dr orloff

Look no further than the shoddiness of the English.  Of course it's a scam.

The French accountants are wrong. There has not been a change to require the declaration of UK rental, that was already the case.  What changed was the method of declaring it - whereas it used to go in one box now it goes in another - and the manner in which the tax relief was applied (ie: from the taux effectif methos to the tax and credit method). In fact the French accountants misunderstand one of the basic principles of taxation, that a resident of France declares their worldwide income and is entitled to relief under tax treaties for that which is taxed outside of France (such as UK rental income).  This is the case in France and most other places.  The French accountants are in short, incompetent.  

Loiuse&Gary, You have completely misunderstood.  You don't have the choice as to where you pay your tax,  you cannot opt out of the DTT.   Your government service pensions are taxable in the UK and not in France, end of story.  France simply has no right to tax this income.  The form you have is to ensure that you are not taxed in the UK for UK sourced income that is taxable in France - bank interest and other pensions.  You are wasting your time.

That won't be much of a change for most people who live in France and have retained a house in the UK since private residence relief will be available for the period in which the house was just that.  If the house is let pending sale then letting relief is available too.  Plus a gain is taxable in France anyway so tax paid in the UK will be offset against the amount due in France.  Plus it looks as if properties will be rebased in April 2015. This measure is really aimed at wealthy buyers of prime London property.   It's not a case of levelling playing fields or loopholes as the UK has had a deliberate policy of not charging CGT for nonresidents in order to attract inward investment.  I suspect this is as much LibDem appeasement and it wouldn't surprise me if once unshackled the Tories reintroduced taper relief.

[quote user="Mrs Trellis"]I'm hoping the CGT doesn't apply to full time residents of France?  The trouble is, it can take so long to sell houses now.  If we rent out the old house meanwhile, I have a nasty feeling we'd be liable for full CGT when/if we sell it. [/quote] If you rented it or even let a family member just live in it then you would.be liable to CGT on a gain.

So what does the €96 social charges relate to? 

I receive an annual statement from HMRC with a tax calculation and amount owed for the year, rather like a simple version of the French Avis D'impot.  It is also available to print off if you sign up for an online account. 

I have always contested social charges on UK rents with the latest HMRC assessment.  They have always accepted it, for example, a 2010/11 statement for the French 2012 declaration (2011 income), so I don't think you will have a problem with your reclaim.  You could always send them the DGFIP email for good measure as well.

I don't think you understand what the proposition means.  It would make no difference whatsoever to how long the government would have to wait for the money.  It doesn't mean the two taxes are merged into one,  it simply means the methods of calculation are unified into one scheme that is based on a banding system, ie: a progressive system, rather than one being a flat rate irrespective of earnings.  It doesn't mean that PAYE is introduced.  It doesn't mean that any changes are necessary to how income tax or social charges are collected or when.  Angela has no say in French fiscal policy, that is an internal matter.  A mistrust of government? that is one area on which I do agree with you, especially the current one. But this is hypothetical and way off the original point of the thread, which is to assist those who have been unfairly subjected to social charges on UK rentals so best to leave these what is fair and what isn't discussions.

I'm happy to disagree.  Actually both the socialists and UMP had some common ground on this as set out [url=http://www.connexionfrance.com/social-charges-income-tax-merger-what-it-means-expats-10895-news-article.html]in this article. [/url]  I don't understand how you don't agree that moving from a flat rate to a banding system isn't progressive (since that is its very definition) but I do agree that the cost of implementing it might be why Mr Hollande has kept quiet about it since assuming office.  Either that or he isn't quite as bold with his statements about taking from the rich and giving to the poor these days.

Without seeing your detailed tax calculation then I cannot be sure.  But my guess is no, you are not.  It sounds like you have been awarded a credit equal to the amount of French tax charged on your UK govt pension, which is how it is supposed to be.  The net result is that you don't pay tax in France on this income but it is taken into account increasing the marginal rates of tax that you pay on income that is taxable in France.  It should have worked like that last year though.

Are you talking about a UK government service pension?  If so then it is not taxable in France but they tax it and then credit the amount of French tax.  If you declared in the same way as last year then there should be no change.  Would need a bit more explanation to advise properly.

Why?  I didn't mention changing when it is paid.   It already is a tax but a flat rate tax.  Merging social charges and income tax would make a far more progressive system.  It would benefit those on lower incomes.  Social charges and income tax could still be paid in the same way but the method of calculation would take into account total earnings.  Hollande was in favour but has gone quiet on the issue.

Mortgage interest is an allowable deduction against rental income, both for UK and French tax calculations.  If that were your only UK taxable income then it would be not taxed in the UK, or taxed at the zero rate, a subtle semantic difference which is actually behind this whole battle with the French tax authorities.    In France the tax and recredit system means the rates you pay on income taxable in France are higher.  Effectively with UK rental you get the benefit of the UK tax allowance but in France that income eats into the French zero rate band, a kind of swap the net benefit of which depends on the rates prevailing at the time.  If you want absolute fairness in the French tax system then surely the integration of the income tax and social charges regimes would be the best petition.

Nomoss, I'm saying neither of those, the first is possible of course although there would most likely be some supplementary income. As a French resident then for UK tax you declare only income that arises in the UK and is taxable in the UK.  You ignore income arising in France and income arising in the UK that is taxable in France.  I do understand the argument that rental income from the UK should be subject to the same tax in France as rental income from France.  But it really is a bit too simplistic.  If that were the case then rental income from anywhere should be subject to the same tax in France but the French tax system simply isn't set up to operate like that.  You would have to change one of the general principles of taxation in France for it to operate as it does in the UK (which is inherently fairer and more progressive), the computer system and all the tax treaties.  The costs would outweigh the tax generated.  Of course a simpler change would be to say the the CSG are not taxes, but it is the French government who have explicity stated that it is a form of taxation to be treated the same for tax treaty purposes as the other taxes - they deliberately included this definition in the tax treaty, it was not defined in the previous treaty which was drafted before the introduction of CSG. Any resident of France can invest in property abroad so the French national is not treated unfairly compared to any other national.  You could equally say that it is unfair that some French residents who invest in an assurance vie pay less tax than someone who has an equal amount of money invested in property in France.  UK rentals and French rentals are quite different forms of income for tax purposes and the fairness argument should apply to either income stream.  All French residents with UK rentals should be treated equally, but they are not, the less well off are being penalised and that is the crux of this whole argument.

[quote user="NormanH"]A French national who is resident in France and has rental income from the UK will also be liable to tax in the UK on that income and therefore should not be taxed also in France.  A UK national who is resident in France and has rental income from France is treated in the same way as the French national. But a retired Uk national would not pay Social charges in France nor NI in the UK, whereas a retired French national would pay these charges for a service both of them can use... [/quote] A retired French national would not pay any social charges on rental income from a UK property.  They are treated the same.  But to compare UK rental income to French rental income is to compare apples and pairs.  Furthermore the retired UK national may well be covered by an S1 and a  payment from the UK to the French governments for the service they use, so it's not something for nothing.

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="dr orloff"] ................... The treaty says that a full credit against tax and social charges is given against UK rental income irrespective of the amount of UK tax paid.  If this is to be interepreted as a credit is only given if the income is above the UK zero rate tax band, as it has been by many tax offices, then this introduces an inherent gross unfairness that penalises those with less income.  For example, someone who pays £1 of tax in the UK as their income falls just above the personal allowance is liable to zero tax or social charges in France.  However, someone who has less income and pays no tax in the UK - or put another way, just £1 less in tax, can be liable to €2,500 of social charges in France on their income.   No reasonably minded individual could possibly think that a situation like that was either fair or intended.  The treaty by the way explicity recognises the social charges simply as a form of taxation, no different in principle to income tax. ........................ [/quote]   I apologise for not quoting your post in full. €2,500 social charges at 15.5% in France represents an income of €16,129 - about £13,800. I, and I imagine, others, would be delighted to get such an amount entirely tax free.  Can UK non residents get so much tax free allowance? Surely it will depend on their world wide income?     [/quote] No problem.  I worded it badly.  For those figures I meant a family income.  For an individual then it would be half, c€1250 in social charges.  But the illustration that those on lower incomes can end up paying huge amounts more in taxes is valid and there are plenty of  instances where that has actually happened.  And it means that the only fair way to apply the credit is to credit in full regardless of whether income is above or below the UK tax threshhold.  Otherwise how could anyone think it fair for the less well off to pay tax when the better off pay nothing?

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="dr orloff"]The treaty by the way explicity recognises the social charges simply as a form of taxation, no different in principle to income tax.[/quote] Indeed it does, but it appears that HMRC has decided otherwise, and has apparently ruled that CSG/CRDS etc are either NOT taxes or else that the Fisc should NOT be charging them on non-residents, and therefore is apparently not giving credit for CRDS/CSG payments against UK income tax on French rental income. I'm using the word "apparently" because although I've seen a write-up of the decision, I haven't seen the original. [/quote] They might think otherwise but that is clear in the tax treaty too, which specifically excludes the CSG as a deduction against UK taxes where the UK has secondary taxation rights.

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Patf"]Norman and Nomoss - I can see your point that to be fair french residents with rent from property in the UK should pay tax on it here in France. But we already pay tax on ours to HMRC (self assessment forms completed each year) so don't want to pay twice [:'(] To change to paying in France would involve a huge amount of complicated admin. One simpler way would be for us to pay tax as usual to HMRC, then they would pass this over to the Impots here. Similar to the health payments for retirees. [/quote] We pay the Fisc tax and social charges on our French rental income. We then declare the income and the French tax paid to HMRC, which then calculates the tax payable in the UK, subtracts from this the tax paid in France and then bills us for the excess. For French residents with UK rental income, the Fisc operates differently to HMRC, and in so doing reduces the French tax take. It wouldn't be a huge amount of complicated admin to do it differently - HMRC is already doing this for UK-residents. I do not begrudge the French residents with UK rental income their "lenient" handling in this matter, though I am jealous! [/quote] To do it differently is not simply a question of admin, it would be a question of renegotiating the tax treaty.  The 100% credit against foreign taxable income is the way the French tax system has operated and continues to operate, the way they want it to operate and the method that they prescribe in the tax treaty.  So they can't just ignore all that and do it a different way.  They would most likely have to renegotiate all the other tax treaties too.  It would actually be an enormous change to the entire system.

Well actually they are treated exactly the same.  A French national who is resident in France and has rental income from the UK will also be liable to tax in the UK on that income and therefore should not be taxed also in France.  A UK national who is resident in France and has rental income from France is treated in the same way as the French national. To say that income from the UK should be treated identically to income from France is to simply ignore the different nature of the income. The treaty says that a full credit against tax and social charges is given against UK rental income irrespective of the amount of UK tax paid.  If this is to be interepreted as a credit is only given if the income is above the UK zero rate tax band, as it has been by many tax offices, then this introduces an inherent gross unfairness that penalises those with less income.  For example, someone who pays £1 of tax in the UK as their income falls just above the personal allowance is liable to zero tax or social charges in France.  However, someone who has less income and pays no tax in the UK - or put another way, just £1 less in tax, can be liable to €2,500 of social charges in France on their income.   No reasonably minded individual could possibly think that a situation like that was either fair or intended.  The treaty by the way explicity recognises the social charges simply as a form of taxation, no different in principle to income tax. Traditionally the French taxman hasn't been interested in the secondary taxation rights for income that is  taxable in other countries, it is either taxable in one or the other.  It's not a loophole, it is the just way the French system works and is available to all French residents as they could invest abroad.  If they were interested in taxing UK taxable income then the tax treaty would have been negotiated such that UK rental income would be also taxable in France but with a deduction for the amount of UK tax paid.  That would be entirely fair and that is what they do with capital gains on the sale of UK property (that one was a loophole as the UK does not levy capital gains tax on non-residents).  So there really are only two fair options, apply the treaty fairly by not further taxing those with lower UK rental incomes or renegotiate it and tax everyone equally.   But to think the French are acting reasonably by applying social charges as they have been is a difficult position to understand.

The degree of backwards compatibility of older lenses and modern camera bodies varies between manufacturers.  All the information on compatibility is out there, a quick search will come up with with the answers.  It can be a little complicated and require an adaptor or two.  Canon for changed their lens mount in 1987 and so lenses older than that cannot be used on modern bodies.  Other manufacturers have greater degrees of compatibility.  It's certainly something to be aware of when choosing a camera system as many old lenses are excellent and can represent better value than modern equivalents.  The degree of automation, autofocus, metering, aperture control and recording of exif data will of course vary with the age of the lens.  Some can be used only as a fully manual lens but actually that can be very satisfying, you can get split prism focus screens fitted to a modern dslr. I chose Pentax in large part due to the fact that any lens ever manufactured for Pentax can be used on a modern dslr.  The basic lens mount hasn't changed since 1975.  Prior to then a simple adaptor allows older screwmounted lenses dating back to the 1950's to be used.  I have picked up quite a few bargains, superbly crafted metal lenses built to last a lifetime and I often prefer them to modern equivalents.

I use Lightroom now for 90% of 'developing'. It's also brilliant as a catalogue of your photos. It's great advantage for photo processing is the non-destructive nature of the way you change the photos, so there is no loss of image quality for each change you make. It saves you a lot of disk space too as there is no need to keep a raw and a jpeg, for example. Photoshop is now reserved for correcting the odd eyesore and the more 'special effects' type of processing - eg: layers and filters. But if the shot is mostly right in the first place then Lightroom is great.

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="dr orloff"]...the quote thing doesn't seem to work.[/quote]I don't know whether this will help in your case, but I had the same problem when using Safari. The only cure I've found is to use Firefox instead. [/quote] Chrome, testing testing

[quote user="Debra"]OK - got it - thank you. Knowing my luck the UK will change their policy not to charge non-residents just in time for my property ownership in the UK to get to the 15 year mark! [/quote] Possible, but more likely is that the French will scrap the 15 year taper relief. They almost did last year.

And another question I spotted: Does the UK charge CGT on French properties? To UK residents, yes. With credit for French tax paid. So the convention has been changed to allow for the converse situation.