BREAKING NEWS ON EXPAT HEALTH COVER

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

Here here Ron.

I started work at 15 and have paid NI all my working life, including Class3 for some 9 years or so whilst working abroad, yet the mere fact that I choose to live in France disqualifies me from reciprocal health cover after 2 years.

If I had remained in UK but given up work completely and just lived on my savings, thus never paying another penny in NI, then I, or rather we, would have still have been fully covered !

Bonkers, you bet - but it just goes to show that governments really don't give a to** about anybody, only what they can extract from them, and if they die prematurely so much the better, it saves them money [:@]

[/quote]

Your NI goes toward your pension, not your healthcare.  That's paid for from general taxation - it's a mutual contribution system where everyone pays in to benefit everyone else who needs treatment at the time.  If you are resident in the UK you qualify for treatment - which could well have been paid for by someone else.  If you live in another country, then you don't.

Nothing's changed......

 

[caramac]

[quote user="ErnieY"][quote user="ams"]

Not quite sure what you are saying, or even why you bother to respond.  I guess no vacancies on cruise ships for safety officers.

 

ams

[/quote]

Is it just me or does anybody else not understand this [8-)]

[/quote]

[:D]Thanks Ernie, don't have time to look in much so I thought I'd missed something - there again, maybe I have...[Www]

[makfai]

I am hoping that the Fr Gov will interpret registration of an E106 in a positive way but the clock is ticking on this  or those who MAY be affected and the Fr Gov may not deliver.

I would advise any E106 holders who are looking at losing their entitlement and who have pre-existing conditions to apply to as many insurance companies as they can as soon as they can to obtain 'rejection slips'.  It is likely that they will need these to produce evidence for any appeal of their inability to obtain cover.  If it later transpires that the Fr Gov has admitted E106 holders registered before 1 October 2007 then, OK, you will have wasted a bit of time BUT if the Fr Gov takes the opposite view you will have acted prudently.

I don't know what the Fr Gov will do in terms of the Appeals Process but it would be optimistic of me to expect it to be quick! I have, therefore, included below a copy of Article 41 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union which people may wish to quote if circumstances dictate.  Ideally, this Article would be interpreted by the Fr Gov to mean that, while a person was waiting for an appeal to be heard, the person would be allowed access to French Healthcare BUT that will need to be pursued and clarified with the French Authorities by an interested party (e.g person affected; lobby group; or MEP etc). 

I appreciate that we have to wait until the details are announced but I would like to encourage people no to give up on thinking of alternative courses of action

 

CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS

OF THE EUROPEAN UNION

(2000/C 364/01)

 

Article 41

Right to good administration

1. Every person has the right to have his or her affairs handled impartially, fairly and within a reasonable time by the institutions and bodies of the Union.

2. This right includes:

. the right of every person to be heard, before any individual measure which would affect him or her adversely is taken;

. the right of every person to have access to his or her file, while respecting the legitimate interests of confidentiality and of professional and business secrecy;

. the obligation of the administration to give reasons for its decisions.

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Your NI goes toward your pension, not your healthcare.  That's paid for from general taxation - it's a mutual contribution system where everyone pays in to benefit everyone else who needs treatment at the time.  If you are resident in the UK you qualify for treatment - which could well have been paid for by someone else.  If you live in another country, then you don't.

Nothing's changed......

 

[/quote]Let me edit that to say NI & TAX then.

And in any case, if that is so, then why is ones E form eligibility, which gives you reciprocal health care, based purely on NI contributions and not tax ?

 

[seb47]

Makfai,

Many thanks for that (maybe) glimmer of hope for us E 106 ers.

As a teacher / behaviour manager before retirement, I had instilled in my approach: 'be positive', so am still waiting for the Gov. announcement rather than suppositions from other sources.

Maybe the delay is good news? (Nevertheless have made arrangements for the PHI premiums). I'm going to pursue the 'appeals procedure' for my pre existing hyperthyroidism but am planning to demand 'emergency treatment' for my medication under NHS during my Christmas visit.

Good luck to all, Sue.

[Jazzer]

The Benefit of Hindsight- I have worked a total of 44 years.Made redundant in 1997 and then re employed some 6 months later Perhaps better if I had not worked so close to arriving in France(Jan 2006) as I would now be in the system To make matters worse I was initially given an E106 for 1 year which I contested and won. If I had not bothered I would  have beeen  in the system.And to cap it all I come from Wales where prescriptions are now free!

[woolybanana]

Wales? Explains a lot.

[Bob T]

[quote user="ErnieY"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Your NI goes toward your pension, not your healthcare.  That's paid for from general taxation - it's a mutual contribution system where everyone pays in to benefit everyone else who needs treatment at the time.  If you are resident in the UK you qualify for treatment - which could well have been paid for by someone else.  If you live in another country, then you don't.

Nothing's changed......

 

[/quote]Let me edit that to say NI & TAX then.

And in any case, if that is so, then why is ones E form eligibility, which gives you reciprocal health care, based purely on NI contributions and not tax ?

 

[/quote]

Thats a good one, I pay UK tax on my RAF pension (I have no choice in that) so can I still use the NHS?  - NO

[AnOther]

Actually SD it's not quite that black and white.

Extract from the relevant DIRECT.GOV web site page:

Benefits that depend on NIC contributions

Your entitlement to the following benefits and/or the amount you can get will depend on your (or in some cases your spouse or civil partner's) NIC contributions:

• Contribution based Jobseeker's Allowance (Class 1 NICs only)

• Incapacity Benefit (if you can't work for long periods due to illness or injury)

• State Pension

• additional State Pension (Class 1 NICs only)

• Widowed Parents' Allowance

• Bereavement Allowance

• Bereavement Payment

 

PS: Bob, is your avatar you at work [:D][:D][:D]

[Sunday Driver]

Ernie

I'm not clear why you've posted that - the benefits you have listed are nothing to do with the matter under discussion.

It is black and white in terms of people who think that their lifetime NI contributions build up some sort of 'pot'which gives them an entitlement to ongoing healthcare once they've taken early retirement and left the country.... 

 

[AnOther]

Because you said;

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]Your NI goes toward your pension, not your healthcare.[/quote]which could be taken to mean that that is all it does and I merely posted the link to show exactly where NI does go, but you are right of course in what you say that it does not entitle one to ongoing health care in early retirement in another country, as I think we are all too aware.

. 

[Helen]

Again sorry if already posted but had to fly to UK in an emergency yesterday so perhaps I've missed it (although I used the internet at the airport just to check, very sad[:(])

Another connexion article http://www.connexionfrance.com/expatriate-news-article.php?art=60  quoting 2 sources (Mme Gaillard and Ophélie Rota, spokeswoman for the French Health Ministry,   much the same news as IFP newsletter  with the addition:

'Stéphanie Gaillard told The Connexion that the circulars had been sent to a central body for distribution to the CPAMs on November 23'

 

 

[Jazzer]

There are 3/4 pages in the December edition of the Connexion.Meanwhile I have received a reply to my posting on the Conservatives Abroad blog. This is the main body of the reply::

 

" We have now received the answers to gary Streeter's Parliamentary Questions which can be viewed on the Conservatives Abroad website.

 

They are disapointed by the non commital answers given by the minister. the people who are going to be affected by the French Government decision fully researched how they would access healthcare when they moved abroad to live in France.

 

It has been brought to our attention that Britons living in France already paying in tio the CMU will be allowed to continue. However, the Labour government must do more to make sure that all those currently living in France with a valid E106 will be able to access the Healthcare system without needing Private Health Insurance when it expires. It is unacceptable to think they would allow this to happen. We will continue to pressure the government to put measures in place to ensure British expats do not find themselves in this position.

[Sunday Driver]

"Ms Gaillard said the position had been reached after weeks of talks between the French health ministry and the British Embassy in Paris."

I think it unlikely that the British Embassy will have excluded E106 holders from these negotiations, given that their predicament is the same as those without one.  Combined with with the comments that "new applications by inactive expats would be rejected' suggests that exisiting E106 holders may well be allowed to remain in the heath system.

Just idle speculation, as usual....[;-)]

 

[Ron Avery]

With all due respect to those who have posted links to English language papers, given their past history for rushing in to press without checking facts etc and getting things totally wrong or overblown as they did at the start of all this, I prefer to wait for a letter from CPAM telling me what is happening or a published reply from the French Government to the Hairdressing salon[:D]

[makfai]

[quote user="Jazzer"]

There are 3/4 pages in the December edition of the Connexion.Meanwhile I have received a reply to my posting on the Conservatives Abroad blog. This is the main body of the reply::

 

[/quote]

 

I got the same reply  Below is the pathetic reply to the questions put by Gary Streeter

QUESTIONS      http://www.conservativesabroad.org/blog/?p=222

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, if he will negotiate a reciprocal agreement with the French government to enable retired British citizens living in France to access French healthcare without private medical insuranceTo ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, what estimate he has made of the number of British citizens living in

France who will be affected by the French government’s decision to change healthcare law

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, what advice he has received on the legality under EU law of the French government’s decision to change its rules regarding access to healthcare for British citizens

REPLY                http://www.conservativesabroad.org/blog/?p=223

The position of British citizens living in France who are covered by European Union reciprocal agreements has not changed and they will still receive state provided healthcare in France. This means that retired people in receipt of United Kingdom state pension are still able to access state healthcare in France.

The changes to the French system affect early retirees from other member states including the UK who are not covered by EU regulations and have not lived in France long enough to meet their residency requirements. It is not known how many people are affected.

Health and social security systems differ in each member state. Who and what is covered is a matter for each individual state in this instance France. There are no plans to negotiate an agreement with France that goes beyond existing ones. It is critical that people consider how they will access healthcare when they move abroad.

[Boiling a frog]

So did I

They are hardly likely to admit that the question put was not correctly worded. Streeter refered to retired citizens instead of inactive citizens .

[Sunday Driver]

Rather than blaming the Minister for following proper parliamentary procedure and replying to the question she was asked, doesn't this demonstrate the lack of appreciation of the situation by Her Majesty's Opposition, given that Mr Streeter is chairman of the Conservative International Office...

 

[Deimos]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

"Ms Gaillard said the position had been reached after weeks of talks between the French health ministry and the British Embassy in Paris."

I think it unlikely that the British Embassy will have excluded E106 holders from these negotiations, given that their predicament is the same as those without one.  Combined with with the comments that "new applications by inactive expats would be rejected' suggests that exisiting E106 holders may well be allowed to remain in the heath system.

Just idle speculation, as usual....[;-)]

 

[/quote]

But what you did not quote from the article is the sentence immediately following the one you quoted (that I have highlighted in bold), which goes on to say " Those already affiliated to the French health system through the CMU regime will be allowed to remain in it." - which suggests to me that existing E106 holders will not be allowed to join the CMU (the bit that says "already affiliated through the CMU ...").

Ian

[Chris]

Deimos,  I reckon that one is/was affiliated to CMU first by holding a E106 and then when that runs out, continuing by making contributions.  We came with E106s, affiliated, got a SS number, attestations and CVs. Then at run out nothing changed except that we started paying.  That seems to suggest that one is 'affiliated' from day 1.  It is certainly logical and, not that politicians concern themselves too much, just. As someone said, it is all speculation yet, but it's difficult to stop thinking about it all.

Chris

[Ron Avery]

Chris wrote "I reckon that one is/was affiliated to CMU first by holding a E106"

Sadly for those with E 106s Chris that is not the case, I argued that some pages back, and was corrected quite rightly by SD.  Whilst holding an E form you are not in the CMU, you are not in the CMU until you join it and pay for your healthcare.  If membership of the CMU was whilst having an E106 there would be no need to wait for further clarification would there? The best outcome that can be hoped for from what has been intimated so far , and we don't know what agreement Jim Murphy the Europe Minister secured in his talks on 15 November yet, is that any banning of entry to the CMU is done from a date in the future and not retrospectively so that when people elect to move to France they do so knowing that they must have private healthcare cover and the potential costs.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]you are not in the CMU until you join it and pay for your healthcare[/quote]You could argue I suppose that on an E106 you are paying insomuch as UK are reimbursing your cost's in France are they not ?

I've seen it written somewhere but can't recall if reimbursement is, full, a flat rate or a percentage. Someone doubtless knows.  

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]you are not in the CMU until you join it and pay for your healthcare[/quote]You could argue I suppose that on an E106 you are paying insomuch as UK are reimbursing your cost's in France are they not ?

You could try Ernie but you really are wasting your time. You are not in the CMU whilst you have an E form.  

I've seen it written somewhere but can't recall if reimbursement is, full, a flat rate or a percentage. Someone doubtless knows.

It does not matter,  you are not in the CMU with an E 106 whether you like it or not.  If CMU membership was tied to an E 106 there would be no need for people to keep on campaigning and worrying as everybody with an E 106 would be deemed to be the CMU as of 30/9 but they are not.  

[/quote]

[AnOther]

It was a hypothetical point Ron not a statement of intent as I'm sure you realise [;-)]

I'd still be interested to know about the reimbursement amount though.

[Sunday Driver]

If we accept that the decision on the part of the French government to reverse the present situation was influenced by the strong arguments put forward - it is unfair to withdraw heathcare rights from persons already settled and legally resident in France and correctly affiliated for state healthcare under the prevailing rules at the time - then there should be no distinction between current holders of an E106 and those without.  

If the French now acknowledge that it was unfair to exclude one group of settled residents (CMU), then it'd equally unfair to exclude another group of settled residents (E106) who are in exactly the same position. The principle established by the argument remains the same, regardless of the number on someone's form.

I realise we are in the game of 'interpreting an interpretation' but I'm not convinced that all is lost for the E106 people.