BREAKING NEWS ON EXPAT HEALTH COVER

[LisaJ]

Jim Murphy is the Minister for Europe; it is great news that he is coming to France and that the negotiations are at such a high level. After all the postings on his FCO blog he should be very well informed about the real issues.

Let's hope that today goes well for him and for us.

regards

Lisa

[Gastines]

On the Teletext News this morning about the withdrawal of Free health care to 7000 UK 'ers living in France and visit of J.Murphy.M.P.

[Lenht1951]

[:@] Why don't these people/news organisations listen. It's not FREE and by everybody saying so public sympathy will not in our favour.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Lenht1951"][:@] Why don't these people/news organisations listen. It's not FREE and by everybody saying so public sympathy will not in our favour.[/quote]

Surely you don't expect news organisations to get their facts right?  [;-)]

In terms of public sympathy, I don't think we can expect much of that.  Probably more like indifference, I would think.

I suspect that as far as far as the UK public is concerned, we are a bunch of wine drinking, lotus eating, comfortably off, middle class expats who abandoned the UK to sit around street cafes in the sun all day.  Just look at the typical 'expat photos' they publish - healthy, wealthy, grey haired executive types sitting on their patio like something out of a life insurance policy advert...

We are sustaining (and possibly winning) the battle, not through sympathy, but because we represent an opportunity for Mary Honeyball and Jim Murphy et al, to gain political advantage.  And if that gets us a result, then fine.......

 

[Lenht1951]

Quote 'Just look at the typical 'expat photos' they publish - healthy, wealthy, grey haired executive types sitting on their patio like something out of a life insurance policy advert...'

 Knew I'd gone wrong somewhere!!!! [blink] You can tell by the brick shaped Ferrari..

[bozzy]

I'm new here. 

After some years of preparation for the life of Riley - we, my wife and I, are a bit devastated to find that the price of early retirement to France could be misery for the partner who might become chronically sick, and bankruptcy for the survivor, or an ignominious return to beg for care somewhere as yet unknown in the UK, leaving the home so carefully chosen, friendships so carefully formed, the mode de vie so deeply appreciated and all that back there in France.

The problem seems straightforward: -

if you remain in the UK, you are guaranteed some form of care as long as it is available under the NHS etc etc. but in France, you have a substantial period during which you risk losing everything if one of you falls chronically ill.

We all know what the NHS means these days, but at least it is some comfort if the very worst scenario occurs. For the other scenarios - you have to go private and/or carry PHI anyway. If you leave for France, the same circumstances will leave you forced to pay for any treatment rejected by your insurer as being for a "chronic" complaint, and with an exclusion on any subsequent insurance as the condition will be "pre-existing", so you will continue to pay as long as you accept and can get French healthcare, and no doubt you will also be in breach of the requirement to hold comprehenseive health cover whatever that is.

In other words, we can only get private insurance for temporary health problems we have not yet had, and on a year by year basis. Sounds like excellent value. However unless we can arrange cover for every malady known, and on a continuous basis, we'll be required to pay the full bill if we go to France, or at least until we have been resident in France for 5 years... or we are of Gordon Brown acceptable retirement age.

There seem to be two savers: first the 5 years of residence, where we pay tax etc for 5 years, then we are allowed to pay CMU cotisations as well. Just as expensive as private insurance BUT WITHOUT EXCLUSIONS!!!  The second is where we manage to find some form of employment, which will presumably make us very popular with anyone who considers we are taking employment away from a french person, and is not quite what we had in mind. Don't know why I even mention that really as we all know that the market for ageing Britanniques, desk jockeys all, is not going to be lively. In fact I doubt it has had a pulse for the last ten years.

Anyone care to straighten out my understanding of the problem, or tell me it's just a bad dream?

Also seems to me that this is a problem across the EEC - it is VERY likely to prevent or deter a great deal of migration if the price could be so high.

Good luck and good health to us all.

 

[cooperlola]

You seem to have summed that up rather well!

Yes, it is a bad dream; the only problem being that you are unlikely to wake up from it soon!

There are still countries in Europe who have not decided to take their interpretation of the so-called "free movement" pricipal to such extremes (Austria) but I can certainly see more and more trying to join in.  Another bizarre point in all this as that the new states who joined the EU most recently (mostly Eastern European countries) were obliged to have universal state healthcare in place for all EU citizens, as a condition of being able to join the Union, whilst the old guard is allowed to do a thing like this.  Makes yer blood boil (when that is probably not the best idea!)

[Boiling a frog]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2007/11/15/wfrance115a.xml

For a report on Jim Murphy,s visit to Paris

[cooperlola]

From Stephanie Gaillard TODAY (Social Security department spokesperson.)

Les choses ont bien avancé et nous sommes maintenant dans la dernière ligne droite. Nous espérons pouvoir publier le texte rapidement. N'hésitez pas à consulter régulièrement notre site www.securite-sociale.fr

 

Cordialement

Stéphanie Gaillard

 

Things are well advanced and we are now on the home straight. We hope to be able to publish the text shortly. 

---

[cooperlola]

I have posted this elsewhere but just to let everybody know that we have today heard from two people whose CPAMs have given them continued CMU cover on the basis of the 5 year rule.[:D]

[makfai]

[quote user="cooperlola"]I have posted this elsewhere but just to let everybody know that we have today heard from two people whose CPAMs have given them continued CMU cover on the basis of the 5 year rule.[:D][/quote]

 

Thats is excellent news!

[ams]

Great news. Any idea as to what evidence they had to produce to enable them to continue in the CMU. Perhaps a copy of the letter of confirmation could be useful for those here 5 years plus and may be having problems with their local CPAM.

 

Just 19 months to go until the 5 year rule applys for us.

 

ams

[cooperlola]

One had a titre de sejour as they were here before these were "no longer required".  When/if we have sight of the letter itself, we will let you know.  It certainly seems to confirm that CPAMs have a level of autonomy, as many continue to be rejected on the same grounds.

[krusty]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2007/11/15/wfrance115a.xml

For a report on Jim Murphy,s visit to Paris

[/quote]

To my mind Jim has got the wording spot on, quote Jim Murphy from the above

"I outlined our strong concerns which are that our citizens are used to a system of free national health. British citizens came to live in France under a set of entitlement rules that were pretty clear at the time. Those rules should stay in place for those UK citizens,"

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

One had a titre de sejour as they were here before these were "no longer required".  When/if we have sight of the letter itself, we will let you know.  It certainly seems to confirm that CPAMs have a level of autonomy, as many continue to be rejected on the same grounds.

[/quote]

Rather than CPAMs having a level of autonomy, I suspect it's more a case of them just not being geared up to handle the five year residency rule because it was never an issue in the the past.  Their internal procedures for processing UK E106s will probably not even mention the five years, so if it's not on the list of qualifying criteria, then they will refuse the continuance application.  Routine administrative process.

If you formally appeal the decision on the basis of Art L.XXX of the droit de sejour, then they are legal obliged to review their decision in the light of this.

Once a few examples of re-acceptance occur, then the snowball effect will start.

 

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"][quote user="cooperlola"]

One had a titre de sejour as they were here before these were "no longer required".  When/if we have sight of the letter itself, we will let you know.  It certainly seems to confirm that CPAMs have a level of autonomy, as many continue to be rejected on the same grounds.

[/quote]

Rather than CPAMs having a level of autonomy, I suspect it's more a case of them just not being geared up to handle the five year residency rule because it was never an issue in the the past.  Their internal procedures for processing UK E106s will probably not even mention the five years, so if it's not on the list of qualifying criteria, then they will refuse the continuance application.  Routine administrative process.

If you formally appeal the decision on the basis of Art L.XXX of the droit de sejour, then they are legal obliged to review their decision in the light of this.

Once a few examples of re-acceptance occur, then the snowball effect will start.

 

[/quote]

 

Or it could be that the French Sociale Securite have now got their act together.Instead of making announcements before telling CPAM they have this time been sensible and told CPAM the new rules before making the announcement

[cooperlola]

"got their act together"?  A bit of a stretch of the imagination, BaF!

[Sunday Driver]

Baf

The five year rule isn't new - it already exists. 

The delay in the DSS issuing the CPAM circular is (hopefully) due to them having to tackle the legal aspect of changing the rules for exisiting CMU affiliates back to what it was before.  Given the new importance of the five year rule for those who will nevertheless be excluded, I expect the circular will include a reminder about it.

 

[Helen]

'Or it could be that the French Sociale Securite have now got their act together'

They certainly haven't here. We hadn't received an expulsion letter but had received a letter  at the end of last month asking for our titre de sejour to which we had replied quoting 5 year rule and enclosing old titire de sejour, and attestations to 5 year residence fromthe Maire.

 This morning we received a frightening letter  from  USSARF  dated 19th November : ' suite aux informations fournies par la CPAM, nous avons proced a la radiation de votre compte Regime General sous condition de residence (CMU) a effet du 30/09/2007.

Very scary as I was down to my last few needles and testing strips and  had planned to go to the pharmacy today. Thoughts of what happens in the US where I know of  several people  who have to reuse their disposable needles to save money came to mind.

Went to town immediately furnished with all the documentation . Realised that they were on strike but the borne was working, we got an attestation from the machine dated from today with no problem. Then we saw one man was working and went to see him. Some time later and several phone calls all he could say was that  the problem was because everything was in transition. We were still in at least until March and that it was possible(very vague here) that we might be able to continue because of the five year titre. He didn't know of any further circulaire from the SECU. He once more took  photocopies of all our documentation.

I was able to fill my prescription but I'm still shaking.[:(]

 

 

[Ron Avery]

You'll have to explain this one Helen, because I think you are getting unduly alarmed and confusing people over the correspondence that you received. Nobody is being kicked out of the CMU at the moment with or without an E 106 unless unusually you have one expiring in November 2007. 

I don't understand why you received a letter asking for your T de S. Who was it from?  I live in 12 and nobody I know has even yet received a letter about continuing membership of the CMU.  We did get a letter, as did everybody in the CMU,  in September asking for proof of continued residence which for EU citizens was simply a copy of your tax return, it did not ask for any documents to be returned, is this what you are talking about?   This was then followed by a letter saying that they had not received the proof of residence because the data had not been put into the computer due to the uncertainty about continued membership of the CMU.  The residency proof exercise would have happened without the CMU membership issue. USSRAF are only the collection agent for CMU contributions and will go on collecting until told differently, they cannot stop your cover, only CPAM can do that and that would be by cancelling your CV and your attestation which they would tell you about in writing.  In any case the worst case would be if your attestation had been cancelled you would have had to pay for your prescription it would not have been refused to you.  I know it is easy for us who are not dependant on drugs etc to remain calm about this, but you really must try not too worry so much.[:)]

[Helen]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

You'll have to explain this one Helen, because I think you are getting unduly alarmed and confusing people over the correspondence that you received. Nobody is being kicked out of the CMU at the moment with or without an E 106 unless unusually you have one expiring in November 2007. 

I don't understand why you received a letter asking for your T de S. Who was it from?  I live in 12 and nobody I know has even yet received a letter about continuing membership of the CMU.  We did get a letter, as did everybody in the CMU,  in September asking for proof of continued residence which for EU citizens was simply a copy of your tax return, it did not ask for any documents to be returned, is this what you are talking about?   This was then followed by a letter saying that they had not received the proof of residence because the data had not been put into the computer due to the uncertainty about continued membership of the CMU.  The residency proof exercise would have happened without the CMU membership issue. USSRAF who are only the collection agent for CMU contributions and will go on collecting until told differently, they cannot stop your cover, only CPAM can do that and that would be by cancelling your CV and your attestation which they would tell you aboiut in writing.  In any case the worst case would be if your attestation had been cancelled you would have had to pay for your prescription iyt would not have been refused to you.  I know it is easy for us who are not dependant on drugs etc to remain calm about this, but you really must try not too worry so much.[:)]

[/quote]

• OK Ron, sorry but yes I was concerned.
• We received the normal letter asking for all documentation at the start of Sept..... duly done by taking documentation to Villefranche
• Then the follow up circular  letter asking again for documentation ... again done.This time  by recorded delivery
• Then another letter, this time from Rodez from an individually named person asking for our titre de sejour . . I don't know why we received this. At the time I thought it was possibly a stalling mechanism because I have an ALD until 2024 or perhaps because they were confused because oh was born in Kenya. We responded  with documentation to 5 years residency
• This morning letter from URSSRAF saying that our account was cancelled as of the 30 Sept , hence journey to Villefranche this afternoon. Our only explanation (we certainly didn't receive one from the CPAM) is that Rodez USSRAF is totally behind with their accounts.It wouldn't be the first time, last year they managed to send out the first cotisation demand 2 months late.

You're right I could have paid for the prescription, but I can't do that indefinitely and  one never knows what other things could happen.  My problem was that I thought we were  OK, certainly until March  and hopefully indefinitely ,this letter saying our account had been closed was  worrying and I admit I am a worrier.

[cooperlola]

I reckon we're all worryers now, Helen, even if we weren't before. Every CPAM letter is a possible harbinger of doom these days!  Every twinge I feel turns into possible potential long-term surgery.  I wonder how  many people on this site and elsewhere will avoid going to the docs at all costs in the fear that they might be diagnosed with something a private insurer will refuse to cover?  The stress level amongst all of us must be going through the roof; your reaction is not in the least bit surprising, imo.

[Ron Avery]

Helen

To put your mind at rest, I received the same letter from URSSAF at Rodez  today telling me of my expulsion from the CMU with effect from 30/09/2007.  I phoned them up and they said quite curtly, (maybe they have had a lot of similar calls[:'(] )........  that "the letter is an error and queries should be made with the local CPAM."  Which I do not intend to do.

It would appear that these letters are the latest in a chain reaction in a computerised system and follow the failure of the CPAMs in 12 and other departments to input the residency data sent to them in September, which in turn generated the "we have not received letters" from the CPAMs,  which were also issued in error.

This is not a direct result of any CMU expulsion policy or decisions, only the next step in what would have happened to people who did not provide evidence of residency.

What they are not saying is if they are stopping collection of money so this needs keeping an eye on because as you mentioned this year they collected two payments in one go in March/April as they forgot to collect one in December 2006.  What made me laugh (not) was the note at the bottom saying "make sure you have sufficient funds in your bank to cover these payments". 

[Helen]

Thankyou Ron,  I'm glad that you were able to sort that out. Its stupid really in the UK I wouldn't have hesitated to contact them by phone. I'm fine with writing and face to face French but I do everythiing I can to avoid telephone conversations.

[rothrugby]

Hi

Tried to check out the infamous statement about our expulsion from the CMU on the social security website.

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/index.html

It seems to have been removed, or the link to it via http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/international.htm has.

Very Interesting!!!!!