Rugby World Cup 3rd XV

[Gardian]

Raindog ............

But stats can paint a confusing picture.

I've been a bit disappointed with Italy this season. I'm sure that part of that is Bortolami being out through injury + Troncon retiring.  Yes, if they'd had 2 or 3 better backs, but if we had had all of our better players + this bloke or that bloke not having retired. 

So, IMO, I don't that they've improved.  I think that England is going through a particularly bad patch and we made them look better than they are.  That's not to say the Italians won't further improve under Mallett - I hope they do.  

 

[UlsterRugby1999]

Gardian - your response would indicate that you felt I was having a dig. Not so sir. I posted the unlucky Italian question after reading the various professional reports on the BBC - Planet Rugby and so on.

[quote]The second half was scrappy at best with England struggling for ball and conceding penalty after penalty[/quote]

[quote]Ball retention was also poor and with 15 minutes remaining, Wasps' youngster Danny Cipriani replaced Wilkinson as Ashton continued to make changes.[/quote]

[quote]With time running out, Italy started to open up and only a superb tap tackle from Noon halted a try-scoring opportunity for Kaine Robertson.

It was one of several fine tackles from the Newcastle centre who was solid in defence throughout and England's best performer behind the scrum.[/quote]

Planet Rugby talks about how England Nearly Threw It Away

[quote] Once again, in the final 20 minutes the English went to sleep, and Italy so nearly nicked it. In the final minutes, trailing by four, the Azzurri had three attacking line-outs in promising positions, but each time one of the England jumpers stuck up a big mitt and ruined Italy's possession. [/quote]

As for Ireland, well I have stated my thoughts often on this forum. We didnt deserve to win. You cannot lie down for 50 minutes against the French EVERY time you play them and expect to come back. But I was glad to see the lads dump O'Stagnants failed game plan and play from their hearts and actually perform for the last 30 minutes. Maybe just maybe - but then again Comical O'Wingnut is still in charge and still making all the out of touch post match slabberings. [:@] [:@]

[raindog]

Mind you ulster, the Irish forwards looked pretty good in the second half. But with OD being so out of form it dosen't seem to be working very well behind does it? But they certainly seemed to show up France's weak point - their pack. The last game of the 6N in Cardiff should be amazing. But the French back 3 are world class - my God they can move.

Gardian, I think England's problems lie alot deeper than having a few players injured. Something fundamental ain't working - i'm off to read the match reports and try and find out. See ya later.[:)]

[Quillan]

Saw USAP play on Saturday, Monty was bad again with only one instance of playing normally in the second half. He must be thinking "take the money, house and car and I'll retire next season' because that's how he is playing. Such a disappointment after the World Cup.

Anyway caught up with Saturdays games yesterday. Ireland, well I don't think they were that bad compared to say England. Wales, well they haven't played a decent team yet, I think France will stop them in their tracks, well I hope so. As for England, well they were lucky Italy made so many stupid mistakes, missing balls in lineouts, not able to catch etc. In the second half England just blew up. Why the ball was kicked so much I don't know. Even Moore could be heard screaming the same same question in the background of the TV commentary. If Italy had played better and England had not fallen apart in the second half the game would have been better, more exciting, but I think the score would have stayed about the same. If I had written this on Sunday I think I might have thought the same as others, England didn't deserve to win, but in reality neither would have Italy with the quality of rugby played by both teams. It will be interesting to see how Italy developes over the rest of the tournament, at least they have yet to come last in the table this year. I guess my money would have to be on France this year. Got my tickets for the Paris game last week, gone up to 48 Euros, I hope I have spent my money wisely.

[dragonrouge]

Quillan 48 euros well one never knows!   I had a bet yesterday a bottle of champagne with our local butcher that Wales would beat France at Cardiff.

Its the culture and background that was at the bottom of the thought process not necessarily reality.  But again and I whilst I take your point as to our playing not too good sides as they say 'the points are on the board'

You cannot re-write history.

Best of luck in Paris perhaps you may need it.

[Quillan]

[quote user="dragonrouge"]

You cannot re-write history.

Best of luck in Paris perhaps you may need it.

[/quote]

Indeed you cannot. It's like the Ref really if it goes your way he is brilliant, if it goes against you then he is a fool but when that final whistle blows the score stands and that's it.

Unless something really magical happens I think we will need all the luck in the world to beat France, if anyone can beat them at the moment it 'might' be Wales but we shall see, it might be alright on the night, fingers crossed.

[Gardian]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]

Gardian - your response would indicate that you felt I was having a dig.

[/quote]

UR99 .................

No, not at all.  Like I said, we were good in the 1st half and poor in the 2nd.  At least we scored a couple of good tries, which augurs well.

Just sent this email to my Welsh pal - he's probably still choking on his lava bread!!

Just felt that I should point out that following our convincing win yesterday afternoon, it is perfectly feasible for England to win the 6 Nations if:

• we knock up 3 more decisive wins against Scotland, Ireland and (starting with) the French in 2 wks time

• Wales lose to Italy in Cardiff, followed by a 3-3 draw with France in the final match

Discuss !!!!

[raindog]

ha ha  [:)]

[Patf]

Don't give up  Raindog! Guardian,  that was almost the scenario I gave to husband while watching on Sunday. He's theexpert and keeps me right, though he tends to blame the refs for being biased more than I do. Did you see the article in the Sunday Times where Stuart Barnes argued that JonnyW. should be dropped in favour of Cipriani? But that was before the match. The other "experts" disagreed with him though.  I still blame Brian Ashton.[:@]

[UlsterRugby1999]

Good man Gardian - do let us know what your friends response is. That is so long as it doesnt breach the decency rules [;-)]

In rugby, of course, anything is possible. Thats one of those extra elements of the game and I suppose what keeps us coming back time after time. This isnt a dig, to be sure, but given the Red Rose performances in the RWC, how many of us really gave them a chance after the drubbing by the Boks. Yet, they ground it out and did themselves proud - poor form or no poor form.

I'm still not convinced that binning Ashton is the right road to go down. He hasnt been there long enough. He was one of the key factors in the RWC results and he has a great rugby brain. Wilkinson cannot be binned. His tactical play and kciking are still one of the major arrows in the English quiver and until you get someone who can fill his boots completely (and put in some of the hits that he has being doing lately (maybe one or two a wee bit high or late) then you would be crazy to drop him.

In the meantime, where is plod - what happened to the Glaws man. Taken by the Tigers at Kingsholm. Wow.

[raindog]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]

I'm still not convinced that binning Ashton is the right road to go down. He hasnt been there long enough. He was one of the key factors in the RWC results 

[/quote]

ayup ulster! (manage the download ok?) [:)]

Not so sure about that. According to the Dayglo and Catt "revelations" it was the players who got together themselves to try and sort things out after that first thrashing from SA because there was no direction or advice coming from "the top". Apparently there's hardly any game plan and Ashton seems to leave them to their own devices. Something wrong with the management somewhere.

It's true, where's plod? On hols?

[raindog]

A good piece on Planet Rugby summing-up the 6N so far.

extract: "So in Scotland and Italy we have two teams with

as much imagination as a bored donkey, while England are only

marginally better themselves. Ireland, bless them, are in serious

denial, and Wales are promising much without delivering a great deal,

relying on good fortune as much as good rugby. Leaving us with France,

the only side capable of creating and finishing genuine scoring

chances."

Just about says it all.

[Gardian]

[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]

Good man Gardian - do let us know what your friends response is. That is so long as it doesnt breach the decency rules [;-)]

[/quote]

It breached all the rules, not just the decency ones.

[UlsterRugby1999]

So Gardian that means that you're not telling then [;-)]

Raindog - nice piece from Planet Rugby and pretty fair all round comments I guess. I cant believe that Ashton has no game plan. Remember, its not that long ago that he was with Ireland and he was quite well thought of as I recall. I'd be more inclined to believe that the old personality clash syndrome was at play here.

[raindog]

Seen in the Times - I agree

" The decision-making of Ashton, the head coach, is a bone of contention for Michael Lynagh, who wonders whether Phil Vickery, with his injury problems, is the right choice as captain. “In the Wales match, Brian Ashton takes off Vickery, his anointed captain, just when England are starting to go down the plughole,” Lynagh said. “I don’t care if that was part of the pre-game plan; what you don’t do when it’s all hands on deck is remove your captain. If Phil Vickery cannot last 80 minutes, then do not pick him. Get someone else. A captain needs to be there."

[plod]

Nice to be missed - I've been away. Pity about the Tigers' game,especially as both teams had many players missing. England are very disappointing; I thought Wilkinson should be dropped but reckon he is now the David Beckham of rugby - undroppable. But he was OK against Italy. Something is wrong and it may well be, as Lynagh says, the coaching staff. Getting to the final of the RWC was probably a bad thing in some ways as it has covered up the weaknesses in the England set-up. I still think France are vulnerable but don't know if they are that vulnerable.

C'mon Glaaawwwsss!

[Patf]

Going back to the England Wales match - did you notice that just before halftime the Wales coaches came charging down with faces like thunder, (is one Australian?) to give the team a lecture, and it obviously worked. Whereas the England coaches - complacent, and look at the consequences.

[raindog]

[quote user="Patf"] Whereas the England coaches - complacent [/quote]

The players as well........[:D]

[UlsterRugby1999]

It may have slipped your notice, but Ulster had a spectacular 38 - 13 win over the Dragons in Belfast on Friday. I knew that you all would have wanted to know this so I thought I'd post it for you [;-)]

It seems that the influence of Matt Williams has had a very positive effect.

plod - another wee blip by the Glaws again this weekend. Maybe the lads are just cream crackered. That said, you still hold the number one slot. 

[Quillan]

And USAP got stuffed (well and truly) by Toulouse on Saturday.

[plod]

By all accounts they were a bit unlucky against Leicester whereas at Bristol they were poor. They are still top but do seem wobbly at the moment. I am mystified by Ashton's selections. You pick a prop (Payne) one week and the next match he isn't even in the squad. Mind you the French coach is mixing his team up also.

[raindog]

Balshaw to start again. How can this go on? Lewsey is in great form at the moment. I'm surprised Rob Andrew doesn't throw a bit of weight and sort this out.[:(]

[Alan Zoff]

It's all very well hoping for flashes of brilliance from one or two superstars but there's no substitute for some central figurehead the team all look up to and who will drive them on, giving self-belief - or when needed a kick up the backside - right to the last whistle. A Martin Johnson.

In football, neither Bobby Moore nor Emlyn Hughes were the most skilfull ball-players but you somehow knew the team had a better chance if they were on the pitch. I felt England lost that when Johnson retired and haven't yet replaced it.

[UlsterRugby1999]

Alan Zoff -  you are now beating my drum. This is also the reason why I dont specifically blame Ashton for the state of things. I just dont believe that anyone in the English team takes this on board and tries to lead from the front. I thought that Nick Easter might be the man but I'm not so sure now.

Big news today though is that Comical O'Stagnant has, for once in his miserable life, done the right thing and brought Tommy Bowe in. Mind you, its against Scotland so its not a real gamble I guess [;-)][;-)]

[raindog]

[quote user="Alan Zoff"]

It's all very well hoping for flashes of brilliance from one or two superstars but there's no substitute for some central figurehead the team all look up to and who will drive them on, giving self-belief - or when needed a kick up the backside - right to the last whistle. A Martin Johnson.

[/quote]

Very true - but another problem is that England don't seem able to play for a full 80 minutes anymore.