RIGHT to school transport

[Fil]

Hi,

can anyone help me with this?

My son has been at college and the school bus has picked him up all that time from right outside our house (we live deep in the country with no streetlights in a hamlet of six houses and of course most of the year it is pitch dark at 7.15 am), and dropped him back there every evening at about 5.45pm.

He is going to Lycée in September and I decided in advance (the Lycée is in a different town, so different bus to catch) to go to the Mairie that deals with the transport scolaire and enquire about where he would be picked up and when.  I was on the alert because older son did a 6 month training course in a Lycée in the same town and had to be got every morning to a stop some distance from the house.  For six months punctuated with three stages and sometimes using his motorbike as well, this was not too bad, but I did NOT want to be letting myself in for three years minimum of doing the same!!

So I wrote a letter to the Mairie, after they had said blithely that I would have to get him to the nearest stop myself, or he would have to walk.  In this I pointed out that the nearest bus stop is 2.8 kilometres away along narrow country lanes with no houses, no lights etc, and that he would need to be at the stop for 7am every morning!

 Our insurance man had told us (when I was sorting out insurance for his moped) that he had looked after the transport scolaire in another commune, and that if a pupil lives more than 500 metres from a bus stop, then the bus company are obliged to come and get them.  And he lives much further from the stop than that, obviously.

Having not received any answer at all from the Mairie in question, I went in the other day and received a semi apology but was told that no, he had to get to the nearest stop.  Sigh.  So now the Secretaire has given me an appointment with someone (not sure just who) who deals with it, for Tuesday morning.

Before I go I am anxious to be more clear on the rights of my son.  He lives within the 'catchment area' of the school in question, but after a public college we have opted for a private Lycée because he really wants to do Arts Plastiques so that he can go onto Computer Animation and only the Privé offered this.  Does this affect his rights in any way as to the transport?

As he redoubled quatrieme he is now 16 years old, and I want to know if his age would have any bearing on his rights?

Is there a set distance that pupils homes must accord with for the bus to deviate to collect them? (A french friend who works in a college is not sure if the 500 metres applies just to collegiens or to Lycéens too).

I would really liked to be armed with my rights (and his) when I meet this bureaucrat on Tuesday morning at 9am, as I am quite prepared to argue my corner, and more than capable of doing so in French.  I do find that arguing in french is my forté lately!  But I want to know that I am standing on firm ground.

Obviously, I COULD get up and drive him to the bus EVERY morning for the next three years, and be waiting to pick him up EVERY evening, and Wednesday afternoon, BUT what if the car won't start?  What if we have a crisis with one of our animals?  There are endless ifs.  And what if we want a few days away in term time?  We run gites so holidays are out in proper holiday periods, and up to now we have been able to leave the house, animals etc in the capable of hands of both of our sons.  But not if we have to keep to a strict bus timetable.

I find that the trouble with french bureaucrats is that if they do not know the answer to something, or no-one has ever done it before, they just say 'no' anyway.  And I have read an interesting article saying that as they have relatively unimportant jobs (often the result of job creation binges) they like to pretend they are important by exercsing their authority and saying 'no' whenever they can.  I have encountered all this before, and the trouble is, when you do not know the system inside out as it is a foreign one, you can never be sure if the answer you get is true or not.  Unless it is in the affirmative.

So I would like the benefit of the advice of ANYONE who has had to cope with the bureaucracy of the Transport Scolaire system and could give me a few words of wisdom.

Incidentally I had a run in with his Directrice of the College he was at.  Very amusing.  I got the better of her for sure and she was convinced she could outsmart me.

Answers appreciated ASAP before Tuesday,

 

Fil

[Lori]

Not sure how the law reads as far as how far a child lives from the closest bus stop, but here, in our village of 3300 people, a new large bus stop was created in the village.  All children from this village are expected to take the bus from that stop and be returned to that stop at the end of the day.  It is quite large and can accommodate several buses at one time and also many parent's cars (waiting for the bus to arrive/depart with their children safely aboard).  There are other nearby villages - 3 or 4 kms away who have their own stops too.

Our daughter will begin college in September and I have resigned myself that I will be up taking her to the bus stop (2 kms from house) each morning and picking her up each evening.  This isn't free either, though the cost is a minimal 140 Euros for the year.  I just chalk this up to having children.  I have always gotten up to take our daughter (and two neighbor's kids whose parents both work) to school every day.  It just seems the way it is...

Probably not the answer you were looking for.

[Fil]

Hi,

thanks for that, but what department are you in?

It must vary I think, according to area, as James has always been picked up at home (only child at that particular stop) and the bus does a very circuitous route to get other isolated children from their homes.  There is indeed a big stop in our village (centre of the commune but only a commune of about 800 in total) and quite a few get on there, but no way is everybody expected to deliver their college age children to one stop. 

We have a little minibus that does the rounds of the hamlets for primary children which our youngest child could take, but at only four I think he is too young yet, and besides, the particular driver is a bit of a speed freak and we would rather not commit our baby to his care just yet!  I live in hopes of him changing before we put Jacob on the bus!

So you see, everyone in our area is used to having their children collected.  James would be at either stop offered with several others, and then another big stop in the next commune.  However, it would be the work of a few extra minutes for the bus to come to him first before the others. 

I need someone else in the Morbihan to answer this I think!

Fil

[Teamedup]

From college age it is usually the Conseil General that deals with transport scolaire. So maybe you should contact them rather than your Mairie. 

Obligitory schooling ends at the age of 16 and the conseil general rules could well reflect this. In their budget they have to provide transport for those who have to legally attend school. How they deal with lyceens may not be as generous as you have found so far. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if it were not down to you to sort this out yourself. I'm pretty sure that the lyceens from the hamlets above our village have to get themselves down for the very early bus. Mountains roads and up to about 6kms away.

You never know the conseil general may have a bourse you could have, you'll have to ask them.

[Val_2]

My son has to take the bus to Lycée every morning at 7am,this bus is the ordinary public bus that commutes between the two towns of a distance of about 25miles. All those students at the public Lycée in town are obliged to make their own way to the stops no matter what the distance is,the parents find it easier to drop the local kids right in the village here. There is no special out of the way drop off scheme by the bus companies for those of Lycée age here and we do not assist financially the transport for any student who takes up private education,this is always firmly rejected by the elus. The Lycée we have used for the past five years is over 12miles from here and the cost is extremely cheap, three months is equivalent to one week's worth of my petrol going twice a day. If you have a problem then you must take it up with the Transport Scolaire bureau who issue the bus passes or the Conseil Generale but don't hold your breath as France considers it's students to make their own way and not be nanny-ed. The same applies to exams for the BAC that are held upto 40miles away, its upto the parents to get the child there and back,not the Lycée. If there is a bourse available, you will have to furnish the previous year's tax return form to the authorities to work out the award but two salary households are usually not taken into consideration.

[Miki]

Have to agree with Val & Tu,

Once daughter left collège to go on to Lycée, one was left to find the best way to get them to school. For the first few months, we even had to pay almost full price less a small weekly discount until our village joined the Cars 35 "scheme" thereby 7 other local kids also qualified to get a cheap weekly return at the same rates as some of the other communes in the canton. She then bought 10 tickets on Monday mornings from the bus driver, representing 5 returns at a cost of 15 euros per week but as Val stated, it is far cheaper than taking her all the way to Saint Malo and back every day, morning and night. We only had to take her 3 km's to the bus stop to catch the bus at 06h50 (not school bus) and again at night.

This year she is back to Dinan and that will be tricky, as it is in the 22 and we live 10 metres inside the 35 dept !! Time for calls again to the different bus company which make that journey to see how much etc !!

Don't mention the Bac again Val, thank goodness that's well over with ! 3 hours sitting in bars and cafés until she had taken the requisite exam !! And not being able to drink, due to the drive back home !

[Fil]

Er,

do none of you lot out there have lives of your own?  Or do none of the french either?  Are you trying to tell me that all french parents of kids of Lycée age are totally slaves to the school bus and getting their kids to and from it on time?

What about single parents? 

What about people who work shifts?

This cannot be true and I refuse to believe it.

I for one am not about to take this lying down.  I never take anything lying down, I can tell you, and am prepared to battle to the furthest limit possible.  There is no way anyone can convince me that school children should be expected to be able to get themselves 3 k to a bus stop in the dark with no street lights.  We do live in the 21st century you know, not the 18th.  This is the modern world.  What about parents with only one car for crying out loud, or even, heaven forbid, no car at all?

I await with trepidation the replies to this!!!!

Fil

[Teamedup]

Fil,

 

Your 'indignant' reply is quite funny really.

 

You have had some good advice, which you will take or leave.

 

So who's responsibility is it to sort out things for your child whom you have decided to keep on at school. The CAF already give you extra money as your child gets older too. And there is a slightly better tax relief if I remember correctly.

 

French people get on with it and sort themselves out. Either themselves or with their neighbours. This might make you realise why so many people take the 'interne' option, you only have transport problems on a Monday and Friday.

 

 

Let us know what your conseil general say, I'm sure that it is they and not the Mairie who will deal with this, unless this is a little different in Bretagne.

[SaligoBay]

Yes, Fil, you may well have to just get on with it.   For one thing, every department will be different, depending on subventions, local economic history, and so on.

Here we pay 96 euros a term for the bus to collège, and it's not even a very good service!.   Over the border in Gard, many places provide transport scolaire for free, irrespective of distance.  What can we do?  In reality, not a lot!

Good luck in your fight.  You never know, you may be the first person to ever question the local system.  It may give them such a shock, you might get what you want.

 

[BJSLIV]

I always assumed that the need to get around independantly in rural France was the reason that teenagers took to underpowered motor bikes at such an early age.

An alternative approach could be weekly boarding.

 

 

[Val_2]

Some of the Lycéens on the outskirts of our commune make up a group of about five and one parent takes it in turn every few weeks to either drop them off to take the car or in the case of those who work in the town,takes them all the way, works very well. Perhaps you could find other parents prepared to share in this way otherwise it is your problem and not the state to get your child to education every day. This is another reason why there are so many young drivers on the road so they can get themselves to school, my daughter included although she lives 60miles from us during the week. Walking long distances in the dark first thing and in the evening means nothing here in Brittany,people have always done it - its not the nanny state of taking your kids 500 yards to school by car twice a day like the UK has now.

[Hoddy]

“Walking long distances in the dark first thing and in the evening means nothing here in Brittany,people have always done it - its not the nanny state of taking your kids 500 yards to school by car twice a day like the UK has now.”

Once again a problem described as France versus the UK seems to me to be a problem of country versus town so I don't think wht you say is quite fair.

There are parts of the UK where children have great difficulty in getting to school. Yes, a school bus is usually provided, but one has to get to the bus. In my own family, where the only vehicle was the one which my nephew used for his work, his son aged eleven had to walk or cycle a mile and a half to the nearest road, then negotiate an A road with no footpaths for another mile before getting to the junction where the bus stopped.  If he missed the bus home it caused something of a crisis. It also meant that he was unable to participate in the many excellent after school activities provided by the school.

Eventually because it simply proved too much they moved house.

I hope you have better luck Fil and are to establish a precedent in your area.

Hoddy

[Teamedup]

Precident, the trouble is, who is going to pay for a private taxi service for someone who has stayed on at school. Would anyone be suggesting this if this lad was going out to work....... that the the local authorities would have to provide special transport for him. I don't think so.

And let's face it we who come here chose where we want to live. It isn't as if we are 'old' families going back generations. We make our choices and surely have to assume our responsibilites too.

As I said and BJSLV said, it is no wonder so many over 16 year olds end up being on internat, boarding obviously suits lots of families.

[Fil]

Hi,

thanks everyone for your replies.

Teamed Up - glad I gave you a laugh.  Funny - I always have a good one reading your contributions too.

Saligo Bay - you may well be right.  I have found that the people over here are inclined to accept things without questioning them, rather sheep like.  Thanks for the good wishes - maybe I'll be off to the Conseil General next, you never know.

BJSLIV - yes, and have you seen the statistics on accidents on them?  He does actually have a moto, but I worry every time he uses it, and there is certainly nowhere secure for him to leave it at the bus stops in question.  And if he did ride it in bad weather he would hardly be in a state to spend the day leerning, would he?  And as for boarding, he suffers from a condition that would make that very difficult for him - he has Asperger's Syndrome - monstrously high IQ but very introverted and insecure in strange out of the ordinary situations, meaning he is best off living at home and commuting to school.

Any other ideas appreciated and thanks again to all, especially to that noted wit TU.

Fil

[Teamedup]

Please tell us why you didn't mention aspergers before. IF you can get him registered as handicapped then you would get some help with this and you might just because of this anyway.

It shouldn't be confused with what you should expect usually though. At this age up to three kms from the bus stop is quite acceptable AND some kids round here at least can have three different buses to catch to get to their lycees, the most mine had was two buses. It is the price we make our kids pay for living en campagne.

 

At the end of the days this really is quite different to a kid without a specific problem needing transport.

[Fil]

Hi,

thanks for the advice, but you do not seem to appreciate just what asperger's is.  It is NOT a handicap and there is no way I would consider him handicapped.  All symptoms an asperger's child displays are quite normal when found individually in anyone else - it is the fact that they all occur in one person that distinguishes them as symptoms of Asperger's.

And although he does have a medical diagnosis I think it would probably have no bearing on his school transport situation.  He copes incredibly well with his little problem and does not need any treatment for it.  Incidentally, it was diagnosed over here and not in the UK which is interesting, I feel, as he was seen by a child psychologist in the UK when at Prep school and it was totally missed as a possibility.  I have been very impressed with the way it has been dealt with here, and will be dealt with at his new Lycée.

I have been to see the Mairie this morning and spoken with the Maire, who, after all, must be remembered to be an elected official.  Having spoken yesterday by telephone to the Ministry of Education here, who told me it is an individual thing between bus company and Conseil Generale, and having phoned the bus company on their advice, I was then told by the Maire that it had nothing to do with the bus company and that I must write to the Conseil Generale!  So who is telling the truth, if anyone, in this case?  I told you that everyone says no if they actually just don't know, didn't I?  Well it is SO true.

So armed with a map of the bus route given to me by the Maire, who was very nice to me but obviously did not really know - or was it the Ministry of Education that did not know? - I shall now write to the Conseil Generale and see what happens.  Though no doubt the relevant person is on his annual summer holiday!!!!!

Fil

[Miki]

".... I have found that the people over here are inclined to accept things without questioning them, rather sheep like. Thanks for the good wishes - maybe I'll be off to the Conseil General next, you never know."

Must be why we have so many greves here then

We have known people in the past whose kids have had other handicaps that have meant they were taxied in but as you say, your son is not handicapped in the way these others were. Which may make a great difference to whether or not you can get the help required. You have to remember, hundreds of thousands of us would like our kids taken to the bus stop (OK in most of our cases, it would be purely for selfish reasons)but there are some we know, who thought they had excellent cases that were dismissed us "the family's problem"

Kick up enough fuss and you never know in this country but never think that all French are like sheep, (although in school life, they sure can be) I have witnessed some truly rip roaring rucks in governement depts, jolly good they were, who won the rows? I don't know but you have a fighting chance, perhaps!!

[Richardbk]

I was then told by the Maire that it had nothing to do with the bus company and that I must write to the Conseil Generale!  So who is telling the truth, if anyone, in this case?  I told you that everyone says no if they actually just don't know, didn't I?  Well it is SO true.

As mentioned before by TU it is indeed the Conseil Generale that make the rules - the bus company simply follows them and the Mairie, well they just get in the way. Seriously though the Mairie could make a representation on your behalf, but it seems that in your case they have not been much help.

 It would probably be best to see the Conseil Generale in person, rather than write a letter. Going back to a remark in one of your earlier posts - do not go in present a list of demands and then argue. This will lead to the back-against-the-wall-syndrome and will almost certainly result in a 'no'. Functionnaires need to be coaxed and feel loved. You need to be nice and apologetic as if it is all a big mix up and its really your own fault, but that it is causing real hardship. Try to add in a few facts like no street lamps, road accidents or whatever you can come up with and that even you could propose to pay extra if they give you a derogation. If you make it into a battle then you won't win, at least the first round and going to the next level will take months to sort out.

regs

Richard

[Teamedup]

Well I was telling the truth. I said contact the Conseil General and that is the only place I would have contacted.

I know exactly what Aspergers is. We have had so many problems with our youngest that it was yet another thing that we took into consideration. High IQ etc etc.  I also know how it can vary from child to child.

I think that you might find this black and white in France.......... as..............

 EITHER he is capable of getting to the bus at 16 years old like every other kid, because 16 years old he is  old enough to go out to work and get to a bus stop under three kms from the house, or canny enough to chat you up to take him

OR he isn't because of his Aspergers.

 

If you don't think that he is capable, then you may well have to play the aspergers card. I most certainly would. I've done that nagging feeling in my gut that says that this isn't right and he won't manage. Is that why you said 'RIGHT to school transport' because deep down you feel like you need more than on offer.

 

Have you contacted the french aspergers association?  If you haven't here are a couple of links. There is a message board and one to the association who can give you  help with juridique problems like this one. Why don't you ask them what his rights are.

 

 

 

http://www.aspergeraide.com

 

http://www.casediscute.com/2004/039_autisme/forum_liste.html

[Richardbk]

BTW I forgot to add that there is national regulation in terms of school transport, other than safety and equipment etc. Everything is set up at department level by the Conseil General. It is up to them to decide what will and will not be provided. For example In cases where no transport is provided the  minimum distance between your house and the school before you get travel allowance (bourse) can be anything from ~10 to ~2 kilometres.

For handicapped children that can not or do not have access to transport  you can claim for reimbursement of costs.

regs

Richard

[Miki]

"....If you make it into a battle then you won't win, at least the first round and going to the next level will take months to sort out"

Sorry cannot entirely agree with that. We have had to fight tooth and nail a few times with fonctionnaires (who hasn't !!) over several years on one matter or another. Half the time if you let them, they will run all over you and one needs to put them straight on a few things.

They will never admit being wrong and often one has to prove them wrong. I give up on the number of times we were given duff info but believed as they were the "people" who would know, simply slunk away.

Experience then taught us that half the time they were simply guessing, just because they did not know the correct answer but could not be seen not to know it, so offered one anyway, which inevitably at times, was totally wrong.

Yes, on some occasions we have sussed that it would be best to string the person along as we knew we had been wrong and needed to do a bit of ego caressing and that has played dividends sometimes.

So all in all, I have found it far better to take each situation as it happens, if you believe you are right, you will need to prove it to them if they just say "Non" which to them means "walk away please" and if they still don't accept your beliefs, then go in to one !

[opas]

back to school this week, so how did the orriginal poster get on with the transport problem?

mrs O