It makes me mad

[Val_2]

When they employ so called "english" teachers here in France who havn't got a clue to the english language. My son got sent out of class yesterday,he's almost 19,for correcting the english teacher who did his training in America. My son's crime was that he corrected this person for saying that the word chips was wrong and that the correct term was french fries. My son said "got to england and see how many outlets have french fries and chips written outside",the correct term is chips,chips in France mean crisps. Its not the first time this teacher has made mistakes in marking of english grammar either,both myself and a neighbour who teaches english here have remarked on his errors. Why don't they employ properly qualified english teachers and not american-english? I am seriously thinking of writing or visiting the principal to complain about this if he continues to put my son down when he does the correct homework.

[Blanche Neige]

Val

You have my sympathies.

Maybe you could tell the teacher about our great English tradition of "Fish and Chips"  now whoever heard of Fish and French fries.[:^)] Has this teacher never been to England and seen a Fish and Chip shop?

(edit)

Perhaps you could give the teacher a French / English dictionary for Christmas!

I have just looked in my  (Collins Robert)  dictionary and the example given is "Frite -s  = chips (Brit),  French fries (surtout US)"

I suppose a 19 year old would probably take delight in pointing out that the teacher was misinformed and perhaps that didn't help matters.

Gill

 

 

 

[Wendy]

Good luck! I have just attended my son's 'parent - teacher' evening and for the second year he has been placed at the bottom of the class in English. And, also, for the second year in a row, 'Madam Anglaise' did not turn up for the parents to speak to at this event. It seems to me that the French are very touchy about their ability to teach English Grammar. 

 

[Tresco]

I have just looked in my  (Collins Robert)  dictionary and the example given is "Frite -s  = chips (Brit),  French fries (surtout US)"

I suppose a 19 year old would probably take delight in pointing out that the teacher was misinformed and perhaps that didn't help matters.

I think Gill may have touched on something here.

Let's face it, us Brits know there is a massive difference between 'french fries' and 'chips', but I would not really expect a teacher of English in France, who was trained in America, to know the qualitative difference between them.  I suspect that most French children (and their teachers) familiarity with 'english' is gained from USA sources, rather than British.

My young Swedish relatives (much younger than 19) have been through similar things to Val2 with their English Language  teachers. Very skilled teachers can handle this kind of  'flak' in the classroom as it happens, but those that see it as a threat can't, and a different way of dealing with it needs to be sought out.

[Miki]

I think you will find that some teachers (or others ?) to be, are taught

American English in the Uni's here out of choice. Our

friends daughter (French) went to Bordeaux to learn her American

English.

Our son was reprimanded by his English teacher in his early schooling

here,  for not knowing what two's were. After the teacher trying

once again to make him tell her (and the class), he  asked her as

to what exactly two's were and was told sarcastically, that they were

the things on the end of his feet.

He quite correctly told the teacher that it was "toes" and not

pronounced as she had done and was told not to correct her

pronunciation !

[Monika]

I have been teaching German although my mother tongue is Swiss German. We use different words in our languages and I must admit that I get slightly upset when Germans correct me. Some words in German just sound too haughty and I want to stick up for my nationality and use the Swiss German equivalent.

It must be difficult for the English teachers in France to teach the english children and be corrected by them. I have been in England for 35 years, have a a Proficiency and I still make mistakes, never mind the accent! Watching a lot of American films on Telly does not help either.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I can appreciate how difficult it is for British

origin pupils in French schools to have to deal with differences in taught

"English" and their native spoken language, particularly when a

teacher chooses to make an issue of it.

Pragmatically, however, us English English speakers, whatever we may think

about American English (I confess I find it both coarse and uncouth, but then I

speak RP English, plus I'm a bloody snob), have to accept the fact that it is

the dominant dialect, and, therefore, logically the one that should be taught. as

being the norm. After all, English English has hardly been pushed by Britain in

recent years. The British Council is poorly funded, there is no real equivalent

to the Académie Français to "vet" additions to the language (and

would we want one?), and every textbook that I come across for teaching either

a foreign language to English speakers or English as a foreign language seems

to be American.

 When the day comes that our offspring commence formal

English lessons we shall simply have to explain that they should forget

everything that they have learned at our knees (which we paint black and write

on with chalk) and accept that their teacher is simply correct within the

confines of the school walls. Come to think of it, that’s not bad advice for

education in general.

[Russethouse]

English English is the basis of American English, stand up for your native language ![:D]

[Pangur]

[quote user="Val_2"]Why don't they employ properly qualified english teachers and not american-english? .[/quote] Because American English is as valid as British English.  It unreasonable to suggest that American English teachers are wrong - it's just not what you're used to.  International companies often use American English as the default language, so it's definitely important to learn, or at least be able to recognise the differences.  For example,  I often have to "translate" documents from US to British English and back again.  And the spelling must be a lot easier for students!

Why not ask the Head to suggest that a class be devoted to the different types of English in use, as it's important to recognise both as valid and it is definitely unfair that your son, or others who have learnt British English, are penalised for using it, without there being a clear policy on which form of English is used.  Sounds like the teacher could do with a class in it too!

What do they do for state exams as a matter of interest - are both accepted?

[RayB]

-- English English is the basis of American English, stand up for your native language !--

Hi Gay -

You probably figured I'd show-up on this one sooner or later. (g)

Some things to consider:

The purpose of any language is to be able to communicate with others in the same language.

English taught in French schools is for French students . . not British or Americans. The French get to make the choice.

To try to teach both 'versions' would never work. Either one can communicate with the other . . . usually.

I speak both. That's cool, innit? (g)

[chicfille]

I agree that an English teacher should not rule out any Americanisms or Britishisms as "wrong", but what irritates is the number of teachers that don't accept, or know, that there are differences!

For the record, my daughters aren't allowed to attend English lessons at their primary school, because the teacher isn't much good at English, so I have heard! Goodness knows what she is teaching the others.

On a slightly different point, as a translator I am sometimes asked to translate texts into "international English". What is this? I can't accept that it is American English, because there is no reason why that should be more international than British English. And the fact is, that neither is wrong, and are for the most part mutually comprehensible, which is the point of language, is it not?

[Champagnac]

And the bizarre thing is that UK-trained, qualified and experienced English teachers are, unless the regulations have changed recently, not acceptable to the French authorities as teachers !

Also, we have a French friend who obtained an English degree in France, a PGCE teaching qualification in England and taught English in Secondary schools in the UK to GCSE level. She speaks impeccable English with the slightest (if you KNOW to listen for it) hint of an accent.

 

On her return to France she was not deemed qualified to teach English.  Is it any wonder the teaching is a little suspect ?

 

Roy

[RayB]

-- I am sometimes asked to translate texts into "international English". What is this?--

This will confuse you even more -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_English/archive

[RayB]

[quote user="Val_2"]When they employ so called "english" teachers here in France who havn't got a clue to the english language. My son got sent out of class yesterday,he's almost 19,for correcting the english teacher who did his training in America. My son's crime was that he corrected this person for saying that the word chips was wrong and that the correct term was french fries. My son said "got to england and see how many outlets have french fries and chips written outside",the correct term is chips,chips in France mean crisps. Its not the first time this teacher has made mistakes in marking of english grammar either,both myself and a neighbour who teaches english here have remarked on his errors. Why don't they employ properly qualified english teachers and not american-english? I am seriously thinking of writing or visiting the principal to complain about this if he continues to put my son down when he does the correct homework.[/quote]

Treat it as a foriegn language and pass the course would be my advice to my child. Chips versus fries is irrelevant.

[RayB]

[quote user="Champagnac"]

And the bizarre thing is that UK-trained, qualified and experienced English teachers are, unless the regulations have changed recently, not acceptable to the French authorities as teachers !

Also, we have a French friend who obtained an English degree in France, a PGCE teaching qualification in England and taught English in Secondary schools in the UK to GCSE level. She speaks impeccable English with the slightest (if you KNOW to listen for it) hint of an accent.

 

There HAS to be more to that story, Roy.

[/quote]

On her return to France she was not deemed qualified to teach English.  Is it any wonder the teaching is a little suspect ?

 

Roy

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Russethouse"]English English is the basis of American English, stand up for your native language ![:D][/quote]

[:D] I would if I could, but on what  possible basis could I pretend that

it is a better version of the mother tongue?! I have enough trouble chez nous

trying to get the children to pronouce "bath" with the invisible "r" in

which they steadfastly refuse to believe. No, I'm perfectly happy

for most of the rest of the World to learn a stripped-down, low-brow

version

of English with a silly accent. I shall increase my rarity value.

Seriously, the huge plus point of English in any version is its utility

and flexibility. While I am somewhat maudlin ([U]) that the version I

have been brought up to speak is being overtaken by another, I accept

that this is simply a charateristic that makes the language valuble in

the first place. French, by comparison, has had a tendency to mire

itself in its former glory, and, as a result, has declined in importance. Maybe we should be more worried about saving that...

[Teamedup]

Champagnac, but those who teach in France have to pass functionnaires exams to do it. AND your friend should have known that.

[Pangur]

[quote user="Champagnac"]

And the bizarre thing is that UK-trained, qualified and experienced English teachers are, unless the regulations have changed recently, not acceptable to the French authorities as teachers !

Also, we have a French friend who obtained an English degree in France, a PGCE teaching qualification in England and taught English in Secondary schools in the UK to GCSE level. She speaks impeccable English with the slightest (if you KNOW to listen for it) hint of an accent.On her return to France she was not deemed qualified to teach English.  Is it any wonder the teaching is a little suspect ?

[/quote]

Hardly bizarre - a French -trained teacher cannot necessarily  waltze into a permanent French teaching post in a UK school without Qualified Teacher Status, which generally means extra assessment.  I'm sure it is the same in every EU state.  Degrees and experience are not necessarily equivalent in each country.  Teaching ethos and approaches are extremely different across EU states and it's not surprising that a little extra training is needed.   I would assume with the employment figures the way they are in France, it would be a lot easier for a school to hire a teacher trained in the same country rather than wait for them to pass assessments. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mistral]

Just to answer two questions;

-In national exams, candidates are allowed to use British or American English. The only limitation is that they stick to one or the other and don't walz between the two. So you can't talk about fries and then mention you're wearing trainers.

- French teachers are civil servants. They have to take competetive  civil service exams. This is why a teacher who has trained in another European country can not work immediately in the state system in France. But he could find a job either as a supply teacher in a state school or in a private school. All EU nationals have the right to take the civil service exam if they want to.

[Champagnac]

Thank youTeamedup and Pangur, I am duly chastised.

[quote user="Teamedup"]Champagnac, but those who teach in France have to pass functionnaires exams to do it. AND your friend should have known that.[/quote]

 

Actually, I should have made myself clearer, she DID know the situation, it was ME who found it strange.

[quote user="Pangur"] Hardly bizarre - a French -trained teacher cannot necessarily  waltze into a permanent French teaching post in a UK school without Qualified Teacher Status, which generally means extra assessment.  I'm sure it is the same in every EU state.  Degrees and experience are not necessarily equivalent in each country.  [/quote]

Actually I believe a French national with a degree from France CAN walk into a UK school to teach FRENCH, albeit with the recommendation of some "on-site" training (To allow for all the other things that Pangur mentions).  I am STILL disappointed that no system is flexible enough to see the advantage of someone qualified in the langauge, qualified to teach the language and with experience teaching it would not be welcomed - in any country.

[Tresco]

If there were loads of  fish'n'chip shops here, every teacher would use 'chips', but there aren't : there are plenty of Mc Do's selling 'french fries' (frites) though.

[Teamedup]

Chastising? non, just pointing out how things are. And I agree the acceptable in France to the french often seems very strange and unusual to me too.

[Anton Redman]

As far as I am concerned AmerEnglish is another language. I am very glad Benjamin Franklin simplified the spelling of English sufficiently for it to be adopted as the language of the USA.  The vote on German versus English was very close.

I have no trouble with Sox or Nite. I also have no trouble with Nonante and Huitante in Canadian or Francophone African usage provided I am dealing with people who expected them.

However I also grew up in a culture where the teacher was right especially when he or she was wrong. Just smile say you are sorry and realise most of those in authority are to quote Jethro Tull are 'Thick as a Brick'  My fallback is to ask them why 'Purple and Black', would be a better translation than 'Scarlet and Black' which is a better translation than 'Red and Black'  

I once wasted a significant part of my life pointing out that we, all main stream European languages, wrote numbers from right to left to somebody who could write both Farsi and Hebrew.

 

[Russethouse]

I suppose it would help if we knew more about the context of the comment because AFAIK all French Fries are chips but all chips are most certainly not French fries....or am I going mad ?[*-)]

[KathyC]

Perhaps you could make the comparison to the French teacher with the Canadian or African versions of French. As the French feel so strongly about the purity of their language, they might at least understand the point you're making.