makfai Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 [quote user="Deimos"]I just had another look at 2004/38/EC and there is a publicity section; Article 34:Member States shall disseminate information concerning the rights and obligations of Union citizens and their family members on the subjects covered by this Directive, particularly by means of awareness-raising campaigns conducted through national and local media and other means of communication.No way have they done this. With the rules becoming effective 10 days after they were announced on http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm there was no time. also, given that they have full contact information for everybody affected by these changes they have the easy option to write to everybody - which they have not done.Ian[/quote]I have made an official complaint to the EU about this (please see below). As I have previously mentioned, anyone can submit the same or a different complaint /petition or contact the EU Ombudsman at (click on word to link to site)PetitionComplaintEU Ombudsman COMPLAINTa) EU Directive 2004/38EC which gave rise to the French Government’s legislation · ‘LOI no 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 relative à l’immigration et à l’intégration’ and · Décret n° 2007-371 du 21 mars 2007 relatif au droit de séjour en France des citoyens de l'Union européenne, des ressortissants des autres Etats parties à l'Espace économique européen et de la Confédération suisse ainsi que des membres de leur famille’ was published in April 2004. Member States were required to bring into force the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive by 30 April 2006 (Article 40 EU Directive 2004/38EC). As can be seen from the date of the French legislation the EU’s deadline of 30 April 2006 was not met. b) The Directive further required in Article 36 that ‘Member States shall lay down provisions on the sanctions applicable to breaches of national rules adopted for the implementation of this Directive and shall take the measures required for their application. The sanctions laid down shall be effective and proportionate. Member States shall notify the Commission of these provisions not later than 30 April 2006 and as promptly as possible in the case of any subsequent changes.’ c) Member states were also required to ‘disseminate information concerning the rights and obligations of Union citizens and their family members on the subjects covered by this Directive, particularly by means of awareness-raising campaigns conducted through national and local media and other means of communication’ (Article 34 EU Directive 2004/38EC). d) Despite all of these provisions, it was not until 19th (amended on 24th) September 2007 that the French government published its official statement (containing dates on which changes would take effect) to clarify its position. e) Even now, and despite some information being available on Service-public.fr (http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12017.xhtml?&n= Etrangers% 20en%20France&l=N8&n=Citoyens% 20communautaires %20en%20France&l=N112), it is clear from talking to people, reading letters and reading posts on the internet that those persons affected do not clearly know: · what the administrative formalities are for Union Citizens already resident (Article 8);· how the five year rule will be applied to residents who wish to join the CMU (Article 16);· what the administrative formalities are for obtaining a document certifying permanent residence for Union Citizens already resident (Article 19)· what the sanctions and procedures (including appeal procedures) are (Article 36). f) French law had previously required all to join the state system and had prohibited private insurance (Loi 99-641 CMU of 27th July 1999 and Loi DDOS of 4th February 1995). The provision of private insurance within France by the commercial insurance industry was not even in its infancy. The failure to provide the publicity required by law in respect of this Directive has not only increased alarm amongst existing and potential residents affected but has prevented the insurance industry from having a reasonable lead-in time to cost and prepare alternative products to meet the demands of all affected. g) It could be argued that this has been mitigated by the ‘grace period’ extended to those residents already affiliated to the CMU but that is nothing like the time to which residents and the insurance industry were entitled when the Directive was promulgated in April 2004. In addition the grace period did not apply equally to all residents. It only applied to those who were already affiliated to the CMU and did not apply to potential residents or those existing residents on ‘E’ forms (e.g. E106). h) The duty to publicise was clearly one for Member States. The French Government has failed to meet its responsibilities in regard to bringing into force the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive by 30 April 2006 (Article 40 EU Directive 2004/38EC) and has failed to meet its obligations in regard to Articles 34 and 36 which required adequate and advance publicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Ian, we have also been making this point, from the FHI site. Certainly, it's one of the arguments to include in all lobbying letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiling a frog Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 A small update on the Jim Murphy blog Healthcare in FranceThank you to everyone who has raised the issue of changes to the applicability of the French healthcare system to British citizens living in France, both here and through the British Embassy and Consulates in France. I take this issue very seriously and I'm working with the Department of Health to press the French government on this, through our Embassy in Paris and at other opportunities.Unfortunately I can't respond in detail to all the individual circumstances you have described in your posts but I will keep you updated on further developments here.posted on 09 November 2007 09:55 by Jim Murphy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I see the Connexion have posted another update (8th November), quoting Stéphanie Gaillard re the entitlement of non-EU citizens to health cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerfeet Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 [quote user="Deimos"]I just had another look at 2004/38/EC and there is a publicity section; Article 34:Member States shall disseminate information concerning the rights and obligations of Union citizens and their family members on the subjects covered by this Directive, particularly by means of awareness-raising campaigns conducted through national and local media and other means of communication.No way have they done this. With the rules becoming effective 10 days after they were announced on http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm there was no time. also, given that they have full contact information for everybody affected by these changes they have the easy option to write to everybody - which they have not done.Ian[/quote]well spotted Deimos , I have been thinking this for a long time , how can they bring in changes and not let people know in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 The piece to which Richard refershttp://www.connexionfrance.com/expatriate-news-article.php?art=56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommier Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Part of the 'Connection' article saysMs Gaillard said: “Non-Europeans must have a titre de séjour to stay in France long-term, and people who have a titre de séjour can benefit from the CMU. European Union citizens do not need one.So is Ms Gaillard saying that if we've got a titre de séjour we CAN stay on CMU? We've got them as they were necessary when we moved to France 5 years ago. Is this confirming the '5 year rule'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Ms Gaillard says:Asked whether people from outside the EU, such as Americans, were being banned from the CMU as well as EU citizens like Britons – as the legislation being relied on by the French government relates to EU citizens – Ms Gaillard said: “Non-Europeans must have a titre de séjour to stay in France long-term, and people who have a titre de séjour can benefit from the CMU. European Union citizens do not need one.” She confirmed that those from outside the EU with valid cartes de séjour, were therefore not affected by the regulations being brought in. However, the official assurance maladie website (ameli.fr) lists the following situations as disqualifying for entry to CMU:rattaché à un régime spécifique (étudiants, ministres des cultes, artistes auteurs, détenus...) ; membre du personnel diplomatique et consulaire en poste en France, fonctionnaire d'un État étranger et personne assimilée, ainsi que les membres de votre famille qui vous accompagnent ; venu en France pour suivre un traitement médical ou une cure ; agent retraité d'une organisation internationale non titulaire d'une pension française, ainsi que les membres de votre famille ; ressortissant de nationalité étrangère titulaire d'une carte de séjour « retraité » ; français titulaire d'une pension de source française et résidant à l'étranger en dehors de l'E.E.E. ; français et ressortissant de l'E.E.E., titulaire d'une pension de retraite de source française et résidant à l'étranger dans l'E.E.E. ; français et ressortissant de l'E.E.E. pluri-pensionné, bénéficiant d'une pension de source française et d'une pension d'un pays de l'E.E.E. qui n'est pas votre pays de résidence ; français expatrié adhérant à la Caisse des Français de l'étranger (C.F.E.).Seems that despite what Ms Gaillard claims, all inactive foreign nationals are excluded, regardless of where they are coming from......More confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 [quote user="Sunday Driver"]Seems that despite what Ms Gaillard claims, all inactive foreign nationals are excluded, regardless of where they are coming from......[/quote]I know of a non-EU foreign national who has has their CMU renewed without any "until March" constraints and without any problems. One case hardly establishes how CPAM is intepreting the rules but maybe an indication ?Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 [quote user="Sunday Driver"] Ms Gaillard says:Asked whether people from outside the EU, such as Americans, were being banned from the CMU as well as EU citizens like Britons – as the legislation being relied on by the French government relates to EU citizens – Ms Gaillard said: “Non-Europeans must have a titre de séjour to stay in France long-term, and people who have a titre de séjour can benefit from the CMU. European Union citizens do not need one.” She confirmed that those from outside the EU with valid cartes de séjour, were therefore not affected by the regulations being brought in. However, the official assurance maladie website (ameli.fr) lists the following situations as disqualifying for entry to CMU:ressortissant de nationalité étrangère titulaire d'une carte de séjour « retraité » ; Seems that despite what Ms Gaillard claims, all inactive foreign nationals are excluded, regardless of where they are coming from......More confusion. [/quote]Hopefully no confusion here Sunday driver, (as I've pointed out before somewhere in the mass of postings) the carte de sejour retraite is very specific and not relevant (applies to a non EU foreigner who 'êtes domicilié à l'étranger ; vous bénéficiez d'une pension d'une caisse de retraite française ; vous avez été titulaire en France d'une carte de résident arrivée à expiration) see http://www.prefecture-police-paris.interieur.gouv.fr/demarches/etrangers/paris/sejour/retraite.htmMy husbands expired carte says pensionnne and the new five year EU one is supposed to read "CE - séjour permanent - toutes activités professionnelles", valable vingt ans. Thats changed because they can no longer attempt to prevent an EU citizen from taking up employment here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 [quote user="Helen"] My husbands expired carte says pensionnne and the new five year EU one is supposed to read "CE - séjour permanent - toutes activités professionnelles", valable vingt ans. Thats changed because they can no longer attempt to prevent an EU citizen from taking up employment here. [/quote]Just had all my paperwork, applying for the CE - sejour permanent, returned to me. It was accompanied by a document outlining the fact that it was no longer necessary for an EU citizen to have a card, which also contained a portion of highlighted text within a short paragraph " Un décret en Conseil d'Etat permettra aux personnes concernées qui le souhaiteraient, d'obtenir un titre de séjour, malgré cette dispense, sous certaines conditions.(the next sentence is the one highlighted by the Préfecture) En l'absence de la parution de ce décret, âucun titre peut être délivré.I take it this means that I'm wasting my time applying.Interestingly (?) I'd included a copy of the conditions leading to my 'entitlement' to the CE (taken from the government website) along with my documents. The line "valable vingt ans" in the original text had been crossed out and changed to "10 ans (sauf les retraité)" so obviously, whoever had 'rejected' my application had actually taken the time to read the 'legislation' and 'correct' it before turning me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makfai Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 [quote user="Helen"]Just had all my paperwork, applying for the CE - sejour permanent, returned to me.............I take it this means that I'm wasting my time applying................[/quote]1. French Law France has transposed Article 16 of EU Directive 2004/38EC into its own law and it can be found in Chapter II of that law. A copy is shown below. LOI no 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 relative à l’immigration et à l’intégration (1)NOR : INTX0600037L« CHAPITRE II« Droit au séjour permanent« Art. L. 122-1. − Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l’ordre public, le ressortissant visé à l’article L. 121-1 qui a résidé de manière légale et ininterrompue en France pendant les cinq années precedents acquiert un droit au séjour permanent sur l’ensemble du territoire français.« Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l’ordre public, le membre de sa famille mentionné à l’article L. 121-3 acquiert également un droit au séjour permanent sur l’ensemble du territoire français à condition qu’il ait résidé en France de manière légale et ininterrompue avec le ressortissant visé à l’article L. 121-1 pendant les cinq années précédentes. 2. French Administration Not only has the law been published in France but administrative arrangements are in place for people to obtain the Carte de sejour permanent. These can be found on the Service-public.fr website athttp://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12017.xhtml?&n=Europe et Citoyens européens en France / Citoyens européens: résider en Franceand are repeated below for ease of reference Droit au séjour permanent Règle Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, le citoyen européen ou assimilé qui a résidé de façon légale et ininterrompue en France pendant les cinq années précédentes acquiert un droit au séjour permanent sur l'ensemble du territoire français. A l'issue de cette période, il n'a plus besoin de justifier les conditions de son séjour (ressources par exemple). Continuité du séjour La continuité du séjour sur les cinq ans peut être prouvée par tout moyen. Ne sont pas prises en compte les absences temporaires ne dépassant pas six mois par an, les absences pour l'accomplissement des obligations militaires ou une absence de douze mois consécutifs maximum pour une raison importante telle qu'une maladie grave, des études ou un détachement professionnel à l'étranger par exemple. La continuité du séjour est interrompue par l'exécution de toute mesure d'éloignement. Perte du droit au séjour permanent Une fois acquis, le droit au séjour permanent ne se perd que par une absence de France de plus de deux années consécutives. Carte de séjour permanent Les citoyens qui ont acquis un droit au séjour permanent en France peuvent demander la délivrance d'une carte de séjour "CE - séjour permanent - toutes activités professionnelles", valable vingt ans. Cette carte, dont la possession n'est pas obligatoire, est renouvelable de plein droit. It is all on the French Govt's ownwebsites so I suggest you print off copies with the weblinks and sendit all back to them and possibly the local mayor if he is the type wholikes to chase bureaucrats! A friend of mine was recently in exactlythe same position as you and I sent him this info. When he wasreturning with the printouts to prove them wrong he bumped into thelocal mayor . The mayor enjoyed himself talking to the senior civilservant in charge. He pretended at first that he didn't know the answerthen pointed out the law and admin arrangements which had been openlypublished! He gave them a week to get their position sorted out. (Week is not up yet)Link shortened by a Mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Thanks for your reply. The information contained within the 4 sections headed 'Droit au séjour permanent' that you've included in your reply is precisely what I enclosed with my application. It was the wording in the last section, 'valable vingt ans' that had been changed by hand in the returned documents, so it had obviously been READ. Perhaps it's just 'policy' to say 'non'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makfai Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 [quote user="Richard"]Thanks for your reply. The information contained within the 4 sections headed 'Droit au séjour permanent' that you've included in your reply is precisely what I enclosed with my application. It was the wording in the last section, 'valable vingt ans' that had been changed by hand in the returned documents, so it had obviously been READ. Perhaps it's just 'policy' to say 'non'.[/quote] I think they just don't know. Any policy to say NO would be shot down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 "Les citoyens qui ont acquis un droit au séjour permanent en France peuvent demander la délivrance d'une carte de séjour "CE - séjour permanent - toutes activités professionnelles", valable vingt ans. "....may request a carte de séjour. Whether a prefecture is prepared carry the administrative cost of issuing a document that is not actually a legal requirement is a matter for them. Until this new heathcare situation arose, the need to prove five years residency for CMU did not exist, therefore being in possession of a carte de sejour was not critical. However, given the new position, I suspect that the prefectures will be instructed to review their refusal policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 SD I think the admin costs associated with a carte de s will be passed on to the applicant. When we first applied for a carte in 1990 we had to have a medical which included a chest xray and a blood test,all paid for by us. We also paid other bits and pieces, including obtaining a stamp from the Tabac in the same way we used to have to get the car tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makfai Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 [quote user="Sunday Driver"]....may request a carte de séjour. Whether a prefecture is prepared carry the administrative cost of issuing a document that is not actually a legal requirement is a matter for them. [/quote] No it isn't a matter for them I am pleased to sayEU Directive 2004/38/ECSection IIAdministrative formalitiesArticle 19Document certifying permanent residence for Union citizens1. Upon application Member States shall issue Union citizens entitled to permanent residence, after having verified duration of residence, with a document certifying permanent residence.2. The document certifying permanent residence shall be issued as soon as possible.As regards feesArticle 25 of EU Dircetive 2004/38EC says:General provisions concerning residence documents1. Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof.2. All documents mentioned in paragraph 1 shall be issued free of charge or for a charge not exceeding that imposed on nationals for the issuing of similar documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 . Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof you don't actually have to have a card if you can prove residence by other means.The French code says that as well: La reconnaissance du droit de séjour n'est pas subordonnée à la détention de ce titre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Whatever the rules and regulations (EU/UN wise) say, seems to me that the French authorities are cherry picking what suits them and just giving the rest "the finger". I do find it surprising that a government can act like that, and even more surprising how things are just totally uncoordinated. Thus, whilst Article numbers, etc. lend weight I would expect that when faced with the officious official who actually had to do the work you will continue to get the "non" until his boss is told by his boss, is told by his boss ... is told by lord and master that things must change. Lord and master does not like British early retired so is not going to act quickly.Maybe if the British government started representing their citizens - but that does not seem to be very likely either. However, seems what little they are doing is very "could you possibly ..." and "if it would not be too much trouble ..." rather than "this is EU law, comply with it now" attitude. Treading softly in the extreme.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 That's right. You obtain the right to permanent residence by being permanently resident for the qualifying period, not by the issue of the carte. That's just an administrative device that certifies that you have evidenced your right by the appropriate documentation in order to save you having to produce the proof again if requested.The application/renewal form for CMU de base only asks EU citizens to produce their identity card or passport. The length of stay can be proved by other means, eg producing tax returns. So, whilst a carte de sejour would be helpful, it is not mandatory.Like I said, it's likely that instruction will come down from above..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 IanYou can't complain about officials following the instructions they are given. Providing your staff with clear guidelines to follow is one of the basic principles of management.And you can't expect them to throw those guidelines out of the window whenever someone arrives and says "Ah, but...EU directive number 12345 states that......". Most of them probably won't be aware of what an EU directive is (and why should they?).Be patient.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makfai Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 [quote user="Sunday Driver"]Like I said, it's likely that instruction will come down from above..... [/quote]I believe the spokesperson Stephnanie GAILLARD said exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 [quote user="Sunday Driver"]IanYou can't complain about officials following the instructions they are given. Providing your staff with clear guidelines to follow is one of the basic principles of management.And you can't expect them to throw those guidelines out of the window whenever someone arrives and says "Ah, but...EU directive number 12345 states that......". Most of them probably won't be aware of what an EU directive is (and why should they?).Be patient....[/quote]I agree. What frustrates me (though does not yet affect me directly) is that these rules are already being applied and are affecting people - even though the French do not seem to have sorted out what the rules actually are. There are already poeple whose E106's have expired and have supposedly (if complying with French law anyway) taken out Private Health Insurance. What if the French then change their laws to allow people with permenant residence to joing CPAM - who will refund those individuals insurance premiums (those that can then join the CMU) ? I am really quite disgusted with the way the French are failing to sort this situation out.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caussenarde Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Hard Fact: We are resident in France since August 2002 and have Cartes de Séjour which date from 7 January 2003. We have our letter today from CPAM Lot to say we are in CMU until 31st March 2008 when we have to return our CVs. They say that we "do not fulfil the condition of the Article L.121-1 du Code de l'entrée et de séjour des étrangers et du droit d'asile qui stipule, entre autres conditions : que tout ressortissant de l'Union Européenne, de L'Espace Economique Européen, ou de la Conféderation suisse, a le droit de séjourner en France pendant plus de trois mois sous réserve qu'il dispose d'une assurance maladie". They don't refer to the five year residency at all. And there's no reference to what happens to us after 31st March or what we must do. We will challenge this but our view is that the rumoured five year get-out is wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 This does not sound at all good but good luck with your appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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