French healthcare questions

[EuroTrashII]

At the risk of stating the obvious - AE is not, and was never meant to be, a route to healthcare. And the sooner people stop recommending it as such, the better, IMHO.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="EuroTrashII"]At the risk of stating the obvious - AE is not, and was never meant to be, a route to healthcare. And the sooner people stop recommending it as such, the better, IMHO.[/quote]I can remember when we all thought we'd have to move back to the UK that some even suggested our working for one another under cheques d'emploi.  Equally amoral I guess but when faced with the "choice" I imagine it's a route some would have felt they had no option but to go down.    Maybe not right, but understandable perhaps?

[NormanH]

There is a red herring on this thread though, the so-called "8% "

If you do have your healthcare paid for by France, either because you have worked and gained a pension, or you have been down the AE route, then the only payments you make on retirement are CSG and CRDS on the pensions taxable in France, i.e. the OAP from the UK (if you get one) and the French pension which in most cases up till now would be very small.

A pension taxed at source in the UK is exempt.

The CMU has nothing to do with this.

Norman H pontificates: [6]

If you have a pension from France (however small)  and live here your health care should be paid for by France, and you should pay CSG and CFDT on your French pension, your OAP and possibly other income.

If you have pensions from other countries in Europe in which you do not live, your health care is paid for by the country who pays the largest pension via an S1, and you are exempt from French charges.

This is not in fact working in practice yet, but may become an issue.

In any case the future plan is to include these charges in the tax system, and no longer keep them separate.

[cooperlola]

Thank you for the correction, Norman.    So if France were my competent state on retirement then I'd no longer pay the 8% which I do now, just the other bits and pieces - correct?

Way better if the new system were to come into being, imho, and all to become income tax.  The "social charges" have always seemed vaguely batty to me.

[cooperlola]

Here's another question, then.  If a person sets up an AE at the age of 59, can they retire at 60 and thus stop contributing to their caisse and save 5 years of additional payments that they would have been liable for if they'd carried on to 65  to get an S1 from the UK?  I'm just playing around, you understand, I'm sure there are serious flaws in this.

[NormanH]

Yes. As SD said above

"This 8% that everyone is talking about is the means tested

contribution towards couverture maladie universelle which only

concerns people who do not otherwise qualify for state health insurance

cover.  It doesn't apply to people in receipt of old age retirement

pensions, either British or French. "

I agree with him.

Where we disagree is on who designates  the 'competent state' that pays the health costs.

I believe what I said in my last post.  I think  that he considers the individual can choose. 

In every other aspect we are 100% in agreement.

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="NormanH"]Yes. As SD said above
"This 8% that everyone is talking about is the means tested contribution towards couverture maladie universelle which only concerns people who do not otherwise qualify for state health insurance cover.  It doesn't apply to people in receipt of old age retirement pensions, either British or French. "

I agree with him.

Where we disagree is on who designates  the 'competent state' that pays the health costs.

I believe what I said in my last post.  I think  that he considers the individual can choose. 

In every other aspect we are 100% in agreement.

[/quote]Fine, I do get that, I see that the CMU reference doesn't apply to the majority of workers/business owners here in France.  I assume this applies to all the caisses - ie the cotis you pay towards healthcare out of your salaray/profits etc stop on retirement?

[idun]

Yes, but if you had a half decent pension in France then you'd have to pay 6.5% to the french. As SD said over 10K€.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="idun"]

Yes, but if you had a half decent pension in France then you'd have to pay 6.5% to the french. As SD said over 10K€.

[/quote]Thanks, Idun, this is what I was trying to get at.[:)]

EDIT : You mentioned 7.5% earlier.   Either way it's a worse deal than being under an S1.

[NormanH]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Here's another question, then.  If a person sets up an AE at the age of 59, can they retire at 60 and thus stop contributing to their caisse and save 5 years of additional payments that they would have been liable for if they'd carried on to 65  to get an S1 from the UK?  I'm just playing around, you understand, I'm sure there are serious flaws in this.[/quote]

I think that the cover provided by the AE only continues while still in activity or possibly for a short time after.

It starts immediately, and you don't have to pay any contributions in the first couple of quarters, but that state of affairs doesn't last.

I am vague on the detail of AE though.

In a normal job your cover continues for a couple of years after you stop paying côtisations, though his is masked by the fact that while you are on chômage or RSA those côtisations are paid for you.

If you could imagine someone who had no job and no entitlement to RSA they would lose their cover eventually, hence the CMU brought in in 2000.

[NormanH]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="idun"]

Yes, but if you had a half decent pension in France then you'd have to pay 6.5% to the french. As SD said over 10K€.

[/quote]Thanks, Idun, this is what I was trying to get at.[:)]

EDIT : You mentioned 7.5% earlier.   Either way it's a worse deal than being under an S1.

[/quote]

Yes it is, and a source of irritation for people caught in the situation with no choice.

You can imagine two person who come to France at 50 on early retirement Local government pension

Both are in identical tax situations

One stays 'inactif' and pays  8%  of income  for the CMU until 60/65 when the S1 Kicks in and health care is paid by the UK

The other in the same circumstances works and gets cover from that caisse,  paying contributions from the French salary  but at 60/65 has to continue paying contributions because health care is paid for bt France.

Details of what is payable by whom here (I think it is 6.6 for retired people + .5 for crds)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contribution_sociale_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ralis%C3%A9e

whether they are social charges or taxes has caused great debate..

[tinabee]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="cooperlola"]Here's another question, then.  If a person sets up an AE at the age of 59, can they retire at 60 and thus stop contributing to their caisse and save 5 years of additional payments that they would have been liable for if they'd carried on to 65  to get an S1 from the UK?  I'm just playing around, you understand, I'm sure there are serious flaws in this.[/quote]

I think that the cover provided by the AE only continues while still in activity or possibly for a short time after.
It starts immediately, and you don't have to pay any contributions in the first couple of quarters, but that state of affairs doesn't last.
I am vague on the detail of AE though.

In a normal job your cover continues for a couple of years after you stop paying côtisations, though his is masked by the fact that while you are on chômage or RSA those côtisations are paid for you.
If you could imagine someone who had no job and no entitlement to RSA they would lose their cover eventually, hence the CMU brought in in 2000.
[/quote]

They would not be able to retire at 60 since they would not have accumulated enough pension contributions (trimestres) to do this, so effectively by starting AE at 59 and stopping at 60, all they would achieve is to become inactive again. Under AE there are minimum turnovers required to validate a trimestre - see here

http://www.auto-entrepreneur.fr/retraite.php

AFAIK, if you close an AE business your healthcare cover continues for 12 months, the same as if a work contract ended.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="tinabee"]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="cooperlola"]Here's another question, then.  If a person sets up an AE at the age of 59, can they retire at 60 and thus stop contributing to their caisse and save 5 years of additional payments that they would have been liable for if they'd carried on to 65  to get an S1 from the UK?  I'm just playing around, you understand, I'm sure there are serious flaws in this.[/quote]

I think that the cover provided by the AE only continues while still in activity or possibly for a short time after.
It starts immediately, and you don't have to pay any contributions in the first couple of quarters, but that state of affairs doesn't last.
I am vague on the detail of AE though.

In a normal job your cover continues for a couple of years after you stop paying côtisations, though his is masked by the fact that while you are on chômage or RSA those côtisations are paid for you.
If you could imagine someone who had no job and no entitlement to RSA they would lose their cover eventually, hence the CMU brought in in 2000.
[/quote]

They would not be able to retire at 60 since they would not have accumulated enough pension contributions (trimestres) to do this, so effectively by starting AE at 59 and stopping at 60, all they would achieve is to become inactive again. Under AE there are minimum turnovers required to validate a trimestre - see here

http://www.auto-entrepreneur.fr/retraite.php

AFAIK, if you close an AE business your healthcare cover continues for 12 months, the same as if a work contract ended.

[/quote]Thanks. I'm often asked these kinds of questions, so the info' is really useful.  I am grateful to all of you.[:)]

[Russethouse]

In addition the age of retirement in the UK is now going up, I have had to wait an extra 50 weeks before beginning to receive pension, I'm in one of the first tranches of people the changes will affect (ie those in their fifties now) will have to wait longer, men too.

Just as an example my sister is six years and 10 months younger than me, but there will be 14 years difference in when we receive our pensions.

[cooperlola]

We have not seen the last of that either, for sure.  I'll bet your kids will be in their 70s and their kids in their 80s  before they retire, at this rate.  Although what they'll do for work is anybody's guess.  Thankfully, I have none to worry about.

[tinabee]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

In addition the age of retirement in the UK is now going up, I have had to wait an extra 50 weeks before beginning to receive pension, I'm in one of the first tranches of people the changes will affect (ie those in their fifties now) will have to wait longer, men too.

Just as an example my sister is six years and 10 months younger than me, but there will be 14 years difference in when we receive our pensions.

[/quote]

The age of earliest retirement is also going up to 62 in France, as well as having to have more trimestres for a full rate pension.

[Russethouse]

At least I only needed 30 years of contributions - as it happened  I had quite a lot of home responsibilities credits [:)]

[Keni]

Me, I've gone from 60 to 64 and now 66 before my state pension kicks in!

[Mrs B]

Hi

Apologies for re-activating this rather old thread but we have been doing our sums for the 3 years after our respectives S1s run out so our only option would be private insurance which will be too expensive for us as hubby has several pre-existing health issues - in addtiton to which we'll have to pay for the x% that is not covered by the French healthcare normally?

So our next option will be for me to get a job in France - there is a small chance that I may be able to transfer to the French branch of my current emply. If I did that ie work for my employer's French bramch, will I be treated the same as AEs when I retire and be subject to additional taxes on my entire UK private pension and how much additional taxes will that be please? and in the same token, will my husband's pension be subjected to the same additioanl taxes? as I understand that in France, tax returns are submited per household so whatever extra taxes I have to pay will affect my husband's pension taxes as well? Apologies for the numerous questions. I have done a search on the net and the numerous websites tend to provide information for the standard taxes, etc for life in France but not much information for when one deviates from the norm

Thanks, Mrs B

 

[idun]

 What did you mean about additional taxes on your Uk private pension? As you would always have to declare your worldwide income when a french resident anyway and it would be taxed accordingly.

Yes, I can confirm that households declare their income and not individuals, yet again, french residents have to declare worldwide income so your husband would still have to declare it on your joint declaration, no matter your circumstances.

 French income tax is usually less than UK income tax.

 

If your company already has a french branch then your actual income could also change radically as well. Salary slips are very long in France and there are lots of stoppages before income tax. It also costs your company a fortune to employ you in France employers pay a lot in stoppages too, so depending on what you do, they may even suggest a reduction in salary. I have known this happen to people, and that is why I have mentioned it.

 

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

I'd guess that Mrs B meant the liability to the 'solidarité' cotisations, can't remember their names, that an S1 gets you out of. To all intents and purposes they are a tax.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Mrs B"]

Hi

Apologies for re-activating this rather old thread but we have been doing our sums for the 3 years after our respectives S1s run out so our only option would be private insurance which will be too expensive for us as hubby has several pre-existing health issues - in addtiton to which we'll have to pay for the x% that is not covered by the French healthcare normally?

So our next option will be for me to get a job in France - there is a small chance that I may be able to transfer to the French branch of my current emply. If I did that ie work for my employer's French bramch, will I be treated the same as AEs when I retire and be subject to additional taxes on my entire UK private pension and how much additional taxes will that be please? and in the same token, will my husband's pension be subjected to the same additioanl taxes? as I understand that in France, tax returns are submited per household so whatever extra taxes I have to pay will affect my husband's pension taxes as well? Apologies for the numerous questions. I have done a search on the net and the numerous websites tend to provide information for the standard taxes, etc for life in France but not much information for when one deviates from the norm

Thanks, Mrs B

 

[/quote]

If you work in France and then  get a pension paid by France you are covered by the French system, not by a S1

This is the case as long as you live in the country providing the health care (in this case France) , and has nothing to do with which country you paid most contributions in as some people seem to believe. I am a case in point as I have 32 years of NI contributions and only 10 in France, but it is still France who picks up the bill for my health care. I was mistakenly sent a S1 by the UK when I got my pension but when I took it to the Sécurité Sociale the mistake was picked up and I am considered as 'à la charge' of Frace

Someone who lives in France and is 'à la charge' of the French social security system does have to pay additional social contributions on pension income.

They cost

Pensions de retraite, d'invalidité

6,6 % (ou 3,8 % si faibles revenus)

4,2 %

0,5 %

100 % du revenu brut

This situation is likely to affect more and more British people who have worked however briefly in France and accrued a tiny pension.

[Mrs B]

Hi

Thanks for info, I thought it might be the case for the Brit employed in France. Would you know if my husband's pension will also be subjected to the additional taxes please? He will not be working (he's not 65 but already retired) if we do make the move across the channel

Re: the tax breakdown, would the invalidity element apply to everyone regardless of whether they are registered disabled or not? Can you also explain further what the 4.2% 0.5% and 100% of gross mean please?

I also read somewhere that if either husband or wife works in France, then the other is or can also be covered by the French healthcare? Is this correct and if so how would I apply to cover my husband as well please?

Thanks, MrsB

[NormanH]

Sorry the table isn't very clear.

There are different % of income that have to be paid according to how much your income is.

The top rate of CSG is 6.6% but can be 3.8% if a very low income.

However 4.2% is deductible from the next years income tax

the 0.5 is a separate tax the CRDS

Both are chargeable on 100% of income

The confusion about invalidity is because this applies to retirement pensions and invalidity pensions  but the way it is written on the French site is not very clear

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F2971.xhtml

The system is explained clearly in English on

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire/healthcare/index_en.htm

[Mrs B]

Hi Idun

Sorry I missed your post earlier, by additional taxes I was referring to the social taxes I understand all French retirees have to pay on their pension salaries - I believe this is similar to the NI contributions in UK, which is not payable by a retiree in the UK?

Thanks for the French salary slip info which I was not aware of, I will certainly keep this in mind if I do get offerred the French opportunity

MrsB