Cost of living

[Gardian]

I'm sorry to introduce a negative note here, but I have to say that £9,500 p.a. (say €1250 per mth) would be, in my opinion, 'on the edge'.

When you spread all the fixed costs (taxes f, taxes h, cotisations, rubbish collection, etc) over the year, then factor in utilities such as electricity (which can be horrendously expensive), then your disposable income can be significantly reduced.  Someone mentioned capital and the need to have some spare for the inevitable problem / mishap.  Vital.

Also, I don't recall you saying whether the above sum is gross from the UK, or tax paid.  You'd almost certainly pay less over here, but it does need to be accounted for.

You shouldn't be gloomy, but realistic.  

[Dave]

£9,500 per year...I would say yes, we have lived here for 4 years now and manage a nice enough life on less than that. I would take into account the need for stash of some kind to fund any unforseen epenses but that said...No mortgage, No credit cards, low 'council' tax and the fact that you seem to be living a pretty self sufficient life already in the UK you will fit into the life here with ease, our neighbours are the best and share whatever they have in abundance, fruit, nuts, laughter, sadness. At times we have found things hard but when we considered leaving our neighbours rallied and helped us overcome. Bob T is right, without the cost of renovation and no mortgage life can be good, just concentrate on the important expenses one of which will be your top up insurances, research this carefully, we found that we were paying over the odds for not very good cover, one of the items listed was maternity cover, both in our late fifties we hardly needed to be paying that[:D] Don't believe that it is all 'milk and honey' but with some effort it goes a long way towards 'the good life'

best of luck

Dave

[Patf]

If you live in a small town/large village, with public transport to larger towns you could probably manage without a car. Property may be cheaper too. We live on a little more tham 1250euros per month but run a car and a van which cost a lot to keep on the road. Pat.

[WJT]

[quote user="Bob T"]We eat out and travel oftern and also live in the Dordogne, not the expensive bit full of Brits near Sarlat but a little further north.


Bob
[/quote]

Bob, things have changed in recent years in the Dordogne. I don't want to go off topic but just for the record had to pick you up on that [;-)]. We have a property near Sarlat that we bought a few years ago. We looked for over two years in a very large area throughout the South including the whole of the Dordogne. In fact I was heart broken when we learned something about a property not too far from Brantome and couldn't buy it. Of course things have changed now because there is a lot of choice but very little choice at the time. However, I had heard the same as you about the Perigord Noir area until I actually started looking. Actually what has happened over the past recent years is the opposite. We are told and have seen that hoards of Brits have bought in the Northern Dordogne, Charente and Limousin regions.

What has happened here in the Perigord Noir perhaps starting in the 80's, was one of the first and earliest favoured parts by Brits and is why it developed that reputation. I am sure many will remember the reputation of the old Colonials and their wives. [:)] Well from what we understand not many of those are around anymore and the ones that have moved here all of those years ago are quite integrated and speak very good French so in essence blend in with the locals. Of course in summer with the tourists about particularly Sarlat is a different matter. [Www]

But what I have been told and no doubt someone will put me right if I am wrong, is that in Northern Dordogne there has been a new huge influx of Brits. Not many speak the language and many have not integrated all that well (of course that is not to say for all and by the way I am struggling with the language so I am certainly not standing in judgement [:$]) . Of course I think the two most infamous towns of Riberac in the North and Eymet in the south on the border still have a pretty bad reputation in that regard that still holds true.

As far as the cost of living here, I am not the best person to answer because we don't live here permanently at the moment. However, I do spend quite a bit of time here and in my opinion there are things here cheaper than the UK but at the same time there are many things more expensive so I feel it works out to be about the same.

Lillythepink, as far as getting by on £9,500 per year, again just my opinion but I feel this may be a little difficult. If you take Logan's example of necessary top up medical insurance only that leaves you with £8,500 left to cover everything else. Property taxes, fuel, heating, car insurance and maintenance etc.. Perhaps it is possible and these things could be managed but it does sound as if it is well worth looking into as much as possible before making a decision. And of course as others have said, if you have some capital as back up then that could make all of the difference. Best of luck.

[Tresco]

I'm going to go back a little on what I said before.

I know other have said they manage well on comparable (or lesser) sums, which I hope takes the sting out of this, but on reflection that amount does seem to be a bit of a squeeze  It leaves so very little room to manouvre.

I think you'd be in danger of dipping into any capital you had (which should be earning you more money each year, rather than less or the same) on a regular basis.

 

 

 

[KathyC]

I wonder if people are being a bit pessimistic regarding the cost of top up health insurance? We're in the process of getting quotes for when we move next year and we're being offered between 900 and 1200 euros pa for 2 people in late 50s/mid 60s. (And yes, I do understand about needing to top up well above the 100% level.)

[Bob T]

OK, I said that we survive on much less than 9500 per year, it is actually less than 7000 per year. Property taxes this year wer a little over 400 euro. I am not that far in the North of the Perigord Noir being 20 miles or so north of Sarlat. I don't have top up insurance, that is a matter of choice, I don't feel that I need it at the moment and have not needed it over the past 2 years. The cost of heating was mentioned, but that again is very individual. You would need to heat less here than in East Anglia as the weather is generally warmer. I spent loads on my oil fired heating in East Anglia, but nowhere near as much on my wood only heating here and the house is nice and warm.

The car and bikes here save us around £320 pa by not having road tax. The bike insurance bill has dropped from £700 in the UK to £220 here, property taxes were £1200 pa two years ago inthe UK, but are 400 euro here. I don't need to travel 60 miles a day to work here. The list goes on.

Everybody is different and has different expectations, but I can say that for my lifestyle, this is much cheaper.

[Logan]

[quote user="KathyC"]I wonder if people are being a bit pessimistic regarding the cost of top up health insurance? We're in the process of getting quotes for when we move next year and we're being offered between 900 and 1200 euros pa for 2 people in late 50s/mid 60s. (And yes, I do understand about needing to top up well above the 100% level.)[/quote]

If that quote is above 100% then it's a good deal. Insurance costs generally are cheaper than UK but you always have a fight when you make a claim. Rates are much lower in rural areas but also services sometimes are extremely limited. You get what you pay for mostly. If you want to live a quiet rural life in France with a degree of self sufficiency and no debts, you don't need much money to get by. I have often wondered what level the average annual income of  a French paysanne is. I suspect extremely low, certainly much lower than £9.500.

[WJT]

Hi BobT, I thought I had remembered from your blog that you were in the Perigord Noir, so my last post in response to yours was a complete waste of time [blink]. We really aren't that far from you, we are about 11km. NW of Sarlat. Oh well, in any case it does sound as if your taxes are a heck of a lot lower than ours, that is for sure[:(].

Regarding the top up medical insurance for some reason I thought that was mandatory if you move here permanently. It does sound as if it could save a lot of money by not having any. I would be interested to find out what would happen in the case of an accident or serious on going illness. Does anyone know?

[KathyC]

[quote user="Logan"]

 

If that quote is above 100% then it's a good deal.

[/quote]

We're looking at the top price (Argent ) plan with Exclusive. This would be 747euros pa for my husband (age bracket 65-69), full refund for most things and 300% top up for GP/Specialist/Surgeon's fees. As I'm younger and in better health (touch wood) mine will be much less and we may cut a few corners with it.

If you take the SMIC, multiply it by 35 and 52, you get about 14600 euros pa. This would be before tax, social charges and rent/mortgage costs. As we're always told how many French people live on the minimum wage, doesn't this give some idea of the amount that it's possible to live normally on in France?

[andyh4]

Kathy

I think you dropped a zero but interestingly it comes out very close to the 9500GBP being asked about

[Cjlaws]

[quote user="KathyC"]

 

If you take the SMIC, multiply it by 35 and 52, you get about 1460 euros pa. This would be before tax, social charges and rent/mortgage costs. As we're always told how many French people live on the minimum wage, doesn't this give some idea of the amount that it's possible to live normally on in France?

[/quote]

SMIC is 8.27 euros/hour.

8.27 x 35 x 52 = 15,015.40 euros/year.

[Cerise]

Whenever this discussion comes up - which it does pretty regularly - everyone talks about 'managing' and 'getting by' and growing their own lettuce and courgettes.  Now, whilst I appreciate that some people may love chopping and humping wood, only going out once a year and never having a holiday, being self sufficient etc, it seems odd to me that most people who wouldn't have dreamed of doing that kind of thing in UK will suddenly develop passion for same in France.  I lived in rural Cornwall for most of my adult life and loved it BUT and it is a big but, I could afford NOT to have to milk my own goat, could manage some nice weekends away, afford a holiday, go to decent restaurants occasionally, buy as many books as I wanted etc.  I was not rich but our joint incomes meant we were reasonably comfortable even with a large mortgage and a credit card.

Having moved to France whilst in early 40s we managed to dispense with the mortgage and we both work so life is reasonably OK. It would not be OK for me though if my house was cold and I had to haul all the wood as well as work.  I was never self sufficient in UK - grow a few geraniums in pots is about my level of gardening - and whilst I do grow a few veg here I find that the cost of water and the time involved make it not particularly financially viable.

When people are asking about the cost of living I don't think they should be asking whether it is possible to 'get by' on a certain sum, but more whether that sum will be enough to finance a kind of life they will enjoy.  If you never much enjoyed gardening in UK can't think you will suddenly get a passion for it here.  If you love the theatre, cinema and glossy magazines then finding that you don't have enough money to indulge even occassionally is a bit miserable.  Most people who long to come to France may feel stressed, profess to hate politics of UK (don't know why they think it is better here) but they do have a materially reasonable life and a social life - you are supposed to move here to have a better life not a worse one.

I am not knocking the 'good life' and self sufficiency but I think that people should be realistic.  I make all my own cakes and jam for the B & B - but I did that in the UK so it is only a larger version of what I did before.  We enjoy the same hobbies that we had in UK and they cost as much or more than they did there.  I never wanted to have livestock in UK as they are a tie and hard work - I understand those that do but it is not for me.  I haven't stopped wanting to go on holiday just because I live in another country.

Suppose what I am saying is don't try to live someone else's dream - make sure you can afford to live your own , whatever that may be.

Maggi

 

[andyh4]

I am sure you are right Maggi but the point is if your income is (say) 9500 pounds per year, it doesn't matter whether you are in France or England - that is all there is.  And fankly getting by is all you will do in either country.

[Tresco]

Yes, some of the factors maggi mentions are why I revised my opinion, Andy.

I think the Original Poster needs to work out exactly what they spend now, on what seems to be a very pleasant life, and see how close to (or far away from) £9,500 it is.

 

[BJSLIV]

I also think that as the money gets tighter in later years the social security structure in the UK is probably more generous, what with pension credits etc. Even if things are equal I think it would be easier to winkle out one's full entitlement in English rather than in a foreign language.

On a related topic, I have noticed increasing numbers of British, probably retired, couples in our local Aldi / Lidl stores who are obviously doing their full weekly shop.

Now I enjoy hunting around these shops and there are certainly bargains and some novelties to be had. However if I was doing all my shopping there I wouldn't feel that I was truly having much of a French life experience. These discount shops make no secret that they are catering to the poorer  (underclass?) sectors. Is this the new growth sector?  British migrants trying to keep up appearances on inadequate budgets?

[Logan]

[quote user="Cjlaws"][quote user="KathyC"]

 

If you take the SMIC, multiply it by 35 and 52, you get about 1460 euros pa. This would be before tax, social charges and rent/mortgage costs. As we're always told how many French people live on the minimum wage, doesn't this give some idea of the amount that it's possible to live normally on in France?

[/quote]

SMIC is 8.27 euros/hour.

8.27 x 35 x 52 = 15,015.40 euros/year.

[/quote]

How many French paysannes or small farmers pay themselves the SMIC rate? My guess would be none or at least very few. Also pensions for farmers is dire. Hence the reason they almost never actually retire and scrape by on very little. My point is if that's the life you have always known it is quite acceptable. If you move to France having been used to a decent disposable income and then try living on the SMIC rate here you may find it tough going. However I repeat my claim that £9,500 a year is enough to live on.

[Cerise]

Yes I agree that a fixed income is a fixed income and every one is entitled to chose, but I think for example not having top up insurance is playing Russian roulette.  We pay 95 euros a month (age 46 and 51) and we haven't needed to use it much, but what if we were seriously ill over a number of months tomorrow?  Generally speaking the Secu coughs up 70%, but 30% of seriously ill could be a lot of money.  Seriously ill once happened to me in UK (fortunately I recovered) where I went from being at work and fine one day to very ill and 5 months off work the next - no warning.  If the same thing were to happen here would not like to think either of us were lying in hospital bed worrying about the potential bill.  We don't live in a very expensive area but in our department not very many people have local taxes of only 400 euros (ours add up to over 1200 without counting CSG)   As another poster says, finding out about your entitlements - if any - is a great deal easier in your own language.

It is true that many French people live on very low incomes but they are used to it, their families are here so they don't have to factor in trips to see family into daily budget, and it is not for nothing that the French are the greatest users of antidepressants.  Being poor is not fun and living a simple life is fine in theory so long as in practice you have enough money to cope with emergencies.  The car going wrong or the washing machine blowing up assume horrific proportions when there is no spare cash.  In England in moments of financial difficulty I have gone out and got an extra part-time job (when I bought first house worked 3 evenings as a barmaid as well as full time job).  Even my old dad took a paper round (aged 73!) a few years ago when he wanted to have a bit extra for something.  Sadly in France those possibilities are just not there - at least legally - so when the going gets tough there is less chance of being able to help yourself easily.

[Dave]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

I also think that as the money gets tighter in later years the social security structure in the UK is probably more generous, what with pension credits etc. Even if things are equal I think it would be easier to winkle out one's full entitlement in English rather than in a foreign language.

On a related topic, I have noticed increasing numbers of British, probably retired, couples in our local Aldi / Lidl stores who are obviously doing their full weekly shop.

Now I enjoy hunting around these shops and there are certainly bargains and some novelties to be had. However if I was doing all my shopping there I wouldn't feel that I was truly having much of a French life experience. These discount shops make no secret that they are catering to the poorer  (underclass?) sectors. Is this the new growth sector?  British migrants trying to keep up appearances on inadequate budgets?

[/quote]

Oh dear...now I am in the 'underclass'.....[:(]

[Poppy]

Same here Dago think I saw you in Lidl today

[KathyC]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Kathy

I think you dropped a zero but interestingly it comes out very close to the 9500GBP being asked about

[/quote]

Thanks for noticing, I've edited this.

[KathyC]

[quote user="Cjlaws"][quote user="KathyC"]

 

If you take the SMIC, multiply it by 35 and 52, you get about 1460 euros pa. This would be before tax, social charges and rent/mortgage costs. As we're always told how many French people live on the minimum wage, doesn't this give some idea of the amount that it's possible to live normally on in France?

[/quote]

SMIC is 8.27 euros/hour.

8.27 x 35 x 52 = 15,015.40 euros/year.

[/quote]

Sorry, I must 've used out of date figures.

[KathyC]

[quote user="Poppy"]Same here Dago think I saw you in Lidl today[/quote]

We've got one now on the Isle of Wight and it's pretty good. Better get out my chav gear!

[KathyC]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

.

On a related topic, I have noticed increasing numbers of British, probably retired, couples in our local Aldi / Lidl stores who are obviously doing their full weekly shop.

[/quote]

But if you're living on a pension in the UK are you going to be doing all your shopping in Waitrose? Don't most people economise when they retire?  Retirement's not generally a time for cruises and expensive cars, despite what advertisers and pension providers try to tell us.

(Apologies for multiple replies, I'm really not trying to take over!)

[hastobe]

[quote user="KathyC"][quote user="BJSLIV"]

.

On a related topic, I have noticed increasing numbers of British, probably retired, couples in our local Aldi / Lidl stores who are obviously doing their full weekly shop.

[/quote]

But if you're living on a pension in the UK are you going to be doing all your shopping in Waitrose? Don't most people economise when they retire?  Retirement's not generally a time for cruises and expensive cars, despite what advertisers and pension providers try to tell us.

(Apologies for multiple replies, I'm really not trying to take over!)

[/quote]

Sheesh I hope not - spent all my working life not being able to do that kind of stuff becasue of work / kids etc - we plan to live our retirement to the full [:)] (Though would rule out cruises - they seem life an upmarket version of Butlins to me - herded around like sheep..my idea of hell!)

Kathie