French healthcare questions

[idun]

I knew what AnOther meant.

 

If not working:

And depending on age when all this is done:

E106 for the first year or two in France.

Then pay private insurance until five years residence

.........then you might be taken into the french health system........or not, if people are in the french health system they will pay the 8% mentioned and if they want will take top up insurance.

Retirement age and an E121(S1) will be issued and you will be taken into the french health system and top up insurance if you want.

And this is all if Marine isn't President and then all will change for everyone.

[Sunday Driver]

You are missing the important bit...

".........then you might be taken into the french health system........or not, if people are in the french health system they will pay the 8% mentioned and if they want will take top up insurance.

Retirement age and an E121(S1) will be issued and you will be taken into the french health system and be exempt from the 8% mentioned and top up insurance if you want."

That's was Eurotrash was querying about AnOther's comment that the 8% would become payable when they reach UK state retirement age.........[;-)]

 

[idun]

I wasn't missing the point, I was just starting again. I knew what AnOther meant, but as you said, nomoss was querying.

[AnOther]

Just to be clear what I meant:

It is my understanding that if you work in France, as it seems the OP may have to for health cover, then even when you reach retirement age and get your E121 you will pay 8% on your UK pension/income which you would not have done otherwise.

One of the hidden downsides of AE [:(]

[idun]

But that is paying contributions when working isn't it? Which I thought that people in France had to do.

Please please remember that french people always have stoppages taken from  their state pensions the difference being that once an E121 kicks in, UK retirees who are not working don't pay stoppages and french people always pay 7.5%. That is how it is in France.

edit, that would mean when people moved to a job in France, that they shouldn't pay into the french social security system as an E106 would cover for the first up to two years. Gaining what getting on for 20% of their income and that doesn't happen either.

[Sprogster]

Mrs B, in a nutshell if you are looking to move to France as early retirees and don't want to work by setting up an AE, your only option is to take out comprehensive private medical insurance to cover the period from the expiration of your E106/S1 until your husband reaches UK State retirement age, when the UK government will cover your French health care through an S1. The fact that your husband has medication for cholesterol, reflux and osteo-arthritis in itself should not in itself prevent you obtaining comprehensive medical insurance cover, but might increase the cost of premiums.

If your husband is 59, you may have to only cover the cost of private health insurance for up to four years, against the downside of setting up an AE is that once you reach State retirement age you will have to contribute 8% of your retirement income over a certain amount for ever and that cost could easily exceed over time the cost of four years private health insurance.

[EmilyA]

I don't think that is right Sprogster. We retired and closed our micro-entreprise and now have our S1 forms because the UK is where we paid the (vast) majority of our contributions. Normal 70% cover no 8%.

[NormanH]

I think that if you make enough to qualify for a French Pension(however small) in theory it is France who pays for your health cover, not the UK, so you become liable for the CSG etc.

[EmilyA]

We received a pension but below the minimum for regular payments so we got a (small) lump sum each. Took S1 forms to health caisse and they were accepted.

[NormanH]

That's why I said in theory...

They don't seem to apply the rule strictly

[Sunday Driver]

This 8% that everyone is talking about is the means tested contribution towards couverture maladie universelle which only concerns people who do not otherwise qualify for state health insurance cover.  It doesn't apply to people in receipt of old age retirement pensions, either British or French.   

AEs who retire are entitled to a pension on the same basis as that of a retired salaried employee so they remain affiliated to the régime general for their state health insurance.  Unless they take up residence abroad and choose to pay a voluntary contribution to maintain their French state health insurance rights, they do not pay any further 'healthcare' contributions.

As regards Emily's case where she submitted her S1, this has no impact on her rights as as recipient of a French pension.  All it does is give the French social security a bonus in the form of a contribution from the foreign government which issued the S1.

Finally, as regards all French people paying stoppages from their pension, the 7.5% mentioned earlier by idun refers to CSG.  This is not payable if the French pension is below a specific threshold (around 10K€ for a single person) or where the pensioner is not 'a la charge d'un régime obligatoire d'assurance maladie' - ie through a form S1.

 

[NormanH]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

This 8% that everyone is talking about is the means tested contribution towards couverture maladie universelle which only concerns people who do not otherwise qualify for state health insurance cover.  It doesn't apply to people in receipt of old age retirement pensions, either British or French.   

AEs who retire are entitled to a pension on the same basis as that of a retired salaried employee so they remain affiliated to the régime general for their state health insurance.  Unless they take up residence abroad and choose to pay a voluntary contribution to maintain their French state health insurance rights, they do not pay any further 'healthcare' contributions.

As regards Emily's case where she submitted her S1, this has no impact on her rights as as recipient of a French pension.  All it does is give the French social security a bonus in the form of a contribution from the foreign government which issued the S1.

Finally, as regards all French people paying stoppages from their pension, the 7.5% mentioned earlier by idun refers to CSG.  This is not payable if the French pension is below a specific threshold (around 10K€ for a single person) or where the pensioner is not 'a la charge d'un régime obligatoire d'assurance maladie' - ie through a form S1.

 

[/quote]

Not on her rights as a recipient of a French pension. But as the recipient of a French pension it is technically the French who pay for health cover, not the UK through a S1. In this case the retired person is in the same case as " a retired salaried employee so affiliated to the régime general for  state health insurance"  That could lead to liability to pay CSG , although not 'healthcare contributions'

 But a she has already stated the French aren't insisting on this for obvious reasons...[:)]

[EuroTrashII]

<>

SD - the way I'm going I will have a very small pension because I rarely pay enough cotis to qualify for a chunk of pension. Any ideas on what would happen if you retire and in theory would get a pension, but in fact don't because you haven't clocked up enough qualifying trimestres?

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

This 8% that everyone is talking about is the means tested contribution towards couverture maladie universelle which only concerns people who do not otherwise qualify for state health insurance cover.  It doesn't apply to people in receipt of old age retirement pensions, either British or French.   

AEs who retire are entitled to a pension on the same basis as that of a retired salaried employee so they remain affiliated to the régime general for their state health insurance.  Unless they take up residence abroad and choose to pay a voluntary contribution to maintain their French state health insurance rights, they do not pay any further 'healthcare' contributions.

As regards Emily's case where she submitted her S1, this has no impact on her rights as as recipient of a French pension.  All it does is give the French social security a bonus in the form of a contribution from the foreign government which issued the S1.

Finally, as regards all French people paying stoppages from their pension, the 7.5% mentioned earlier by idun refers to CSG.  This is not payable if the French pension is below a specific threshold (around 10K€ for a single person) or where the pensioner is not 'a la charge d'un régime obligatoire d'assurance maladie' - ie through a form S1.

 

[/quote]

Not on her rights as a recipient of a French pension. But as the recipient of a French pension it is technically the French who pay for health cover, not the UK through a S1. In this case the retired person is in the same case as " a retired salaried employee so affiliated to the régime general for  state health insurance"  That could lead to liability to pay CSG , although not 'healthcare contributions'
 But a she has already stated the French aren't insisting on this for obvious reasons...[:)]
[/quote]

There is no liability to CSG or CRDS where the pensioner is not 'a la charge d'un régime obligatoire français d'assurance maladie'.

https://www.lassuranceretraite.fr/cs/Satellite/PUBPrincipale/Retraites/Paiement-Votre-Retraite/Prelevements-Sociaux?packedargs=null

By exercising her entitlement to an S1 so as to have her French state health insurance paid for by the UK government, Emily has also exempted herself from having to pay CSG/CRDS on her pension income, both French and English.

It's her legal right and the French can't insist on anything otherwise.......[;-)]

 

[NormanH]

We agree totally that "There is no liability to CSG or CRDS where the pensioner is not 'a la

charge d'un régime obligatoire français d'assurance maladie"

What we seem to differ on is the fact that technically ( as I said before the French aren't insisting on it) anybody resident in France with a French pension however small is "a la

charge d'un régime obligatoire français d'assurance maladie"

That is why the UK asks if you are in receipt of a pension from the country of residence when you apply for a S1. It is the French who should pay, and the recipient has no choice, certainly not "an entitlement to an S1 so as to have her French state health insurance paid for by the UK government"

As said in this case it is academic, but if the French pension had been bigger and declared to the UK there could be a refusal by the UK to issue a S1

[EmilyA]

Thanks SD that is useful clarification. I can't imagine our tax office would dispute it, but the link is helpful. RSI didn't know anything about the S1, but our health caisse understood straight away.  Norman, I was very clear when I spoke to Newcastle that we would receive a small French pension. They were equally clear that it was the country where the majority of contributions had been made who would issue the S1 i.e. the UK.

[NormanH]

If you receive a pension from the country where you live, you and your family are covered by that country's healthcare insurance system — whether or not you are also receiving pensions from other countries.

source :http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire/healthcare/index_en.htm

I would count that as 'à la charge' of France

[cooperlola]

[quote user="NormanH"]

If you receive a pension from the country where you live, you and your family are covered by that country's healthcare insurance system — whether or not you are also receiving pensions from other countries.

source :http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire/healthcare/index_en.htm

I would count that as 'à la charge' of France

[/quote]It depends. Further down:

if you receive a pension from several other EU countries, you belong to the healthcare insurance system of the country where you were insured for the longest period of time.

I think the info' is contradictory.

[idun]

it isn't really contradictory as these two are examples of not recieving pensions from the country where you live. And we come under the first example for now and then we will be recieving a pension where we live and will cancel the french S1 and be in the NHS, like ALL OTHER RESIDENTS of the UK...........

 

If you do not receive a pension or any other income from the country where you live, 2 situations are possible:

• if you receive a pension from another EU country, you belong to that country’s health insurance system
• if you receive a pension from several other EU countries, you belong to the healthcare insurance system of the country where you were insured for the longest period of time.

In either case you need to request a certificate of entitlement to healthcare – the S1 form (formerly known as an E 121) — from the health insurance authority in the country whose healthcare insurance system you belong to.

This document establishes your right to full healthcare coverage in your country of residence. You must submit it to the health insurance authority there.

In principle, you and your family are only fully entitled to medical treatment in the country where you live. However, some countries (see list below) offer pensioners who live abroad — but belong to their social security system — complete healthcare coverage on their territory too. 

[NormanH]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="NormanH"]

If you receive a pension from the country where you live, you and your family are covered by that country's healthcare insurance system — whether or not you are also receiving pensions from other countries.

source :http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire/healthcare/index_en.htm

I would count that as 'à la charge' of France

[/quote]It depends. Further down:

if you receive a pension from several other EU countries, you belong to the healthcare insurance system of the country where you were insured for the longest period of time.

I think the info' is contradictory.

[/quote]

I take that to mean

If you receive a pension from the country where you live, you and your family are covered by that country's healthcare insurance system — whether or not you are also receiving pensions from other countries.

(as it says) that is to say from the country where you live

But

if you receive a pension from several other EU countries, you belong to the healthcare insurance system of the country where you were insured for the longest period of time.

that is to say several pensions from other EU countries, not the one in which you live.

[Sprogster]

EmilyA, I will leave it to the OP's that are better informed than me to comment further, but it seems that in your type of situation it can go either way and good fortune therefore plays a part as how Newcastle deals with matters in deciding whether or not to issue an S1.

[NormanH]

It is clear that Emily has no worries[:)]

I am only raising it because as more and more people come to retirement here having worked in France, and probably with a more substantial pension than EmilyA, there could be a battle between the UK and France as to who is not going to pay for healthcare, given the pressures on budgets.

Given that possibility it is important to be sure of the regulations.

[idun]

That is exactly right for Emily. Even though she has a french pension, more contributions were paid in the UK and they pay when the UK pension started. Fastoche nez pah!

[cooperlola]

[quote user="AnOther"]Just to be clear what I meant:

It is my understanding that if you work in France, as it seems the OP may have to for health cover, then even when you reach retirement age and get your E121 you will pay 8% on your UK pension/income which you would not have done otherwise.

One of the hidden downsides of AE [:(]

[/quote]This has always bothered me, AnO, and this thread and the tangent it's taken rather reinforce this.  I think the regulation, if not ipso facto confusing (I rather take Norman's view when reading it) is certainly being interpreted differently by different bodies.  Thus I do believe that you could end up in a fix if you use AE to get healthcare but like so much of this stuff, there's no conistent evidence.  Emily appears to be in the majority - ie the UK seems willing to pay if you have paid more contributions there than in France, regardless of the fact that it would appear that that does not conform with the regulation as it is interpreted on that site (one really needs to look at the law itself to know for sure, though.)  Logically, the competent state should be the one which has taken the most money from you over the years (as per the regulation re somebody who has contributed to several.)  If not, what's to stop you going back to the UK to live for a brief while just before you reach retirement age, paying a voluntary stamp for a year or so, and making the UK your competent state, even if you might not have worked there for years? Idun knows for sure that that's not on!

It would be good to know for certain though, especially for those who want to use a business or job of any sort to get health cover.

[Sprogster]

I suppose the risk is that the UK could decide to crack down on issuing new S1's to UK retirees who have worked in another EU country prior to retiring there, if they cotton on to the fact that they could save money in the process.

Either way it is an area of uncertainty that needs to be taken into account by someone nearing State retirement age who is considering the AE route to French health care.

If you are in good health three or four years of private health insurance might be less hassle and cost than the AE route.