Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion

[Benjamin]

So, if you don't have an E106 or an E121 but you have an uninsurable pre existing medical condition then you cannot fulfil the French Government requirement to have private medical insurance.

I can see a few For Sale notices going up before next March.

[Chris]

No, I think for all intents and purposes it is dead in the water.  The new decree says that if you are coming to France private  insurance is the only medical insurance available.  If during the 2 years of E106 'cover' serious medical problems arise as we have heard from other posters, getting private cover will I expect be difficult.

' to get started in France'  what does that mean - get started at what?  One has to come here ready to hit the ground running as far as health cover is concerned.  I can see no reason to have an E106 ( OK, it's 2 years 'free' entry to CMU then after that you are thrown out possible with nowhere to go!) 

[cooperlola]

If you're 63, it'll help (or 58 for women, at present) Chris.

[Jazzer]

Has anyone tried to get a quote for private insurance?What would existing conditions cover?Would  conditions such as Thyroid or blood pressure count? So far I have been thinking of obtaining hospital cover only and paying for all other teatments, doctor, prescriptions, dentist and optician on  a use by use basis

[derf]

It will save several thousand euros for a couple on an E106 also they now know the choices and expenses they will incur for health insurance once the E106 form runs out, so they can choose to become resident or not before they are entitled to an E121.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Quillan old chap, how can it be  clear and concise if you raise questions from it?

I don't understand why your mates with private pension income are different or why they need to go to CPAM with a P60, they should pay tax in France on these pensions like the rest of us and send a copy of their tax bill to CPAM each year.  But anyway,  they are no different to anybody else below retirement age and may or may not be classed at the moment as inactives who may be thrown out of the CMU in 6 months time. By raising the issue of people who pay into the CMU Base, you have replicated the exact point that I posted above. So how is it clear or concise is this statement when nobody knows who it actually applies to?

[/quote]

Yes Ron you are right. My first thought (and I just wanted to see if I was right) is that they will loose their health cover and to be honest the way I read it that's whats going to happen. The clear and concise thing is that its not mentioned therefore they will be grouped with those that may nothing.

The two people in question are ex UK military (in their mid 50's) hence they have to pay tax in the UK but do declare it in France and pay no tax. They are of the belief that although the French tax guy said they don't have to complete a French tax form (because they have to pay tax in the UK) it's best to do so then nobody can point fingers at them later on. Also you can never quite trust what a French official tells you, ask three the same question, you get three different answers [:)] .

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Jazzer"]Has anyone tried to get a quote for private insurance?What would existing conditions cover?Would  conditions such as Thyroid or blood pressure count? So far I have been thinking of obtaining hospital cover only and paying for all other teatments, doctor, prescriptions, dentist and optician on  a use by use basis[/quote]Jazzer, at present, all the policies I have looked at would seem to consider things like thyroid and blood pressure problems as pre-existing and therefore not covered.  See my thread

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1/1017162/ShowPost.aspx#1017162

There are hospital cover only policies but these would mainly not cover any treatment which might arise as a result of those pre-existing conditions.  However, if you look at my quote from one broker towards the end of page 1, you will see that the industry is looking at ways in which to help people like you - by producing an Umbrella policy which would protect those in your situation.  I'm in touch with him, and others in the industry, and will keep the thread up to date.

[derf]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Clair"]This is the official clarifying statement:

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm

[/quote]

I also wonder what will happen to those that have always declaired their earnings (French earnings to the French tax authorities) but have fallen below the limit to pay CPAM.

I also wonder what, if any, effect this will have on house prices and the French economy what with many selling up and going home.

[/quote]

From the 1st of October they and myself included will have 6 months to get private health cover[:)]

[cooperlola]

[quote user="derf"]It will save several thousand euros for a couple on an E106 also they now know the choices and expenses they will incur for health insurance once the E106 form runs out, so they can choose to become resident or not before they are entitled to an E121.
[/quote]Will it save them several thousand euros?  There are presumably a few people with high incomes who were forced into the CMU and for whom 8% of their income is in fact more than they would have paid for private insurance (indeed I remember one or two posters on here who were not at all pleased at being obliged to join the CMU de base).  As the French government is now saying this was a mistake, will they now get their money back?[6]

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Jazzer"] So far I have been thinking of obtaining hospital cover only and paying for all other teatments, doctor, prescriptions, dentist and optician on  a use by use basis[/quote]

I don't think this is an option. The French Social Security document states that you must have medical insurance in place.

[Chris]

Yes OK Cooperlola, I'll give you that one! But my general observation is that the E106 will not be worth much in the future to many 'resortissants' unless their arrival is carefully timed.

Just to put all this into bit of context - Sarko's push to stop French people retiring early etc.  Our son in law works for SNCF and they retire at 55, much to the pique of those who have to work to 65.  They are perceived to be very well off. However, it is not widely known, or is ignored, that SNCF workers pay higher social securit charges than the rest and when they retire, they receive less too.  This is probably the same for civil servants and others who retire at 55. So while sorting out the domestic irritant of early retirees, it is not surprising that having foreigners on their soil in similar situations must be seen as a sore point and has to tackled too.

It's raining again!

[cooperlola]

I guess my point, Chris, is that those who are now feeling they must postpone their retirement to France, will be able to come at 63, not wait until they are at state pensionable age.  So it does have a value for some.

My o/h and I are both railway pensioners - he at least would be considered legitimately "retraite" if he had worked here!  And of course, we get smaller pensions than we would have done if we'd both carried on until 65.  But hey, we did it, it will now cost us more, but undoubtedly we couldn't have lived in the UK and done nothing as we do here - health insurance payments notwithstanding.  But then, at least at the moment, we have no "pre-existing conditions" apart from very mild asthma, so we're the very lucky ones, in spite of this.  There but for the grace of whomever, go all of us.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Jazzer"] So far I have been thinking of obtaining hospital cover only and paying for all other teatments, doctor, prescriptions, dentist and optician on  a use by use basis[/quote]

I don't think this is an option. The French Social Security document states that you must have medical insurance in place.



[/quote]yes, but it does not specify that it must be full cover, in the way that the CPAMs provide it.  In fact, few policies include gp visits, regular prescriptions, preventative care and screening etc.

[Jazzer]

Many thanks Cooperola.At least it gives us some hope.

[derf]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="derf"]It will save several thousand euros for a couple on an E106 also they now know the choices and expenses they will incur for health insurance once the E106 form runs out, so they can choose to become resident or not before they are entitled to an E121.

[/quote]Will it save them several thousand euros?  There are presumably a few people with high incomes who were forced into the CMU and for whom 8% of their income is in fact more than they would have paid for private insurance (indeed I remember one or two posters on here who were not at all pleased at being obliged to join the CMU de base).  As the French government is now saying this was a mistake, will they now get their money back?[6][/quote]

Then I guess a few people will be quite happy about the changes then, maybe thats why they are keeping quiet.[:D]

[Ron Avery]

Three points

Quillan's mates on not on private pensions, they get state pensions.  Whoever told them not to complete a French tax return had probably seen them kiss goodbye to any chance of staying in the CMU as they have to produce a French tax return to show residency and stay in it irrespective of whether the changes go through or not.

 Derf said "From the 1st of October they and myself included will have 6 months to get private health cover"

This is according to the clarification letter which CPAM are saying is not cast in stone and is liable to change in the next month.

Another point, you can only get an E 106 (if you do not come to France  to work), if you leave the UK and take up residence in France, you cannot legally get one whilst a visitor.

[ali-cat]

Being in posession of an E121 is no guarantee of an easy life.  For those of UK state retirement age with E121's - good for them - they deserve it.

We are both in our early-mid 40's, medically retired from the civil service and receiving Incapacity Benefit and hence have E121s.  Please note ICB is means tested - we only receive it because our ill-health retirement pensions are so low - but we hadn't expected to receive ICB in France and hadn't budgeted with this in mind.  In leaving the UK Ali surrendered any rights to mobility allowance (which would have covered our motoring costs) and higher rate DLA.  We moved to France because we felt the climate might help with Ali's condition.  Our intention was to use our remaining life savings to bridge the 20 odd years to state retirement age.  We arrived in France late last July having researched as much as we could and understanding that we could affiliate to the French healthcare system. Having made our first tax return in May I expected (wrongly?) and was happy to contribute our 8% on any income above the cut-off point for contributions.

We are now in a position where our future is entirely dependant on continuing receipt of ICB,  i.e.

Our healthcare is currently covered but presumably we are not affiliated to CMU - nor will we be while we have E121s;

We are unable to work due to the chronic health conditions which led to our medical retirement,  regardless of whether or not there would be a realistic chance of finding work in the present climate if we were capable;

If we lost our entitlement to ICB we could probably cope but we couldn't also afford the costs of private health insurance which would be required as a consequence of losing the E121; 

In all likelihood,  even if we could afford the health insurance we would not be covered for the existing conditions.

While there are undoubtedly some people with E121s 'swinging the lead' I doubt there are many as even those with genuine health problems can have severe difficulties qualifying.  The thought of facing the next 20 odd years facing continual medical reviews (Ali's due one soon) and worrying what other little 'tweaks' the UK or French governments are considering for us 'inactifs' is not pleasant. I'm sure there are others in a similar position.

Not hiding smugly behind an E121.

Mr Cat

[BJSLIV]

Ali

Will you be affected by the UK Government's new system which will require individual counselling for ICB claimants with a view to finding a pathway back to some kind of work.?

[cooperlola]

Mr Cat, I feel for you.  Many of us on here are busy contacting everybody we can think of to get the best deal on our behalf - hopefully not just those who are severly affected by this, but anybody who has a conscience will join in and lobby anybody who may be able to help put a case together.

One thing, when you say you are not affiliated to the CMU, surely you do have a Carte Vitale and a reference number?  The only difference being the technical one which means that the UK pays towards your healthcare, rather than the French state and its contributors, picking up the whole tab.  The system's all a bit techie for me!

Bon courage, the goalposts continue to move slightly day-by-day so things may not be totally clear yet. For instance, this latest bit of "advice" seems to suggest that after 5 years living permanently in France, you may yet be entitled to join the CMU de base.

Please look at the lobby thread and add your voice to everybody else's, in particular explain your circumstances to Mary Honeybell, who seems to be doing some co-ordination and lobbying on this on our behalf.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Jazzer"] So far I have been thinking of obtaining hospital cover only and paying for all other teatments, doctor, prescriptions, dentist and optician on  a use by use basis[/quote]

I don't think this is an option. The French Social Security document states that you must have medical insurance in place.

[/quote]yes, but it does not specify that it must be full cover, in the way that the CPAMs provide it.  In fact, few policies include gp visits, regular prescriptions, preventative care and screening etc.[/quote]

I cannot see the French Government specifying that you must have private medical insurance and then not setting minimum requirements which I also would expect to be pretty high. What's going to happen the first time somebody gets whisked into emergency with a heart attack only to find that their insurance doesn't cover all of the costs involved and they don't have sufficient private funds to meet the excess?

The other point to bear in mind here is do you think that the French Government are going tp accept policies written by UK based insurance companies when French banks won't accept English life insurance ploicies? Not in a month of Sundays.

Once the French equivalent of the red tops get hold of this bit of news and maul it into screaming headlines then Sarko and his Government are going to be just about the most popular people in France.

[cooperlola]

Benjamin, many have UK top-up policies (Exclusive, Exeter Friendly etc.) without problems - these are paid for here in Euros, but are underwritten in the UK by Lloyds.

If people's insurance policies are inadequate, then I imagine that claims will be made against their property and other assets if they are not covered - in the same way as any debt is reclaimed.  There is no such thing as a true "full cover" policy that anything like approaches the level of the CPAM coverage amongst any I have looked at.  But full costs of hospital treatment (emergency and otherwise) is available.  But not from any French company thus far (although some are discussing producing these).  I was responding to Jazzer's query about hospital cover only policies and although these are not specifically available, certainly there are those which cover such major (and potentially the most devastating) costs, whilsts gp visits, routine drugs, dental treatment, eye care etc are excluded - which I think is what he is after.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Benjamin, many have UK top-up policies (Exclusive, Exeter Friendly etc.) without problems - these are paid for here in Euros, but are underwritten in the UK by Lloyds.

[/quote]

But they're not obligatory or requested by any Government...............the whole situation changes when the French Government become involved and until we see the detail to back up today's statement we are merely speculating.

The reason I made the post was to try and get people to stop thinking in terms of what's gone on before but to start looking at this situation in the way the details may come out when these are fleshed up.

[Helen]

I've also just received the E mail from the British Embassy. The sad thing is that I don't have any confidence in their reply since they seem to have got it wrong before.There's certainly no mention of a five year residency on the social securite communique.

Nevertheless (fingers and everything else crossed) it does seeem to be justified by the paragraph  on Service-public.fr specifically talking about inactifs.

Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, le citoyen européen ou assimilé qui a résidé de façon légale et ininterrompue en France pendant les cinq années précédentes acquiert un droit au séjour permanent sur l'ensemble du territoire français. 

A l'issue de cette période, il n'a plus besoin de justifier les conditions de son séjour (ressources par exemple). 

For us it would be a great relief as are in the fortunate position of having an out of date titre de sejour which states our legal date of entry. We got one in spite of several people telling us that no-one bothered with it any more.  

The stress of this affair overall must be causing many sleeples nights to many people. It can't be doing any good to anyones health. As a diabetic I have to test my blood sugar several times a day. My  readings reflect the stress with an average of 20% higher BS in the last 3 weeks than at any time in the last year.

[cooperlola]

Benjamin : Hopefully, some French insurance companies are looking at this.  At any rate, as you say, all will depend upon what the specifics turn out to be.  I'm talking to two brokers about this - one of whom is based here in a French company so is keeping up to date with things.  I'll pass on any info' I get when I can.  EU law may of course bite the French government in the backside on this one, as it's hard to see how they'll be able to specify where our insurance comes from, when their own industry provides none.  We shall see.  We have a few months to sort this.

[Poppy]

In the old days when we had to have private health insurance in France the French government did not lay down any min or max requirements. However admission to hospital was fun, numerous calls to insurers 'no its not an existing condition etc etc etc.' Once hospital were happy they would get paid you were admitted if they weren't getting paid you were shown the door.