Unpaid UK road tax

[learnedmylesson]

I hope someone can advise.

My husband brought his car to France when he moved here permanently in 98 and didn't change to French plates. At the time it was still possible to insure UK cars with French insurance agents, and he was under the (mistaken) impression that as long as he put the car through the CT regularly, being a French resident he didn't have to pay UK road tax.

He continued in this way until 2003 when the car broke down and he stopped using it, at which point he suspended his insurance policy until the car could be repaired. It has taken until now to repair the car, and we are now trying to get it legally back on the road. However, in the interim, the insurance agent has cancelled the policy, and won't reinsure the car until it is reregistered with French plates.

The problem is that he hasn't paid road tax now since 2000... The second problem is that apparently from 01/07/05 we need to surrender a new type of logbook (a V5C?) to the prefecture, and this is only available from the DVLA.... Who will then nobble us for the 5 year tax liability.

The car is definitely not worth paying a 5 year tax bill on, but we don't know what else to do about it.

Any suggestions would be gratefully received!

[Motorhead]

This is not another "told you so" post but small savings can often lead to big bills later on.

You could try arguing with DVLA that you wanted to tax the car but were unable to do so because of the French insurance and CT.

Who said that you need a new V5c? Was it the prefecture? They sound remarkably clued up on the new UK regs to me. You could try presenting the old V5 to another, not so clued up prefecture but then you would have to arrange another temporary address for this.

[Teamedup]

I reckons that your vehicule's legality has been dubious since either 1998 or 1999. When we become permanent residents we are supposed to transfer our vehicule into the french system, Officially we have a matter of months, which is better than french people who have only weeks to do this when they move.

Also you would have had two or three years when you should have been paying french road tax too.

I can't see how you can argue anything with anybody. What can you say?

The insurer has taken your money, but if you had had an accident, then they may well have had a get out clause and it is probably best that they want you 'legal' now.

 

Your unpaid road tax could have fines built in. Sounds like you are in the caca and I'm wondering what others will say.

[Will]

Although I personally sympathise with your plight, the story does indeed highlight the need to do things properly, i.e. pre-July 2005 get an export certificate from DVLA when exporting any vehicles, or post-July 2005 properly notify export using the V5C. People still post in forums like this one to say you don't need to do these things, or that you don't really need to re-register a vehicle within six months of arriving. Your situation provides proof that you do.

If you read http://www.dvla.gov.uk/newrules/hrc_new.htm it does look as if you might be able to get a V5C if you tell DVLA that the vehicle was under repair. Strictly speaking you should have covered this with a SORN, although this is highly debatable as the vehicle had already been 'exported'. DVLA may be sympathetic but there is, as you say, always the chance that you could be asked to pay the unpaid road tax. We wish you luck anyway.

[Miki]

Sorry Bill but I have to disagree with your sentiments on this. I have seen this kind of scenario all too often and heard hundreds of different chinese whispers on this kind of subject and all are slanted towards saving money and therefore folks prefer to believe in whatever saves them money, rather than take the legal course, which of course costs more money.

How ever did your Husband have a mistaken impresssion for 5 years ! It was a bit rich of him to expect not to pay tax in the UK as well as not paying car tax here as well for a few years. Did he really not realise he was acting illegally for 5 years, that would beggar belief to be honest. Unless you live out in the back of beyond in complete isolation, I am almost positive that someone, especially another Brit, would have told you that it was totally illegal what he was doing. A simple word at any (sous)prefecture would have put you straight.

One has always been able to insure a UK car with French insurers, even today but, the more honest or perhaps, alert is a better word, "broker" will tell you to make sure it is on French plates within 3 months (or is it 6 these days ?

You say you are legally trying to get it back on the road, how do you plan to do that ?

".....However, in the interim, the insurance agent has cancelled the policy, and won't reinsure the car until it is reregistered with French plates."

Looks like the lazy French broker has finally read up on the regulations then !

[Iceni]

Will - should this thread be added to the FAQ section as a classic "how not to" ?

Helen - you/yr husband chose to ignore the rules that apply to the rest of us and may have been caught. Suggest that you dispose of the body, keep yr head down and most importantly keep schtum.

BTW ignorance is no excuse for not knowing.

John

not

[opas]

the new form (log book) would automaticaly have been sent out to the address where the car is registered. I take it that you havn`t been having your post redirected for 5 years, so, it will have gone to your  old address in the UK, where if the present owner is fed up of receiving outdated post for other people, they will have , 1) sent it back to sender ,2) filled it under B for bin!

Wasn`t there a thread on here a few months ago , where someone had similar circumstances...perhaps someone with more patience than I will be able to find that thread.....do not think we got the end result.

Just an aside, why have you suddenly had the urge to register with a website about France? surely as others have said you must have realised that what you have done all these years is wrong.

3 months is still the current timespan given by French insurers for rereg of a brit plated car(well it is with Groupama here in 66 anyway......and it doesn`t even take that long when you get your act together)

Mrs O

[Will]

Miki, I think there are two ways of looking at this. Under both ways, what the original questioner has done is illegal - I think we are agreed on that. I was looking at it from the point of view that they have managed, luckily, to get away with it up to now but are now trying to do the right thing (OK, if the action hadn't been prompted by the insurer they might be tempted to carry on, but that's mere speculation). As we all know there are plenty of British people in France who have been here even longer than that and are still using British-registered vehicles with no tax, MoT, no evidence of French insurance either, and all the time they remain uninsured they will presumably carry on with this, unless they have an accident or otherwise attract the attentions of the law.

As I said, I fear that the original questioner's attempt to become legal may well be answered with a demand for unpaid road tax. But claiming (half-correctly) that the vehicle was off the road for repair, or claiming that the V5C has not been received, might provide a means to get the required paperwork.

What I think is certain, and I didn't mention it before, is that DVLA will not send out a V5C to a French address, and will no doubt want to know, if you give an English address other than where you last lived, why no change of address was notified (that, I think, is an offence too).

So you are probably, as they say, stuffed. As I said, it pays to do things properly from the outset. It's stories like this that explain why the British in France have a reputation as cheapskates.

[Richardbk]

[quote]I hope someone can advise. My husband brought his car to France when he moved here permanently in 98 and didn't change to French plates. At the time it was still possible to insure UK cars with Frenc...[/quote]

You should have received both yearly SORN declarations and the new type form to your previous registration address. If not then maybe your in for a bigger shock when you catch up with the post as SORN declarations are mandatory. 

Unless you can argue that you changed address and put the car in a garage for 5 years, so didn't bother notifying them and now need to get it back on the road and have lost the new V5 form

 

regs

 

Richard

[troll]

Hello

What you could do is get youself a mailbox address in the uk(pretty cheap) then transfer ownership to yourself and then you will have the new reg document. And as the dvlc will not have your husbands address then they will not be able to hassle for money. Of course you could insure it in france and keep it on uk plates for just about everThe cops really couldn't care less.

Albert

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry, why is Albert giving people advice here about ways to break the law/get round the law after they've already been caught doing so?  Is that one of the reasons that this Forum exists to help people do things like that?

Like some of the other threads that get pulled, this will do LF's reputation no good if this and similar threads ever got to be public in France.

Chanced your arm and got caught - the easiest thing to do is just pay up and then fill in the export forms, make yourself legal by complying rather than taking more dodgy advice.

 

[Quillan]

[quote]Hello What you could do is get youself a mailbox address in the uk(pretty cheap) then transfer ownership to yourself and then you will have the new reg document. And as the dvlc will not have your hu...[/quote]

Troll - I know you have have said what many people actually do but it is illegal. The problem with this is that if you have an accident then it will all come out and the insurance company will then tell you that you are not covered because your car is not registered in France and their policy states somewhere that you had 3 months to do so, which we all know to be true.

What people don't know is what CAN happen. The driver will be held responsible and rather like employing people on the black they will end up having to pay. If you only hurt somebody you will have to pay for their medical treatment and if they can't work for several months their wages. If you are in the worse situation of maiming them for life or at worst killing them then you will have to pay them or there family for the rest of your life. This could mean your passport taken and your house (and all your possesions) sold from under you and if you work then your salary taken as well.

Us English might think this can't be done or is unreasonable or that this does not happen. Well in the UK there is a bonding system in to which all insurance compaines pay to cover accidents where a person is not insured. One of the biggest reasons that insurance is cheaper in France is because this system does not exist BU the law has far more reaching powers.

I am affraid I am not so forgiving as others in this thread and am not worried about upsetting the original poster. I am glad they have a problem and I am glad they can't get their car back on the road to drive illegally. It's a shame the police in France are not so vigilant about these English cars breaking the law. I would like to see compulsory registration of cars entering France, although I don't know how you could implement it, and after 3 months the cars confiscated if not on French plates if still here.

It's all well and good people saying you can do this or that as Miki said to save money but it would be different if one of their family were maimed or killed by somebody doing this sort of thing.

Moderators Hat ON

TonyF - I agree with you in part but then Troll has the right to express an opinion and to delete his thread would be pure censorship at this time. He has only said what others know and is not suggesting directly that one should go out and break the law (he used the word could), thats up to them.

Moderators Hat OFF

[pinkfluff<P>Big Wet Drops and Lots of Them, Are a Sure Sign of Rain!<P>]

Well what a friendly lot you are, and I bet every one of you is watching sky illegally in France take that off you and would all be asking for advice Hypocrites

[Teamedup]

One of the biggest reasons that insurance is cheaper in France is because this system does not exist BU the law has far more reaching powers.

 

It was horribly expensive when I came in the 'olde' days. £60 a year fully comp in the UK with about 20% no claims. Getting on for £300 per year as they wouldn't accept my UK no claims. AND that was over a months wages for us in 1981. Any idea why it was so expensive when we got here? It wasn't as if there were 'nice' cars being driven around then, lots of the banioles were clapped out wrecks or that is what they looked like.

[Will]

Pink Fluff - that's an interesting point, and although some will argue that the possible consequences of watching Sky TV in France are nothing like the consequences of an accident while in an uninsured vehicle or employing 'black' builders, as far as the law is concerned one is breaking it, there are not really different degrees of law-breaking.

However, there are always those who can argue that wtching Sky in France is not illegal; just as those who have said here in the past that failing to register a UK vehicle in France is not illegal. Indeed I recall a user who said his insurer met a claim for an accident in a long-term UK registered car in France, but I would imagine that is an exception. Such matters have different interpretations.

It is not Living France's job to dictate to its readers and forums users what they can and cannot do, or even to be arbiters by removing posts that advocate acting in 'grey' areas of the law. What we try to do is to inform people of the possible consequences of such action, then it is up to them if they take the risk or not. I think the possible consequences have been clearly spelled out in this instance.

 

[Quillan]

[quote]Well what a friendly lot you are, and I bet every one of you is watching sky illegally in France take that off you and would all be asking for advice Hypocrites[/quote]

Wow - I would love to know if anyone has been killed or maimed by somebody illegally watching sky TV in France. Somehow I don't think so. But wait could it be that somebody was hit by a falling Sky dish and killed but then would it be the owners fault or the person who istalled it or could he sue Sky under UK law for allowing Sky TV to be recieved in France?

Get a grip, there is no comparision.

[opas]

Just to divert for a second,

Is it illegal not to display your CT and Ins docket(the actual term escapes me) in your car windowscreen. Just as an example, you do not see many French plated cars without a `docket` displayed...even if they are out of date but we have recently passed 2 brit cars parked at the side of the road with beautifully clean windscreens ie, no stickers of any description, Oh , the reason they stuck out like a sore thumb? they were advertising their newly opened restaurant!

back to unpaid road tax.......I assume that the orriginal poster has read all our responses, I hated road tax dodgers when I lived in UK,same as I hated Council tax dodgers....and boy, did I begrudge that last one, but I gave one weeks wage each month to the council...,

Let us hope that this poster has paid his tax dues here , or did her hubby also think he was exempt from that too!

Mrs O

[Washy]

Well I have read all of this thread with interest and although I do not condone breaking the law and ignorance is no excuse.  I have to admit that we were in this positoin ourselves. All our lives we have been law abiding citizens working in positions of responsibility in the community.

And yes, Miki,  it is possible to live in the back of beyond and not be up to date with legalities in the UK - we are in this category. We sold our house very quickly and left the UK in quite a rush having planned the move for years.....When we came here in 2002 we had no tv, no radio, no newspapers, and no internet, and our French insurer (AXA) was very happy to take our money to 'insure' our car in France.

It was rejoining the LF Forum in France that brought us up to date with the new and old DVLA regulations.  I was horrified to think that we had been breaking the law. By then we had started the process to change our numberplates to french ones.  As some of you will know it has taken us a frightful long time to change the plates on the Range Rover and the Prefecture has had all our paperwork for nearly 11 months now.  We rang the DVLA to 'come clean' and to inform them of this when we were 6 months into the precedure and they said that we should continue with the process in France but would not be able to come back to the UK in the car.  They have not contacted us yet, although we gave them our address in France and have expected a big bill.  I will let you know what happens.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Hello What you could do is get youself a mailbox address in the uk(pretty cheap) then transfer ownership to yourself and then you will have the new reg document. And as the dvlc will not have your hu...[/quote]

Oh my God is it the Albi troll? Hi Albi, which bit of "the insurance agent has cancelled the policy, and won't reinsure the car until it is reregistered with French plates" didn't you understand?

A PO Box address!!!!. Oh GET REAL, you really believe that the DVLA will send the registration for a car with 5 years tax owing and no SORN to a PO Box???

Sorry Helen but is this really a case of mistaken belief or simply a case of ducking and diving to save money and now the chickens have come to roost?

To export the car legally, you will need a new certificate unless you really can find a prefecture clerk not clued up on the rules who will accept the old log book but what date are you going to tell the French when you try and register it? The car came to France last week??? But it didn't did it, and they will know because the CT record system will show this.

Bit of a Catch 22 you are in now but if you come clean to the DVLA, and claim ignorance, not the best defense in law by any means, your husband will be lucky if he just pays the back tax,(but then again why shouldn't he, he has paid no tax at all on the car for 5 years) just read back a while to the thread where someone who had told the DVLA that they had gone to France but kept a UK address got fined £1500 for not paying their road tax and not complying with the SORN regs, for just one year.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Well what a friendly lot you are, and I bet every one of you is watching sky illegally in France take that off you and would all be asking for advice Hypocrites[/quote]

What did you expect pink? Oh diddums??

Illegally watching SKY? Speak for yourself, if you are sensible enough to move to France why would you be daft enough to watch anything Murdoch produces? SKY? the only intersesting sky in France is directly overhead and sort of blue with fluffy white bits.

[Miki]

Washy said "....And yes, Miki, it is possible to live in the back of beyond and not be up to date with legalities in the UK - we are in this category. We sold our house very quickly and left the UK in quite a rush having planned the move for years.....When we came here in 2002 we had no tv, no radio, no newspapers, and no internet, and our French insurer (AXA) was very happy to take our money to 'insure' our car in France"

Sorry if it was not clear but I was saying it from a French perspective and that they were living in France and not knowing French regulations, a completely different state of affairs surely. I can easily see why someone does not know what is happening in the UK after 5 years in France,no problem but living here where every Tom, Dick or Harry will soon put you straight about the rules in France and plenty of places to put you straight, is what beggared my belief ! The clue though that I was talking from a French based angle, might have been in this line though "A simple word at any (sous)prefecture would have put you straight" not too many of them places in the UK

As far as insurers are concerned, read what I said again, French insurers were and still are, only too keen to take British money and why not, what is poor form by many, is that some do not too often tell the insured the rules on re-registering the UK car on to French plates.

[pinkfluff<P>Big Wet Drops and Lots of Them, Are a Sure Sign of Rain!<P>]

When they take the money you are covered by at least third party but that does not fit into your nicely packetged argument so you choose to ignore besides its better fun to tell someone off as if you are a headmaster makes you feel gooood Im quite sure the original poster knew thay were going to get slated, as it was their "first post" even though they have lived here for quite some time.

[Teamedup]

Do they really have to cover you if you are doing something that isn't legal? I wouldn't have thought so.

 

From what I've seen of insurance companies they are not keen on paying out if they can justifiably not do so. It isn't after all their fault that someone decides to drive here when unregistered properly. And the insurance companies function isn't to controle their clients papiers.

 

 

[Miki]

"....When they take the money you are covered by at least third party"

Sorry ?

One is insured or not surely ? Can you be even be third party if some insurer finds out you have not obeyed the regulations ? Can you show us the bit where one is covered third party for being illegal on the roads ? I agree though, I do think that insurers should warn you and give you the probationary 3 months to re-register and a simple note on their computers to warn them that so and so has not been in, or faxed to show us the new carte grise etc since being covered by for car insurance by whoever but as TU says, it is not really their job to ensure you are legally entitled to be insured. They insure, then when required to pay up, look for loopholes, nothing new there with insurers!!

Have no fear, French insurers are quite famous for renegading on what one thinks is perfectly good insurance. I have lost count of the number of friends and acquaintances who have thought they were well covered for house and contents insurance and have been offered paltry amounts for loss or damage, when thinking they would get market value or even worse, thinking it was ....new for old !

[le bouffon]

Give the them a brakeit may just be the broker is at fault,or axa in general but doubt it,anyone who thinks they can get away without paying road tax that many years!!!!!!!Well good luck if you can get away with it,doubt they will, best bet is to change cars or change the plates to french after all if anyone lives in france why not and it`s not hard to do at all.