Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion

[ali-cat]

But do you honestly see the French Govenrment, or in fact the French people, being happy allowing un-working Brits to receive healthcare, when long-term unemployed French people can't?

[Chris]

AliCat's response has now thrown me completely.  I understood, confirmed a few weeks ago by my French advisor, the following:

CMU de Base

Pour

bénéficier de la C.M.U. de base, vous devez être en situation

régulière, résider en France de manière stable depuis au moins trois

mois et n'être pas déjà couvert par un autre régime obligatoire de

Sécurité sociale. La C.M.U. de base n'est pas attribuée sous conditions

de ressources, mais une cotisation vous sera demandée si vos revenus

dépassent un certain plafond.

CMU = Universal Health Cover:  So I do not understand why your single unemployed Frenchman cannot get health care cover. He will not have to pay if his earnings are below a certain level.

La C.M.U. complémentaire

La

C.M.U. complémentaire possède tous les avantages d'une protection

complémentaire ; avec, en plus, la gratuité et la dispense d'avance de

frais chez tous les professionnels de santé pour vos soins

remboursables. Pour en bénéficier, vous devez habiter en France depuis

plus de trois mois, être en situation régulière, et le revenu mensuel

de votre foyer ne doit pas dépasser pas un certain montant.

Again no matter how poor, even the 'top up', paid for normally by a complementary 'Mutuelle' , is available to your poor single Frenchman.

2."- le ressortissant ayant

acquis un droit au séjour permanent en France ne peut plus le perdre

s'il cesse de remplir les conditions prévues au chapitre précédent,

notamment s'agissant des conditions de ressources et de l'obligation de

disposer d'une assurance maladie..."

 

In summary, surely this says that after 5 years residence,  even if you no longer fulfill the sufficient resources and health insurance criteria, you  can't lose his right to live here.  It does not say that you can join the CMU, and so it's up to you whether you buy private health insurance.

The 5 year thing is comforting , but does not (yet) assure continued eligibility to contribute to the CMU, does it?

Being a French national could be more useful, but needs looking at. 

[BJSLIV]

I think the catch is that that though five years residence will entitle you to the same conditions as any other French resident, who knows what hoops may be introduced "pour encourager les autres"

[Chassaing]

[quote user="ali-cat"]

But do you honestly see the French Govenrment, or in fact the French people, being happy allowing un-working Brits to receive healthcare, when long-term unemployed French people can't?

[/quote]

After blaming the inflated housing markets on the Brit Retirees and second home buyers.  Having seen the size of the Health System deficits, I wonder how Mr Sarkozy will explain away the deficits next year after 'ethnically cleansing' the system this year.  His policies for growth will obviously fail against the tide of global recession, unemployment will grow (inspite of his 'work makes you free' attitude) and the focus will be back on him.  Obviously, an influx of new 'French Nationals'  won't help his position so I agree with you.  We are without health cover now, but his systems will be a lot sicker when we get our E121. I wonder how he will feel when the World Health Orgainisation downgrades the French Health Service.

[Tony F Dordogne]

'ethnically cleansing', 'work makes you free' (the slogan above the gates of many concentration camps) come on.

[Helen]

[quote user="ali-cat"]

But do you honestly see the French Govenrment, or in fact the French people, being happy allowing un-working Brits to receive healthcare, when long-term unemployed French people can't?

[/quote]

According to Amelie they do not have access to the CMU de base because they already have an alternative system in place but they might be able to get the CMU complementaire if their income is low enough. It also stresses that people who have a higher income but no alternative health care provision are entitled to CMU de base but not CMU complementaire

'Ainsi, si vous n'êtes couvert par aucun autre régime d'Assurance Maladie, vous pouvez bénéficier de la C.M.U. de base même si vous disposez de revenus importants (une cotisation vous sera alors demandée), mais pas de la C.M.U. complémentaire accordée sur critères de ressources.

À l'inverse, si vous êtes au chômage, avec une allocation de 500 euros environ, la C.M.U. complémentaire peut vous être accordée mais pas la C.M.U. de base, car vous êtes déjà couvert par le régime des travailleurs salariés. Il est donc inutile dans ce cas de faire une demande de C.M.U. de base.'

I do think many people don't understand the difference between the two.

[Ron Avery]

Lrbois wrote
"After blaming the inflated housing markets on the Brit Retirees and second home buyers."   When did he do that then?

 "We are without health cover now, but his systems will be a lot sicker when we get our E121" 

 Don't think so, the costs of treatment for E 121 holders is not met by France, the UK picks up the tab, that is why those on E forms are being allowed to stay in the system.

"I wonder how he will feel when the World Health Orgainisation downgrades the French Health Service" 

 A bit of prespective is needed here!!!  Why should the WHO downgrade the system just because a few thousand Brits are made to take peivate insurance?.

[Ron Avery]

cannot delete dupicate, I know it was good but not worth reading twice[:D],

[cooperlola]

To say that the E121 costs are met by the UK, is not strictly true.  It is a per capita payment.  Some people's treatment will cost the French state more than they get paid, others less. Same goes for the E106.

What is interesting is that the payment (I've seen it somewhere, and I think it's around the 3,000 euro mark) is significantly lower than the cost of private sector healthcare for an individual over 50 - certainly when you take into account what it covers - and that it has no "exisiting conditions" caveat, of course.  One of the things which really riles me about all this, is that many (well, me, I guess - can't speak for anybody else) would far rather pay more and stay in the national system here, than give the money to an industry whose motive is profit, not our welfare.

[makfai]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

 One of the things which really riles me about all this, is that many (well, me, I guess - can't speak for anybody else) would far rather pay more and stay in the national system here, than give the money to an industry whose motive is profit, not our welfare.

[/quote]

I'm with you on this.  I would rather there was a system which allowed the money to go to the state than into the coffers of insurance companies.  Trouble is that the EU Directive chose the private health insurance option and the EU countries are just falling in line with those provisions.

[Chassaing]

[quote user="makfai"][quote user="cooperlola"]

 One of the things which really riles me about all this, is that many (well, me, I guess - can't speak for anybody else) would far rather pay more and stay in the national system here, than give the money to an industry whose motive is profit, not our welfare.

[/quote]

I'm with you on this.  I would rather there was a system which allowed the money to go to the state than into the coffers of insurance companies.  Trouble is that the EU Directive chose the private health insurance option and the EU countries are just falling in line with those provisions.

[/quote]

Us too!

Our health insurance man has working hard to find us a choice of

policies to cover us, we are healthy!  They must be rubbing their hands with glee. I only hope we can make it to the  Monday

afternoon meeting before being given a one way ticket back to UK.

Lucky I went to Specsavers!

[MrCanary]

Cooperlola,

I agree - I would be very happy to pay on a monthly basis to the French health system what working people pay. With my existing conditions (not uncommon in the over 50's) I expect to get ripped off big time by the insurance parasites.

My dear wife, who, four years ago, made the purchase of our French house the most positive thing she has ever agreed to (apart from marrying me) is now saying, "Sell it". And this is not because of just the health thing - we expect to have to pay at our pre-retirement ages - we both feel that this could be the start of measures against we Brits. 

[cooperlola]

I can understand that paying "what the French pay" could still be construed as not enough.  The point about universal state healthcare is that one pays into it in the "healthy" (we hope) years, to finance the "unhealthy" ones.  We've paid during the former to the UK and the French state would then be financing the latter - which I can see is a problem - and great fun for a "reforming" president to chuck around in sound-bite form.  Which is why, it seems to me, with so much movement within the EU now, this problem has to be addressed at European level - it is just pushing the problem around to leave it up to individual member countries to interpret as they wish.  Each country's problems may be different but they are certainly inter-linked.

[MrCanary]

Spot on Cooperlola - spot on!

[Chassaing]

[quote user="cooperlola"]I can understand that paying "what the French pay" could still be construed as not enough.  The point about universal state healthcare is that one pays into it in the "healthy" (we hope) years, to finance the "unhealthy" ones.  We've paid during the former to the UK and the French state would then be financing the latter - which I can see is a problem - and great fun for a "reforming" president to chuck around in sound-bite form.  Which is why, it seems to me, with so much movement within the EU now, this problem has to be addressed at European level - it is just pushing the problem around to leave it up to individual member countries to interpret as they wish.  Each country's problems may be different but they are certainly inter-linked.[/quote]

Nice one!  And as the budget deficits are causing some grief.........  someone has to pay more and someone has to loose the care.  Simple!  The clock it ticking until 31 March 2008 for the main effect.

[cooperlola]

What is the logical conclusion of all this?  Some will pay up for private healthcare and keep everything crossed that they don't develop any long term conditions which will preclude them from extending cover beyond the first year.  Some will go back to the UK, to an undoubtedly more expensive property, so they will incur debt and hardship, and possibly drain the UK's resources in other ways - apart from the costs of caring for their health.  There may also be a third group who begin to hunt around for another part of Europe to move to where healthcare provision is better.  Thus this will just move around Europe until somebody up there figures out that it isn't just about 200,000 ex-pats and immigrants in France - it is about the whole of Europe and somebody needs to wake up to this.  We have to make a noise because this isn't going to go away in March - it will rumble on until somebody sorts it.

[Chassaing]

One thing to remember....  The budget deficits were not 'caused' by us, so by not letting us contribute to the French Health System, the problem won't just go away.   We have paid in all our lives and are still willing so to do.  'Freedom of movement' comes with a price....................

[sunshine 2]

Yes - Cooperola writes so well about not wishing to line the pockets of the insurance companies but preferring to give the French govt the relevant amount to pay towards their health service.  What would work well, though it's never going to happen, is for pre-retirement age Brits to obtain an E121 early by paying the British Health service the sum that they would then pay the French health service for each person with an E121.  I believe the UK pays the France 3,000 euros per person on an E121.  At least that way all those with pre-exisitng conditions would get cover, no questions asked.

[Chassaing]

[quote user="sunshine"]Yes - Cooperola writes so well about not wishing to line the pockets of the insurance companies but preferring to give the French govt the relevant amount to pay towards their health service.  What would work well, though it's never going to happen, is for pre-retirement age Brits to obtain an E121 early by paying the British Health service the sum that they would then pay the French health service for each person with an E121.  I believe the UK pays the France 3,000 euros per person on an E121.  At least that way all those with pre-exisitng conditions would get cover, no questions asked.[/quote]

Great idea, possibly far too sensible. :)

[cooperlola]

I have wondered about "signing on" here, even though I neither want nor need a job.  If all the ex-pats below 65 did this, it would be quite a shock for the French unemployment figures, as the chances of our actually finding work are pretty miniscule.

[JJ]

I am 50 and just about recieve my police pension, Mrs JJ is 48 and a qualified nurse, we have a small gite business, and two daughters aged 9 and 11, and we all love it here. We have been here for 4.5 years, and things were looking pretty good for the future.

Until all this healthcare thing blew up, we cannot afford the private healthcare route as I have existing conditions, so Mrs JJ who is fluent has decided to go back to work in france as a Nurse, but she does not want full time. We cannot afford to return to the UK either, and do not wish to.

Does anyone know what the mininum hours she would need to do to gain access to the health care system.

I appreciate that this might not be the right thread in the forum, but I thougt someone on this thread might know as there are some very well informed people contributing at the moment.

 

[Chassaing]

[quote user="cooperlola"]I have wondered about "signing on" here, even though I neither want nor need a job.  If all the ex-pats below 65 did this, it would be quite a shock for the French unemployment figures, as the chances of our actually finding work are pretty miniscule.[/quote]

I can just picture queues of UK pre-pensioners outside the job centres.  Chanting, "Give us a job!"  The film 'The full monty' comes to mind!

Saw this the other day, it made me think......

http://carnival-of-anarchy.blogspot.com/2007/09/work-should-make-you-free.html

[cooperlola]

JJ, I think there are a couple of routes open to you. I believe the requirement for work is about 60 hours a month, and that if "signed on" if this work is unavailable then after a certain time, healthcare becomes a "right" but don't quote me.  The precise figures are around here somewhere and I will check them out.

The other possible option, is to register your gite as a business and pay full cotisations.  Again, there are others on here who do this who will give you more info.  This has been discussed a lot and the search function may help you - although it's not that easy as so much has been said on this subject recently - some of it relevant - much of it not!

EDIT : Yes, 60 ours per month, see THIS LINK

[Clair]

[quote user="JJ"]I am 50 and just about receive my police pension, Mrs JJ is 48 and a qualified nurse, we have a small gite business, and two daughters aged 9 and 11, and we all love it here. We have been here for 4.5 years, and things were looking pretty good for the future.

Until all this healthcare thing blew up, we cannot afford the private healthcare route as I have existing conditions, so Mrs JJ who is fluent has decided to go back to work in France as a Nurse, but she does not want full time. We cannot afford to return to the UK either, and do not wish to.

Does anyone know what the minimum hours she would need to do to gain access to the health care system.

I appreciate that this might not be the right thread in the forum, but I thought someone on this thread might know as there are some very well informed people contributing at the moment.

[/quote]

JJ, this page has a lot of info about the rights of access to health cover for employed people: http://www.ameli.fr/assures/droits-et-demarches/

the basic rights are:

[quote]Le remboursement de vos soins

Pour avoir droit au remboursement de vos soins pendant un an, en cas de maladie ou de maternité, vous devez justifier :

• avoir
  travaillé au moins soixante heures, ou avoir cotisé sur un salaire au
  moins égal à soixante fois le montant du SMIC horaire, pendant un mois
  civil ou trente jours ;
• ou avoir travaillé au
  moins 120 heures, ou avoir cotisé sur un salaire au moins égal
  à 120 fois le montant du SMIC horaire, pendant trois mois civils ou un
  trimestre ;
• ou avoir travaillé au moins 1 200
  heures, ou avoir cotisé sur un salaire au moins égal à 2 030 fois le
  montant du SMIC horaire, pendant douze mois.[/quote]

If Mrs JJ is registers as a health professional conventionnée, she will come under a different régime detailed here:

(Praticien ou auxiliaire medical)

Worth noting

• in case of a FIRST JOB, there is an automatic access to all health rights for the first three months of employment (premier emploi)

• where the job is temporary (temping for instance, or fruits picking (travail saisonnier), you'd need a minimum of 800h worked over the previous 12 months or minimum contributions based on a salary equal to 2030 times the hourly SMIC (don't ask...)(Travail saisonnier ou intérimaire)

[MrCanary]

Just found this........

http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/healthinsurance/hot-topics/expatriate-health-insurance

I haven't had a chance to study it yet...