"The teachers don't make any allowance......"

[Teamedup]

I understand you completely Miki. I have no satisfaction in saying the things I say either. Not saying them would be no good as far as I am concerned, I'd feel bad about myself for keeping schtum.

And Cjb, your post left me quite emue.

[Richardbk]

"Some posters have already touched on this, but... it is a very different kettle of fish arriving in France with children who have reached school age than if one arrives with pre-schoolers."

All our kids were born here, they are totally fluent in French and are gradually going through the system in a variety of schools. Previously in Ile de france, now here in the middle of the tarn for a few years. In our experience the system is bad everywhere. lazy teachers, inflexibility, demotivation, verbal abuse  are the main words I would use to describe the french education system. For one of ours it has been hell from the first day, because she is more artistic and sportive than academic. The system provides poor results for even the French. Only the very best survive to take the few remaining jobs - you practically need a degree to be a checkout operator -  so for non speaking newcomers arriving into the system it must be hell at any age. 

regs

Richard

[Cjb]

The honeymoon period is well and truly over and perhaps a few sleepless nights have made me rather less patient, but it's now that I'm starting to view France as the country I live in and where I'll bring my daughter up rather than somewhere that isn't the UK.

Personally, I'd like my daughter to start off in the french system, at least for primary school, but my wife, who is french, won't abide by that. She's been through the system (and did well), but has no desire to put her own daughter through it if an alternative exists - in our case free education at an International School due to my job.

The more time I spend in France the more I feel that those that work for themselves or in the private system work bloody hard (in most cases) and those in the public sector are taking everyone else for a ride.

I spent years defending the public sector in the UK, but since moving here, I can't offer the same support. Dare I say it, it even makes me think that we were lucky to have Thatcher - at least in the short term). Allez Sarkozy!!

Despite all of this, we're still very happy here, it's just that our outlook has greatly changed.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Oh dear outcast is right,france is not for dreamers,hard headiest realism kicks in,the adults want to live in france and the kids have to come as well,dicky smith says that the schools in the UK have more money to call on because they have ethnic kids to teach(where does that money come from),I am sure there are people here who will tell a different story in france,the kids have no choose but to go where they are told,coming from a northern mill town where most kids are of ethnic decent and the local children suffer despite what D smith says,the french do not discriminate as they take religion out of schools

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Ps we live with a view of the med,here in 66.

[Teamedup]

Ah dear outcast, you sound like Gollum now all that was missing in that was 'my precioussssssssssss'. 

[Cjb]

I don't remember anyone saying that Outcast was right, to the extreme right, maybe, but right, surely not!!

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote]"Some posters have already touched on this, but... it is a very different kettle of fish arriving in France with children who have reached school age than if one arrives with pre-schoolers." ...[/quote]

"The system provides poor results for even the French"

But does it? After all, France remains as one of the biggest economies in the world with a diverse base including heavy industry, agriculture and commerce. Sure, the economy couldn't be described as "booming" but it is not collapsing either. I am starting to wonder to what extent the approach to education matters when it actually comes to preparing for the wonderful world of work.

I agree that the French system is harsh on the inmates (the kids coming back on the evening bus here look like they've undergone electric shock therapy at too high a voltage some days), but some people (they might describe themselves as "realists") might suggest that this is a better way to prepare for the "real" world (dog-eats-dog, winner takes all, lunch is for wimps, etc) than the Everyone's-a-Winner system currently in vogue in the UK. Mind you, that system can't be all bad either because the UK economy is still one of the largest, etc.

[Miki]

Ps we live with a view of the med,here in 66.I,m here in france

So you are Mrs Opas's other half then, so why did you change your name ? You never answered all the Q's but it doesn't really matter.

 

 

[Teamedup]

Jond, I firmly believe that if the french education system really worked as a universal concept for everyone in France, the french would rule the world.

Us old hands do say that the system is directed at those kids who fit in and are higher than average intelligence. And these kids do well, really well. So yes, that french business runs is not a surprise. So what would these creme de la creme  kids be like in a less restrictive atmosphere, I often wonder.

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

The French education system has suited the state perfectly until relatively recently; the fact that it produces a workforce which cannot easily be retrained is of serious concern to them as modern technology changes rapidly and an adaptable workforce is increasingly necessary.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I'm not sure that in these times of globalisation "adaptable" any longer has much currency. "Cheap" is rather more important. Nations like India (to their credit I would suggest) are turning out university graduates from an education system based on the UKs 40 years ago at a rate of a MILLION per year. I don't think they achieve this by being fluffy about how they teach either. Like the Chinese they are concentrating on science / technology based courses, and for some reason are avoiding degrees in media studies. The city of Bangalore, for example, is rapidly emerging as Asia's IT capital. How long before the computer giants start siting there? Well educated, adaptable and, above all, cheap workforce, readily available. I have a feeling that the next couple of decades are going to be quite exciting for us in the West. Maybe we've been fat, dumb and happy for a bit too long.

[SaligoBay]

<<Maybe we've been fat, dumb and happy for a bit too long.>>

Better make the most of it while we can then, before we suddenly turn thin, intelligent, and miserable.   

[Deby]

The more time I spend in France the more I feel that those that work for themselves or in the private system work bloody hard (in most cases) and those in the public sector are taking everyone else for a ride.

For me you've hit the nail on the head!

I'm not sure that in these times of globalisation "adaptable" any longer has much currency. "Cheap" is rather more important. Nations like India (to their credit I would suggest) are turning out university graduates from an education system based on the UKs 40 years ago at a rate of a MILLION per year.

And France certainly isnt cheap!  It does amaze me how restrictive the employment laws are, if only the Gov't made it easier and cheaper to employ people.

The French need to lose their functionnaire attitude, many French I know despair at this but they/we have to accept it is part of French life. I myself don't like it and it frustrates me, but its a trade off, no one lives in a perfect world.

Personally I walk a tightrope with my daughter's teacher, she is severe to say the least with children.  I think she thinks she makes allowances, which I suppose is a start, I think she doesnt.  I still have an issue with sending my daughter to school on Saturday mornings, even though she is Grande Section. I know if I don't she will be mean to my daughter, even though schooling is not obligatoire till CP. Before you all scream at me school here is not a la carte, I know it is me who has this issue and not my daughter, she is happy to go!  My daughter is happy with her schooling and we try and stimulate her in other areas and encourage her to think for herself.  At the end of the day she is happy and confident and I know I shouldnt expect more than that - for now!

Deby

[Val_2]

We arrived to the unknown in French education which was and still is a great mystery sometimes.We did not ask for or expect preferential help but it was given where it could be and we paid for some extra. No one who chooses to move to another country off their own back should expect assistance whether financial or eductional to be forthcoming without putting something back into the community. I get very peeved whenI read on other forums about french living how the french should cater specially for us brits and why should we speak french when they should speak more english,these are the people who as someone rightly said earlier,are hobby immigrees and not serious enough to integrate properly or else they would get off their backsides and live as the french do. The local Lycée teachers didn't even know my two were english until they spilt the beans which as one teacher put it, no wonder your daughter was a bit vague on french history.

[Richardbk]

[quote]"The system provides poor results for even the French"But does it? After all, France remains as one of the biggest economies in the world with a diverse base including heavy industry, agriculture and ...[/quote]

The french system works well for a a manufacturing type economy based on large industries where there is a need for fewer chiefs and many indians. It doesn't work well for an economy based on small reactive enterprises. An education system that provides more independent thinkers , more risk taking and more flexibility is required to enabled them to adapt to a changing global market. The french government knows it needs to restructure the system. The problem is that the current system is staffed with all those teachers and civil servants that came from the old system.

regs
Richard 

[Later]

I think our time is up.  China will be the manufacturing centre of the world and India the IT capital.  Russia is determined to reassert itself on the world stage.  Where does this leave us?  Overpriced, oversusbisided and overspent.  Most western countries are not facing up to the implications of all this.  And France in particular seems not to have grasped this.  As Dad's Army would have it, we're doomed!  It may not affect us, but it will have a profound effect upon our childrens' lives.  I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure that inflexible mindsets and an inability to adapt are not going to help us, British or French.  

Putting this into perpsective re the original post, this "we're doomed" scenario leaves me as worried as anything for my kids.  I expect the worst and will do everything I can to prepare them for the worst - and in the case of language support, I wouldn't expect the French school system to make allowances for my English children and I would fully expect to bolster their learning with additional teaching - probably paid for.  And if I couldn't afford it, then I'd explore creative solutions like bartering my time teaching English in exchange for someone else's time teaching my kids French. 

[Lollie]

[quote]Surely, it is the responsibility of all EU member states to provide support to those living and working within their borders. If not, what is the point in opening these borders?? Of course parental re...[/quote]

There is a government department set up to integrate non french speaking children into the education system> My children have benefitted from it.  A teacher came to their school for two hours each week and worked with then on a one to one basis, teaching them the grammaire.  This lasted for one year. 

Why should't they get help?  My husband works and pays his taxes in this country as do many other people>  It is not just the english that benefit from this programme, and I am sure it is reciprocated  throughout the modern world! in some way or other.  

[SaligoBay]

School is probably the biggest worry for us in France.  I was talking to a friend recently who used to teach in England, he said that the age group around 11 is a joy to teach, they're just desperate to learn, they're enthusiastic, they haven't learned major cynicism yet.   It's my feeling that French schools very successfully knock this enthusiasm out of them, and they're crushed just when they should be blossoming.

My son, at 10, is very nearly top of his class in 6ème, and is getting bored.   Unfortunately he's not the only one.   There's just no spark at all, no feeling of inspiration.    For the most part, it really is just learning learning learning, and I find it very sad to see my son already losing interest.   Last night's homework was to describe how you would get fresh water from salt water.  Will they actually do it in class?   Unlikely, to say the least!  It'll remain a piece of writing. 

Do you ever feel like you're on a treadmill?   Get up, go to work, come home, eat, go to bed, get up......... that is EXACTLY how many French children feel at 11, I've heard it quite a few times.

So John, you'll have to work out how you're going to fit extra teaching in, given that the college day (from age 11) is likely to be 8.30am to 5pm, then homework, then whatever social/sporting activities they do.    French collegiens are very tired little bunnies.   

[SaligoBay]

<<There is a government department set up to integrate non french speaking children into the education system> My children have benefitted from it.  A teacher came to their school for two hours each week and worked with then on a one to one basis, teaching them the grammaire.  This lasted for one year.>> 

I think you were very lucky, Lollie.   Your commune must have the money to spare, that's what it boils down to.   There are many other things that "should" be done but aren't universal - apparently they're all meant to learn to swim, but my son's been in France for 5 years and never been anywhere near a swimming pool with the school, nor have they ever been away on anything other than a day-trip from school.   What can you do?  We pay taxes in France too, but the local schools certainly don't benefit from them. 

[Later]

SaligoBay, yes that "only so many hours in the day" thing sort of gets in the way.

[Pucette<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Pucette<FONT><P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Qui ne connaît pas la campagne lhiver, ne connaît pas la campagne et ne connaît pas]

It's what the school holidays are mostly used for, shuttling the kids round parents' specialities so that they learn what they should have learned at school... those fortunate enough to have parents who consider it to be important that is. Later's method is popular round here, and some give a hand to sensible kids whose parents can't help too.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote]The french system works well for a a manufacturing type economy based on large industries where there is a need for fewer chiefs and many indians. It doesn't work well for an economy based on small re...[/quote]

Fair point, Richard. However, globalisation of any industry (manufacturing, banking, agriculture) is surely the preserve of the mega corps of the world? Every time one giant absorbs another we are promised greater efficiency and cheaper whatevers as result of their "enhanced buying power", "global reach" or "enlarged capital base". From that standpoint a system of education that produces a few very good chiefs and planty of adequate indians should be one that serves the needs of the global economy far better than one that producers lots of independent thinkers all pulling in different directions. If Total can merge with Elf and Fina (I know Fina was Belgian) to allow it to compete on the global stage, then how long is it before we see a Citroen / Peugeot / Renault combine? How many independent thinkers would that need to run it?

I agree that the French establishment could learn a thing or two about promoting small enterprises though. They have made progress, but it seems a bit patchy. Our dept (85) seems to be making real efforts to make things as easy as they can for business startups, but from what I hear this is not always the case elsewhere.

[Clarkkent]

I'm not sure that in these times of globalisation "adaptable" any longer has much currency. "Cheap" is rather more important. Nations like India (to their credit I would suggest) are turning out university graduates from an education system based on the UKs 40 years ago at a rate of a MILLION per year.

 

You appear to be impressed by this statistic. India’s population is now estimated at about 1000 million, Britain’s at 61 million. In 2002/3 Britain produced 282,000 graduates. Proportionally, Britain produces about 20 times as many graduates as does India. France’s output from the universities and Grandes Ecoles will greatly exceed India’s, too. India will need as many graduates as it can produce just to run itself.

 

I don't think they achieve this by being fluffy about how they teach either. Like the Chinese they are concentrating on science / technology based courses, and for some reason are avoiding degrees in media studies.

 

Interesting points being raised here. How important is a technology-based education? Most jobs/tasks for graduates are based in administration, and much high technology has a short half-life. It is not the role of the university to train people, but to provide them with the analytical and decision-making transferable skills which will make them managers at some time in the future. They can obtain these skills as readily in media studies as in chemistry or information technology.

 

Employers should train for job skills.

 

The city of Bangalore, for example, is rapidly emerging as Asia's IT capital. How long before the computer giants start siting there? Well educated, adaptable and, above all, cheap workforce, readily available.

 

You may be right, but I can’t help thinking that it is more likely to be the generation of marketable ideas and the ability to develop and capitalise on them, which is more important. My understanding (which may be wrong) is that India is producing high quality programmers. If Microsoft moves from Seattle it will be more likely to cross the border into Canada than move to India.

 

A few years ago, Jacques Nasser, then head of Ford, said that he envisioned his company as a

[Russethouse]

A little off topic but:

>>and for some reason are avoiding degrees in media studies. <<

Hmmm - I have to defend Media studies here, as my daughter worked hard for her degree, Media is one of the most useful when it comes to employment, I think there are stats that show that graduates in Media are among the least likely to be unemployed 6 months after graduating. As it happens my daughter has never been out of work. (Of course she is a lovely girl too ! )