Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Poppy"]In the old days when we had to have private health insurance in France the French government did not lay down any min or max requirements. However admission to hospital was fun, numerous calls to insurers 'no its not an existing condition etc etc etc.' Once hospital were happy they would get paid you were admitted if they weren't getting paid you were shown the door.[/quote]Did any French companies provide full insurance then, or did you use a UK company?

[Ron Avery]

Helen just to show that all this conjecture and opinion  albeit from official sources is not to be relied on, the Ameli.fr  Assurance Maladie on line,  have no knowledge of any exceptions to the rules on "inactifs" based on having five years residence, I hope they do put that in because that would be the basis for a legal challenge if ever there was one.

[makfai]

[quote user="Clair"]This is the official clarifying statement:

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm
[/quote]

 

I see this is a modified version as of today.  Can anyone save me time by pointing out what has been modified?

[cooperlola]

A very cursory look seems to show only a specific date for the changes has been added.  I can't see much more at present.  I'll have a closer look later - must open a bottle - the sun's over the yardarm and I need one!

[makfai]

Cooperlola:  Have one of these [B] first from me......you should never drink on an empty stomach[:D]

[Chris]

I just had a quick delve into the archives and found this: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexplus!prod!CELEXnumdoc&numdoc=61979J0110&lg=en

The case is not related to health, but pensions.  However, the priciple established was:

2 . ARTICLES 1 ( A ) AND 3 OF REGULATION NO 1408/71

MUST BE INTERPRETED AS MEANING THAT IT IS FOR THE LEGISLATURE OF EACH

MEMBER STATE TO LAY DOWN THE CONDITIONS CREATING THE RIGHT OR THE

OBLIGATION TO BECOME AFFILIATED TO A SOCIAL SECURITY SCHEME OR TO A

PARTICULAR BRANCH UNDER SUCH A SCHEME PROVIDED ALWAYS THAT IN THIS

CONNEXION THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN NATIONALS OF THE HOST

STATE AND NATIONALS OF THE OTHER MEMBER STATES .

It begs the question if anyone knows the answer, what is the position of a French national who decides he can live on his savings, or wins the lottery at 55 and decides to pack-in work.  Will he no longer be covered for health? Does he have to join the CMU once his cotisations from his salary stop? Is he allowed to take out private medical insurance that as yet does not exist and was for him illegal?

Obviously, if there is a difference in how he is treated by the system, then surely there is a case for discrimination isn't there?

[cheminot]

I think the only modification is that it makes it clear that for anyone with an e106 which runs out in january 2008 will not qualify for any period of grace to obtain alternative healthcare.

cheminot

[cooperlola]

[quote user="makfai"]

Cooperlola:  Have one of these [B] first from me......you should never drink on an empty stomach[:D]

[/quote]Ooh, thanks, Makfai, perfect.[:P]

[Will]

I think you will find the 'five year' thing is part of the European guidelines for establishing residence. It is certainly in the British law on European immigrants. But it only establishes residence, it does not necessarily mean that as an 'inactive' resident there will be any entitlement to state health assurance under the now-changing French system. But there again, it doesn't mean there will not be. Just one of the many questions that still have to be answered.

[Helen]

The reason I'm clinging, to 'the five year' thing is  because the CMU rules still say that you have the right to be affiliated. (unless they are using a different version of the text to the one online)

The decret( including the 2007 amendments) says that   to be eligible for the CMU a person has to be in stable and permanent residence  moreover a foreigner has  to 'justifier qu'elles sont en situation régulière au regard de la législation sur le séjour des étrangers en France à la date de leur affiliation.'.

By the EU and French laws of  March 2004 ,in  order to be legally resident,  a person has to  to demonstrate resourses and their own health care provisions . This appears to be  why people are 'no longer' eligible.

However, after five years a EU national becomes entitled to a titre de sejour permanent (without having to prove resources) so they are not  (as it is written at the moment) excluded from membership.

At the moment, those who have been  resident  for five years (who should have had a carte de sejour stating date of entry) and joined the CMU before March 2004   are both permanent residents and  were legal residents at the date of their affiliation. to the CMU.

If nothing else this whole incident has improved my command of written French.

[Poppy]

Cooperlola   We used a UK company, in 1990 everything was primitive in rural France. One reason for UK policy was it covered us for emergency treatment in UK. Thinking of travel insurance if one is not affiliated to the French health system then presumably no E111 so necessary to purchase travel insurance or ensure it is included in private policy.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Will"]Just one of the many questions that still have to be answered.[/quote]

Quite, Will.  All the more disturbing then, that the Embassy letter seems to imply that this has been resolved, not that it is still to be finalised.  Humph.

Poppy : Certainly some of the plans I have looked at for full cover include the whole of Europe.  As those affected are in effect, becoming stateless in terms of healthcare, then nobody would issue an EHIC to them.  Full cover for all travel (including trips back to the UK of course) would be essential.

[ali-cat]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

Ali

Will you be affected by the UK Government's new system which will require individual counselling for ICB claimants with a view to finding a pathway back to some kind of work.?

[/quote]

Hard to say.  I've heard that a 'new' work focused benefit regime is to be introduced but that this will not apply to existing ICB claimants.  Plus its difficult to imagine how this would work with expats.  I wouldn't be surprised however if this led to another 'residency' clause for receipt of ICB.

CooperLola

We weren't looking for sympathy but your concern is most appreciated.  At least our conditions are not life threatening - just life limiting.

Mr Cat

[memb]

This subject has just been on the BBC lunchtime news, report by Brian Hanrahan, featured the British man who was asked to return his Carte Vitale, also someone from Exclusive Healthcare insurance, plus a French doctor who advised not all would be able to afford insurance and may have to return to the UK, more info available on www.bbc.co.uk/britsabroad

 A further report is to be done tomorrow featuring Brits healthcare in Spain.   

[Sprogster]

From my experience in having private health insurance over many years there is a major limitation frequently overlooked, in that long term chronic illnesses are not covered beyond  diagnosis and primary treatment stage. As such insurance is only intended to cover acute conditions.

Therefore, if for example one unfortunately was diagnosed with a long term incurable neuroligal condition or diabetes you would have to fall back on some form of government health support for your long term care, as you would probably not be covered by private health insurance.

Another problem is that private health insurance is on an annual contract basis and if you have a poor claims history, that can be reflected in an increase in your premiums when the policy comes up for annual renewal.

  

[MrCanary]

[quote user="Sprogster"]

Therefore, if for example one unfortunately was diagnosed with a long term incurable neuroligal condition or diabetes you would have to fall back on some form of government health support for your long term care, as you would probably not be covered by private health insurance.  

[/quote]

So, forgive me if this has been said and I have missed it, if I move to France next year at age 59, my blood pressure problem will not be covered there and not covered back in the UK once I have been away three months? Have I got that right?

But presumably, if I retain a home in the UK, live in France for 2 months & 2 weeks, go back to the UK for 2 weeks, then back to France for 2 months & 2 weeks, back to the UK for 2 weeks and so on and so on, I will be covered?

 

[Ron Avery]

So, forgive me if this has been said and I have missed it, if I move to France next year at age 59, my blood pressure problem will not be covered there and not covered back in the UK once I have been away three months? Have I got that right?  You will not be covered for anything without private health insurance

But presumably, if I retain a home in the UK, live in France for 2 months & 2 weeks, go back to the UK for 2 weeks, then back to France for 2 months & 2 weeks, back to the UK for 2 weeks and so on and so on, I will be covered?

There are other measures of residency apart fron time spent in a country.  The UK could still decide from that scenario that you are no longer resident in the UK, but please lets not waste people's time on "what if" scenarios.  The costs of going back and forth to France and maintaining a UK home would surely far outweigh the costs of any health insurance premium.

[bigears]

hi

not an expert on anything, just ducking and diving a bit.  I was under the impressing you could spend up to 182 days ia year n france, if you are resident in the uk. 

[Ron Avery]

" Bigears tried to write " I was under the impression  you could spend up to 182 days a year n France, if you are resident in the UK". 

 Yes you have trotted this out several times bigears and each time you have been told that there are other criteria to residency. Under the above cunning plan he would spend 8 months in France anyway.

In the current environment of people being deeply concerned for their future, smart arse ducking and diving contributions such as your normal posts are not really welcome or helpful, the people most affected by the proposed changes are those who followed the rules, perhaps if there had been less ducking and diving, we might not be where we appear to be today.

[cooperlola]

I am sure that there are ways to cheat the system - that's up to an individual's conscience.  If you can figure a way to flout the law and you get away with it - that's up to you.  But as Ron says, don't expect all that many people to give you a list of helpful hints as to how to do this.

As far as private health cover is concerned, there are moves afoot to try to help those with  pre-existing medical conditions, to get private health cover - no doubt at a cost but sadly, that's the problem with legal means - they are more expensive. 

[Me0wp00]

My husband and I have spent alot of time discussing this as we have 1 child of 3 here in school and am about to have another within the next month and so it is very concerning, more especially as DH is diabetic that we only have 6 months left of our healthcare.  Private isn't really a realistic option with kids and DH's illness plus the cost would be very frightening compared with our 8% contributions atm.   We do not want to go back to the uk permanently and as *youngsters* of 32 and 36 have many working years left.  As far as I can see we have some options although limited due to our french, we're in rural france and get by but I'm sure with the unemployment levels here we aren't going to be employed as there are plenty of young french people who would get the roles first and tbh quite rightly so, it's their country they should be first in line for the jobs. 

If we went back to the uk, worked and paid our NI contributions for 2 years and then came back to france with a workers e106 (we previously had a workers e106 for 4 years and each year DH worked in the uk) and which meant that DH would have to work in the uk each year to maintain our workers e106 until we managed to get jobs in france would this be acceptable under the new rules.

Or I or DH could get work helping people in their homes with the internet or me cleaning or babysitting under the Cheques d'emploi system which I understand gives you a CV straight away although no other benefits (sickness, maternity,pensions) until you have been working 60 hours a month, but how many hours would we need to work to get the CV alone, ???

Or register as a business and pay our cotisations although the timing with me about to give birth couldn't be much worse but  will probably be the long term answer

Or if this 5 year rule comes into force we will have been here 5 years in January and our CDS's expire then and we might still be able to pay our 8% although I can't see how this will work in reality.

It's all very stressful and even though the reasons we came to france (for a better life for our children and for me to be a stay at home mum during their early years) are still very important to us, may become less of a reality in the near future because of the health situation.

[cooperlola]

Others (Makfai amongst them) have posted re the 5 year rule, and with our understanding at present, this appears, at least on the surface to be uncontestable under EU law, so you should have built up the required time by the cut-off date for your CMU cover of 31.3.08.  How this is done, we'll endeavour to find out but you could help both yourself and many others by talking to your local CPAM and you Mairie about this - and how you go about establishing your residency for this period, and what the other conditions are or would be. 

I have a friend who is a high-up in the Fabian Society - who are a policy think-tank - and she may be able to help me clarify this.  I am working on it but the French point of view is really important so anything you can find out from your end would be very useful.  Until individuals start asking these questions at local level, everything we know about how this will work is anecdotal at best.

[MrCanary]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

but please lets not waste people's time on "what if" scenarios.  The costs of going back and forth to France and maintaining a UK home would surely far outweigh the costs of any health insurance premium.

[/quote]

Nobody asked you to reply, so please do not arrogantly suggest that my question was wasting your time.

Similarly, do not assume that everybody is trying to fleece the system. I am self-employed and even if I followed my scenario, I would continue to pay N.I. contributions in the UK.

I asked my question because my wife and I wanted to move to France next year and have my health conditions covered. We have learned that private insurance does not cover pre-existing conditions. Thus, my enquiry.

........line deleted by way of an apology........

[Cat]

Ahem, please folks...

I know that this is an emotive subject, and that the uncertainty is causing a good deal worry and stress to many people, but it really doesn't help others to follow the flow of information if posts degenerate into personal slights.

I'm not going to throw the code of conduct at anyone, but please do try to keep things civil.

There, I did ask nicely... [:)]

[cooperlola]

Gus, I suspect lots of people's blood pressures are a little high at the moment!  Sadly, most of us pay or have paid our full 30 years' NI contributions, but this only covers our pensions and social security payments, if we are entitled to them.  It does not cover health care.  Our own government's reaction thus far has been "It's a matter for the French, not us."

I'm sure you've looked into being self-employed over here, whilst working for a UK company, and paying full cotisations instead.  My own take on this is that if you have work here, you can contribute to and therefore benefit from, the French system.  If you live and work in the UK but spend a portion of the year here during which you don't carry out any work (and the length of that portion is not easily definable, but certainly would have to be less than half your time) then presumably, you would have a UK EHIC which would take care of your medical needs here.  The scenario you quoted (2 weeks UK, 2 months France) would definately make you a French resident, and you would have to have private health cover here.