UK food and wine in France?

[Richard51]

As an aside, I have boycotted french products sold in UK supermarkets for 25+ years - ever since the cheap imports of bland and tasteless french apples put paid to our orchards (resulting in the loss of numerous wonderful varieties of English apples).  I will always choose UK products over French - it just makes it so much more rewarding when you can save a whole bunch of money by importing your weekly shop from Tesco [:D] 

PS When did you last see a frenchman driving a Vauxhall?

Mrs R51

[Swissie]

A long long time - as they are called Opel here! lol-

Why should a French man living in France buy British products? I am talking about British people living in France, not quite the same.

Agree about apples - British apples are far superior, crunchy, juicy, tasty. But those who were responsible for French apples breaking the back of our orchards- where the customers- nobody forces 'one' to buy anything. WE can influence the market if we try a bit harder to think about what we buy, from where, how it is packaged, etc. I have often called the manager from Tesco and other supermarkets in the autumn, to ask them why they didn't have English apples on sale - then tell him/her I'd rather not buy any, if they have only got foreign. Only takes a few minutes, and the message would get through if more of us did this, perhaps?

[Richard51]

That's the point though - the French will always loyally choose French produce where ever they happen to be.  How come the Brits seem to feel that they shouldn't buy British produce and accuse each other of 'not integrating' or some other stupid rubbish if they want to continue to eat the foods they have grown up with?  I can't imagine any of our French neighbours giving up their traditions and favoured foods - whereever in the world they happened to be.  And I could definitely see them buying their groceries from France if the option was available to them. 

It's back to this bizarre idea that if you move to France then you must imitate your french neighbours and pretend you're not really English.

Mrs R51

PS I don't just single out French apples - I won't buy Israeli produce either...or Nestlé products.

[Gardengirl]

I'm with you on this, Swissie; I won't buy fresh produce in season if it's not from UK. I always speak to the manager about it. Likewise in France; it needs to be local in season, or French. I saw in the market that nectarines were still from Spain; so it's cherries and apricots for us. I always bring apples back with us from UK, one of the things I miss.

[cooperlola]

My nearest neighbour drives an Opel.[:D]

The car thing is interesting though.  Stand on any street corner over here and compare the number of French-built cars to those from other countries and the  proportion in favour of the national product is enormous.  When I buy a car I read all the reviews and test drive the makes and models which are well thought of and which tick the boxes for me - regardless of where built - and buy the one I like best which is within my budget.  I chose my food and other things likewise - if what I want were cheaper if bought from the UK then that's where it would come from.

However, I'm aware that this is a selfish viewpoint and it's true that the French still have a car industry (even if it is on its uppers a bit at the moment) whereas Britain does not.  Maybe a bit more choice based on "national pride" might have helped the beleaguered British economy - I don't know but I'm afraid that unless somebody makes what I want at the right price then I'm not going to buy it - no matter where it's made or grown.  I can't always  afford to be so altruistic I'm afraid.

[YCCMB]

But, tbh, I've yet to come across anyone using these "services" who IS using them to buy everything. And to go back to your "food miles" argument, surely it's less of a "food miles" issue if ONE van is bringing stuff over for 30 or so families, compared to the same 30 or so families going back periodically for a shopping trip?

ETA: Sorry, this was in response to Swissie's last post which I thought I'd quoted but clearly not!

[Swissie]

Mrs R51 - I have always said that it is possible to totally integrate and keep some aspects of your own culture- It would be really sad and empoverish us all if we all became the same in this great melting pot- and it is true that the French tend to go for the 'metlting pot' idea, rather than the 'value the differences' principle more prevalent in the UK (rightly IMHO). There is absolutely nothing wrong, I'll say it again, of wishing for  and bringing some favourites from back home.

PERSONALLY  it makes no sense to import the majority of food stuff and good from 'back home', if you choose to live abroad- on ecological grounds, but in so many ways too. Here we shop in our local village shops, but also both in Swiss and French supermarkets (we live right on the border- and for big super markets it's 5km either way).

I would be very interested in a serious study that would look at the correlation between a/ the adaptation to local foods/ recipes, etc  b/ the ability to communicate in the language (no fancy grammar needed) - and how settled and content  'one' feels in a foreign country. Any budding sociologists out there?

BTW - I have worked with many French colleagues in the UK. All felt very comfortable and happy there, bar 2. Guess which 2 permanently complained about everything British. Only my own observations of course.

[Richard51]

I think adaptation to local recipes is a difficult one as I think the cuisine that the average Brit eats (pre migration to France) is very multicultural.  As a family we regularly eat (and cook) Indian, Chinese, Thai, Mexican, Italian, Greek, Spanish, North African, French etc.  In fact we were probably more au fait with French recipes than our French neighbours are with English recipes.  If anything, we would be less diverse if we adopted French mainstream foods as the French don't seem to eat the same variety of cuisines or have the availability of ingredients to cook them. 

With regard to how settled people feel then it would be difficult to quantify as many contributors to this discussion (both here and on TF) are either second home owners or new émigrés.  In any event, if you move abroad after a certain age, you will always retain strong ties to the country of your childhood.  We have friends who emigrated to Canada 30 years ago who are now talking of 'coming home'.  As I already mentioned we are second home owners and so only spend a few weeks of the year in France.  Maintaining two homes is not cheap (especially when you have three teenagers still at home) so if we can save money by buying from the UK then we will.  Even when we retire we won't move to France permanently - we enjoy our time in the UK as much as the time we spend in France.   At the moment, France suits us as a location for a second home but that doesn't mean to say we won't try somewhere else in the future.  Life is short and the world is a big place.  At the end of the day we can change where we live but we can't change the country of our formative years.  That attachment will remain wherever we find ourselves.

As an aside, the French are just as 'guilty' of wanting to 'isolate' themselves and retain their culture etc.  Have you ever been to the Bute Street area of South Kensington?  You would think you had stumbled across Paris's 21st arrondissement! 

[WJT]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

My nearest neighbour drives an Opel.[:D]

The car thing is interesting though.  Stand on any street corner over here and compare the number of French-built cars to those from other countries and the  proportion in favour of the national product is enormous.  When I buy a car I read all the reviews and test drive the makes and models which are well thought of and which tick the boxes for me - regardless of where built - and buy the one I like best which is within my budget.  I chose my food and other things likewise - if what I want were cheaper if bought from the UK then that's where it would come from.

However, I'm aware that this is a selfish viewpoint and it's true that the French still have a car industry (even if it is on its uppers a bit at the moment) whereas Britain does not.  Maybe a bit more choice based on "national pride" might have helped the beleaguered British economy - I don't know but I'm afraid that unless somebody makes what I want at the right price then I'm not going to buy it - no matter where it's made or grown.  I can't always  afford to be so altruistic I'm afraid.

[/quote]

 

Coops, I have never bought a car in France so could be wrong but I always assumed that why there are so many French cars like Peugeot in France was because of import taxes etc.. making other makers more expensive. Is this not true?

[cooperlola]

I've never noticed an obvious disparity in the prices. 

[cooperlola]

WJT : It's dependent upon models etc but here are a few base model smallest cars from a few manufacuters:

 

C1 : 9200

107 : 9450

Aigo 9100

And these three cars are in fact identical apart from the add-ons!

Pixo  : 8190

Agila : 11090

I10 : 9690

Picanto  : 8240

Twingo : 7990

It seems like a digression but I do think it proves a point as at this end of the market cars (and everything else for that matter) are at their most price-sensitive and yet one sees far more Citroens than Toyotas around in spite of the price advantage of the latter for the same car.

[velcorin]

Sorry Odile, I'll never integrate[:D] I'm too nice to animals, not loud enough, won't eat fois gras or veau, don't enjoy oysters, don't eat much at lunchtime......the list is endless. My wife's family are used to it, and make allowances, when they come to us, I make allowances for them. No Chilli, curry, and first thing I do when I get up in the morning is put the haricots verts on ready for lunch. Sorted.

Due to my mother's illness I seem to be spending many weekends at my parents. My father is in his sixties, I suspect like others of his generation, he can't, and won't cook. So, I do the shopping and the cooking, no change there, as my wife can't/won't cook either[8-|] I have absolutely fallen in love with Waitrose. The meat! All free range, organic, even tells you the name and address of the farm on the packet. Different qualities of the same meat, with different prices. Vegetables! Non of the French "chuck as many chemicals as you can at" stuff. Real fish, not Panga! Pain rustic that doesn't need a chainsaw. Waitrose is pitched at the upper level of the provisions market in the UK, however I do actually find the prices cheaper for some items than, says Le Clerc, which is pitched at the ASDA/Tesco level. The stores are immaculate, staff are incredible, faultless, and I've never had an error on the cuenta. If like me, you have 1 day a week to do absolutely everything, household shopping is a Saturday dash round the nearest InterClerc. If Waitrose could replicate their format in France they'd clean up, on price, quality and ambiance. 'Cept of course they'd never get the necessary permissions, and would have to employ SMICards. So, I'll just have to struggle on. (And don't get me going on the French on-line grocery market[:D])

 

[WJT]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

WJT : It's dependent upon models etc but here are a few base model smallest cars from a few manufacuters:

 

C1 : 9200

107 : 9450

Aigo 9100

And these three cars are in fact identical apart from the add-ons!

Pixo  : 8190

Agila : 11090

I10 : 9690

Picanto  : 8240

Twingo : 7990

It seems like a digression but I do think it proves a point as at this end of the market cars (and everything else for that matter) are at their most price-sensitive and yet one sees far more Citroens than Toyotas around in spite of the price advantage of the latter for the same car.

[/quote]

 

Coops, that is so interesting. I had assumed all these years it was all about price but no, it is patriotism!

Shame the same attitude is/was not prevalent in the UK for it's car industry. Wonder if it is the same for all products? Maybe this is why things are so much more expensive in France, they are just not as price conscience and the industry know it.

[woolybanana]

French manufacturers used to have a much larger share of the market than now, but then maybe their cars were better then. And, yes, it did used to be a point of honour to buy French.

Had the Brits been so inclined, they could have saved the UK car industry, but one problem may have been the fleet car buyers who were easily bought by foreign brands.

[cooperlola]

The last company car I had (over 10 years ago since I worked for an employer), we were only allowed "British" but of course the company struggled to find anything to list which was from a UK company so resorted to things with British badges, or which were manufactured there.   I had a Cavalier (rubbish) and it was made in Germany......

[NickP]

[quote user="Richard51"]As an aside, I have boycotted french products sold in UK supermarkets for 25+ years - ever since the cheap imports of bland and tasteless french apples put paid to our orchards (resulting in the loss of numerous wonderful varieties of English apples).  I will always choose UK products over French - it just makes it so much more rewarding when you can save a whole bunch of money by importing your weekly shop from Tesco [:D] 

PS When did you last see a frenchman driving a Vauxhall?

Mrs R51
[/quote]

When did you last see a frenchman driving a Vauxhall?

The reality of that situation  I think is possibly the French have more sense. If a few more Brits had bought Vauxhall's it might have encouraged more development and you could have got a better product. The Vauxhall Viva your 'aving a larf. The success of the modern "Vauxhall" is down to Opel. Since Opel have dictated Vauxhall design and build quality the brand his vastly improved. When ever I'm in France I see lots of Opel's, but as you say no Vauxhalls.

As to your statement "  I will always choose UK products over French "

 That is your choice  and if I may say so a very sad statemnt, as you are missing out on some wonderful pleasures

 I notice you mentioned that you have a French house, you don't think that's a conflict of interests then?

P.S. So to sum up I can safely assume you don't like France?  [:D]

[Will]

I like foie gras, veal, andouille and oysters but have no wish to be 'integrated' - I'm perfectly happy to be an English person in France. I totally agree with the comments about Waitrose; even the multi-nationals like Aldi (having tried the exercise a couple of days ago) has a better range and even keener prices in UK.

On the off-topic tangent, Vauxhall and Opel have been part of General Motors for years, and since the 1970s/1980s have offered identical vehicles, mostly built in the same plants in Spain, Germany, Poland, Hungary and, yes, UK, where vans and Astras are built. Back in the days of company cars it was a standing joke that a colleague, with a self-imposed British-only policy, had a Spanish-built Vauxhall whereas my Peugeot had been built in Coventry. My late father was involved in the motor industry throughout his life, and had a dislike of Vauxhall build quality up to the 1970s, when he reckoned the company had improved no end (he was subsequently service manager at two Vauxhall dealerships as well as Mercedes, Alfa, Honda, Porsche, BMW and Jensen, whose Healey model was really a dressed-up Vauxhall). His favourite company cars were various Hondas, the Alfasud and the Jensen Healey.

There is plenty of UK motor industry, although only a handful of low-volume manufacturers are British owned. Among the marques built in Britain are Jaguar, Land Rover and Mini. Smaller volume makers to be proud of include Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Aston Martin, MG and Lotus which are all British-built. The real success stories are Nissan, Toyota and Honda which all build large numbers of vehicles in Britain. Ford and Vauxhall still build vans in UK, and Ford also has engine factories.

[velcorin]

GM still build the Astra in the UK Will, then brand it eiither Opel or Vauxhall depending where it's being sold.

I really don't understand the concept of "British" in the case of cars. Renault build the Clio in Turkey, Twingo in Poland. PSA build the C1 in Poland. Merc build the C Class in SA, their 4x4s in the US, the CLK in the US, Smart in Austria. BMW build their engines in the UK, 4x4s in the US, the Z4 in the US, the 3 Series in Austria. Porsche build the Boxster in Finland, the Cayenne in Austria. And I give up on the VAG Group, following them round Europe is bewildering Eg SEAT Ibiza, VW Polo, Audi A1and Skoda Fabia all come off the same production lines in Slovakia..........so what does that make them?!!

We work very closely with the automotive industry OEMS so do have a good insight with what happens. In reality, as Will said of all the brands, Honda and Toyota are the most committed of all to a single country, in this case the UK, the rest are just a complete bunch of polygot mongrels who merely have the corporate headquarters based in the country with which they are identified. Even that is dubious in the case of Daimler (Merc) and VAG (VW, etc) as they are Arab sovereign weath fund owned, and ultimately controlled.

[Russethouse]

Velcorin, re your father and cooking - have you investigated Wiltshire Farm Foods - my mother has them and they are much better than one would expect. There is also no minimum order so it doesn't cost much to try them out.

 

[Richard51]

NickP - I suggest you re-read your post and see if you can spot the contradiction [;-)]

Mrs R51

[Will]

Just in case it is not clear, the reason you see few Vauxhalls and plenty of Opels in France is quite simply that they are known as Vauxhalls in Britain and Opels in the rest of the world (apart from the Holdens in Australia and New Zealand). All are, to all intents and purposes, identical. Vauxhalls and Holdens are therefore right hand drive, though Vauxhalls are usually made on the same production lines as left hand drive Opels.

Therefore the only Vauxhalls you see outside GB are imported ones, hence the comparative scarcity in France. The domestic versions are all Opels. Since the late 1970s they have been the same cars, although the practice of different model names continued into the 1990s apart from a few specialist models (Vauxhall Cavalier = Opel Ascona, later Vectra; Vauxhall Astra = Opel Kadett and so on).

[Richard51]

Will - thanks for the clarification.  What I was trying to point out is the preponderance of French cars in France - viz that the French, on the whole, buy French products.

Mrs R51

[velcorin]

The dealer network system, and the geography of the country has an enormous impact on the French car market. There is not an active buy French thought process. Speaking to my BiLs, I'd go as far as to say that most of them have had such bad experiences with French brands they actively think anything but French [:P] I'm assuming most of you live in rural areas, with limited access to the big cities? Certainly round where we live French cars are not so prevalent.

 

[Will]

[quote user="Richard51"]Will - thanks for the clarification.  What I was

trying to point out is the preponderance of French cars in France - viz

that the French, on the whole, buy French products.

Mrs R51

[/quote]Yes, the majority do. Even if they are made elsewhere so only have a French-sounding name. Also, as Velcorin points out, away from the big cities the alternatives are somewhat limited.

Perhaps it's all part of that strange idea (though one that is coming into vogue elsewhere) that fruit and vegetables can only be eaten if they are grown in France or the Dom-Toms. Imported produce, out of the French season, seems to be a no-no. To such an extent that frozen peas were only on sale during the season when fresh peas were available too - "There is no demand for peas at other times". Though you could buy a bag of peas and carrots, and fish the carrots out...

[Swissie]

And if they live in France, it makes perfect sense. Those in the French community in London, who buy French food, furniture, clothes, send kids to French schools, use French doctors, dentists, lawyers, and only seek the company of other French - I (personally) just do not understand. Why come to London to work and live - why make it their home? Unless it's just for a year or two as a business/work opportunity. (but even then - why not take part, learn, try, experiment, make friends - enjoy).

Most of the French I know in the UK actually live there because they love England, love the differences, and make the best of them.