Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion

[Ron Avery]

"Similarly, do not assume that everybody is trying to fleece the system. I am self-employed and even if I followed my scenario, I would continue to pay N.I. contributions in the UK"

So sorry Gus, I thought that your question was about how to live in France and not take out a French healthcare insurance by bending the rules about residence.........   I have just read it again and it was.

 You asked your question to see if your theory meant that  could live in France and still get UK health care for your condition and you got your answer ..  No.

[Helen]

I'm becoming obsessive but this does seeem to be another explanation confirming the rights of someone entitled to permanent residence

'Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after

a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion

decision has not been enforced against them. This right of permanent residence is no

longer subject to any conditions........

Union citizens qualifying for the right of residence or the right of permanent residence

and the members of their family also benefit from equal treatment with host-country

nationals in the areas covered by the Treaty. However, until the right of permanent

residence has been acquired, the host Member State is not obliged to grant entitlement

to social security to persons other than employed or self-employed workers and the

members of their family.'         (presumably after five years they are obliged,)    from the European citizen action service website

 

 

I  also found that ECAS  runs 'the citizens signpost service' for the EU. This  has a team of legal experts who will answer questions on various issues including medical care. They claim that you will get an answer within a week.by phone http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/front_end/about/index_en.htm

The questions have to be individual, I have emailed asking about  my rights to health care after five years residence.

[Ron Avery]

Helen

As Will said earlier, residency may not entitle you to healthcare through the CMU if you are not working, I am resident as far as I am concerned and have a T de S which says that I am a resident, but will it guarantee continued  membership of the CMU, I only have 4 years residece at the moment?  We still wait a definitve answer, the BBC News article says that existing members of the CMU are OK, but how out of date is that?

[MrCanary]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

"Similarly, do not assume that everybody is trying to fleece the system. I am self-employed and even if I followed my scenario, I would continue to pay N.I. contributions in the UK"

So sorry Gus, I thought that your question was about how to live in France and not take out a French healthcare insurance by bending the rules about residence.........   I have just read it again and it was. (WRONG - I understand that this is not available for pre-existing conditions and that is what causes my dilemma.)

 You asked your question to see if your theory meant that  could live in France and still get UK health care for your condition and you got your answer ..  No. (Fine, I can accept that is 'no', but why should it be?)

[/quote]

The sad thing is Ron, you obviously have a lot of knowledge and experience that, presumably by always being on here, you are prepared to share with others. So, why not give it graciously?

Perhaps you would like to point me to the piece you re-read where I said I did not want to pay health insurance?

Oh, and I apologise for my slight about your blood pressure - I have deleted the offending line.

[memb]

According to the British Embassy statement which can be viewed from the link Helen is correct about picking up on the 5 year rule from the EU Legislation.

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1059132495834 Surely a lot of checking and double checking will have been done before they put this statement on their website.

[Ron Avery]

Gus let's not prolong this.  My blood pressure was OK before the last week or so. You were,  I thought,  looking for a way to keep being treated in the UK for your ailment whilst really living in France which would be illegal and would have entailed you having to take out an expensive insurance policy in France, given a previous condition. 

Your solution would be expensive and impratical as your residence, (see other threads) would be in France irrespective of your travels.  You could of course have a holiday home but your proposed length of stay in France would bring into question your real residency status.

I apologise for the tone of my post, it was not so much aimed at you but at others who seem to want only to suggest ways to duck and dive, which had sadly been a talent of quite a lot of Brits  living in France.

[MrCanary]

Thank you for your apology for the tone of your post which I accept.

I think it is because I have never had so much as one day's unemployment in my entire working life and not ever received one day's handout that I reacted quickly. I would be happy to pay health insurance providing I can afford it.

I don't actually have a problem with what the French government are doing. My issues are with the UK government. They claim to be part of a united Europe, but do not seem to fully embrace it. When I reach my 60th birthday in 2008, I will have paid all that is required of me by UK rules, so why do they not let me (and others of a like mind) move freely in this united Europe and have my benefits follow me?

If I keel over with a serious ailment in France, Germany or anywhere else in Europe, surely the cost of my treatment should be paid by the UK? I am not asking this question of you, it is more a cry of despair and frustration!

[alison]

Not sure what catogory we fall in then... under 60, long term disabilty pension from the UK and on CPAM 100% . Been here over 3 years but after Carte Sejour's were not nessesary any more. We've heard nothing that suggests we will not be covered but are we now to worry that come 2008 we may just get a letter?

 

[MrCanary]

Alison,

According to what I have just tead on the www.dwp.gov.uk/international website, if you are already in receipt of a benefit in the UK, it will continue irrespective of your age.

Cooperola, 

Do you know which company is researching providing medical insurance for pre-existing conditions? Thanks... 

[Will]

"But presumably, if I retain a home in the UK, live in France for 2 months & 2 weeks, go back to the UK for 2 weeks, then back to France for 2 months & 2 weeks, back to the UK for 2 weeks and so on and so on..."

Just to replace the 'what if' with actual real life experience, that is exactly what I did from about 2003 to 2006 when producing a 2-monthly magazine for a client based in London. And. despite being paid by British companies, in sterling. I was considered resident in France for both tax and cotisations, and a member of the French health system. This situation was confirmed as correct by more than one accountant in both France and Britain.

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Gus Arasput"]

Cooperola, 

Do you know which company is researching providing medical insurance for pre-existing conditions? Thanks... 

[/quote]Gus have a look at the sticky thread "Health Care Providers" at the top of the child-board in the health section, re the new rules.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1017162/ShowPost.aspx

The copy of my e-mail from Kurt Harper is the pertinent one.  Now, this is not one company but hopefully, if negotiations go ahead as we hope - and things are very positive at present - then what will happen is that a number of UK insurers will get together to provide cover for all those expatriates who will be affected - an "Umbrella" policy for all, which would then be able to include those with long term conditions.  The way things are going, this looks like being in place within a few months (hopefully by the time the cut-off date of 31.3.2008 comes). See Hester's post here

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1023311/ShowPost.aspx

 In the meantime, it would be helpful if anybody affected could e-mail Kurt.  He is not the only person involved, so you would not be stepping on the toes of your existing insurers or agents.  But the industry - which is working together on this - needs to know the numbers likely to be involved so your input is useful, whatever you decide to do in the future.

[email protected]

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="alison"]

Not sure what catogory we fall in then... under 60, long term disabilty pension from the UK and on CPAM 100% . Been here over 3 years but after Carte Sejour's were not nessesary any more. We've heard nothing that suggests we will not be covered but are we now to worry that come 2008 we may just get a letter?

 

[/quote]To confirm what Gus says, if you are on an E121, then you will be unaffected (which I assume is the case as you have a long term disability.)  If you do not qualify for an E121, then you would be affected as others are until you reach UK state pensionable age.

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="alison"]

[/quote]To confirm what Gus says, if you are on an E121, then you will be unaffected (which I assume is the case as you have a long term disability.)  If you do not qualify for an E121, then you would be affected as others are until you reach UK state pensionable age.[/quote] 

Or as it now seems, according to the latest "clarification"  achieve five years residency.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="alison"]

[/quote]To confirm what Gus says, if you are on an E121, then you will be unaffected (which I assume is the case as you have a long term disability.)  If you do not qualify for an E121, then you would be affected as others are until you reach UK state pensionable age.[/quote] 

Or as it now seems, according to the latest "clarification"  achieve five years residency.

[/quote]This seems to be an EU directive, Ron.  I e-mailed the Embassy back when they mentioned this but, as before, no response!

[Tony F Dordogne]

Alison, when you arrived in France, did you come with or get subsequently get an E121 to cover your disability?  Your 100% (which I get for my disability treatment) means nothing in this instance, this is about access to treatment for those on an E106 which may or may not be about to expire or to be withdrawn by the State.

If you didn't have an E121 but obtained the 100% for your disability because that's what happens here, I'd look into things a little more to give yourself peace of mind, call or visit your CPAM office would be the first thing to do.

[cooperlola]

The "5 year rule"

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12017.xhtml?&n=Etrangers%20en%20France&l=N8&n=Citoyens%20communautaires%20en%20France&l=N112

[jon]

I more than agree with what you say!
I have run my own buisness for many, many years and have worked far too many hours.When I became seriously ill several years ago I got no financial help....of course....and my buisness suffered as I could not work for six months.

Luckily stronge and recovered and so did the buisness and went from loosing to selling the buisness for a good price at the perfect moment.The goverment did extreemly well from the sale in Capitol gains and, I suppose from my contributions at all times.It is

I suppose  a UK resposability.I will conmtinue to work I will continue to work in France.

 

 

 

[derf]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

The "5 year rule"

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F12017.xhtml?&n=Etrangers%20en%20France&l=N8&n=Citoyens%20communautaires%20en%20France&l=N112

[/quote]

As far as I can see nothing has changed, unless I am missing something[:)]

[Benjamin]

Can

one

of

the

Mods

try

to

shorten

some

of

the

links

please

?

[:D]

[Chris]

OK,   another avenue to consider for those who have been here for 5 years and over, is applying for French nationality, given one can satisfy the requirements of course.

[ali-cat]

I don't want to be throwing the cat among the pigeons but ..... what exactly does having French nationality entitle?

We were talking to a French man about all this healthcare confusion and he said that a single French person, who has been out of work (hence not paying contributions) for 5 years is not covered by CMU.  A married person is able to piggyback onto their spouses.

Therefore, if a British person or couple are not working, will they be covered regardless of their nationality status? 

[cooperlola]

Ali-cat, this is one of the things which makes me very suspicious of the 5 year rule thing/nationality etc.  As the CMU is unavailable to many French citizens, how is it applied to us?  It would be good to see this from an official French source.  No doubt we can get either permanent residency or, should we wish, nationality after 5 years, but where oh where is its relationship to the CMU confirmed?  Our source for this info' is unrealiable.  Humph.

[BJSLIV]

Coops

You sound as though you might need cheering up, so does this help......

http://www.senat.fr/rap/l05-371-1/l05-371-145.html

It's the Parliamentary report from when the new laws were being discussed. Its includes the famous five year residence qualification and then goes on to explain the implications. Note the part in red!

- avoir résidé en France depuis au moins cinq ans sans interruption et en toute légalité. Il est en outre exigé des membres de leur famille, ressortissants d'un Etat tiers, qu'ils aient résidé en France de manière ininterrompue et légale pendant les cinq années précédentes avec le ressortissant communautaire précité ;

- ne pas menacer l'ordre public.

Le droit au séjour permanent est plus favorable que le droit au séjour ordinaire :

- le ressortissant ayant acquis un droit au séjour permanent en France ne peut plus le perdre s'il cesse de remplir les conditions prévues au chapitre précédent, notamment s'agissant des conditions de ressources et de l'obligation de disposer d'une assurance maladie ;

[cooperlola]

Thank you BJSLIV.  Excellent.  Now, it is bottle opening time...[B]

The visit to the dentist didn't help my day, but at least I didn't have to pay!

[Helen]

Thankyou BJSLIV. That seems to be clearer than most other sources which don't define exactly what is meant by no more conditions.

The CMU regulations say that you are entitled as long as you are in stable and legal residence and have no other entitlement to assurance maladie.

The only phrase that might  seem to cause a problem (definition?)

Ne peuvent être assurés au titre de la résidence les membres du personnel consulaire et diplomatique, ainsi que leur famille, les personnes venues en France pour y recevoir des soins et les retraités des organisations internationales. My take on this is organisations like the UN etc but does it mean something different in French?