Kit cars in France ?

[Onion van man]

[quote user="Moulin85"]

My understanding regarding the UK now is that to retain an existing plate all the major mechanical components, Engine, Gearbox & Axle must come from the same vehicle. If you ‘mix n match’ it’s either a Q or a new plate if you pay the tax.

 

My contacts idea of ‘rebuilding’ an accident damaged vehicle was to Clone it. Buy a damaged vehicle identical to the one you had just built, transfer all the ID marks and then pass yours off as that damaged car rebuilt.

[/quote]

In the UK it works on a points system, you have to score 8 points or more. you are given points for different things i.e. 1 point for the original engine etc.

You will only get a 'New reg' if nearly all the car is new components. Log books (V5c) are then marked with 'built from some or all used parts' or something to that effect to stop people passing it off as a new car.

Your idea of cloning a car or 'ringing' as it is commonly known is illegal but, you would probably get away with it. The link in my previous post has all the info you need about the points system etc.

[AnOther]

The points system is widely abused, particularly in the case of MGB's restored with a new body shell.

The site OVM linked to states:

"The original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and chassis as one unit - monocoque); or a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by evidence from the dealer or manufacturer (e.g. receipt)."

The new shells available for MGB's are something of a mish mash of bits from various year models so cannot be regarded as "of the same specification". Add to this that the majority of donor cars will have either had a replacement engine and/or grarbox, or else replacements as part of the restoration, then it's not hard to see that, at  the end of the day, virtually nothing of the original car remains.

On that basis every MGB built on a new shell should, without question, be on a Q late but I've yet to see a single one...!

[Onion van man]

In all fairness Ernie, I don't think the points system was designed to worry about silly things such as a new MGB bodyshell having the V8 type inner front wings. They could easy class that as the same and they would only have to inspect a rebuilt or restored car if the owner applied for an inspection anyway.

 I'm sure that the Heritage bodyshell's for the MG's have all been checked to make sure they meet the requirements for a straight re-shell. Don't they come with a certificate saying they meet the required standards and are genuine? It's years since I looked at them but, I'm sure they had documentation with them.

The fact that the car might have had a completely new parts is not a problem provided that it is the same kind as it would have been fitted with when new. When you look at 30 year old cars normally a good percentage of it is not 'original' anyway. Imagine for example the MGB restored by Lindsay Porter in his book about restoration. How much of that body shell could you class as 'original' ? transmission tunnel and front bulkhead?. Add to that most cars have had a new waterpump and new or reconditioned carbs etc. It boils down to 'nit picking' really.

An MGB body on a landrover chassis and running gear however would be correctly given a 'Q' plate.

The points system was designed to stop people just building a car in their garage out of a mix of assorted parts i.e. Chevy engine,escort front suspension,transit rear etc. and then just sticking a number plate on it from a Lada that they scrapped years ago.

[Anton Redman]

Have a look at

http://www.editions-palmier.fr/librairie/nouvelles-du-palmier/22-mai-2007.htm

Seems to give the relevent details for registering a kit car in France. I havenot bought it yet.

[Anton Redman]

Purchased from FNAC Bordeaux today for Euros 5 (last copy in sale) . The book is almost a straight translation  the book Chris Gibbs wrote for Hayes except for Chapter 12 'Les regles Legales' which deals exclusively with the French legal position. Could not retype the 8 pages without breach of copyright but does look worth buyng for anybody considering registering a Kit Car in France

[Chancer]

Anton

Could you give a precis?

I dont want to buy a book that I have already read for 8 pages that may not tell me any more than I already know.

[Anton Redman]

Links as below. Mostly from the book but several of their links do not work or had spelling errors !   French Lotus & Caterham 7 site with Forum

http://sevener.free.fr/

 

French Kit Car Forum  http://kitcar.bb-fr.com

 

Article about importing a Twin Can Escort which was never homolgated in France

http://rcma.free.fr/escort/mines

 

I could not find : http://web.mac.com/frvautier but believe this is now the right address http://web.mac.com/frvautier/iWeb/Les%20voitures%20de%20Frantz%20Mariani/Bienvenue.html

 

General French Motoring Sport and Law links  French Motor Sport Federation

http://www.ffsa.org

 

Transport regulations and Highway Code http://www.securiteroutiere.equipement.gouv.fr

 

Start point for modification of the rules

http://admi.net/jo/20051120/EQUS0501453A.html

 

Controle Technique and certification

http://www.utac.com/fr

 

French Law Texts

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/

 

Code de la route etc

http://lepermis.com/Pages/Secu_Rou/index.htm

 

Directions Régionales de l'Industrie, de la Recherche et de l'Environnement

http://www.drire.gouv.fr/

 

Federation Francais de Vechiles D Epoche

http://www.ffve.org

[Chancer]

Anton

I read the article with interest, it deals with both the "should be possible to do it within the existing framework of legislation" and gives details of some specific decrets which I would never have found, and then goes on to talk about the realities of dealing with "hommes de bêton"!

I dont think that anyone has yet managed to get their own constructed vehicle through, yet money talks! The importers, whether they be factory built Caterhams, Westfields or Chinese quad bikes, have no such problems as they just produce a manufacturers certificate of conformity ginned up on a PC, no crash testing or independant certification required.

I did meet one French guy at Monthlery who had got his Kent engined Caterham 7 past DRIRE but he was a homologation engineer for Renault and either knew where to find the certificates for everything from seat belts to carburettors or as he admitted to me, knew how to make a convincing fake. He told me the biggest problem was with the carburation as Weber still being a going concern could be contacted for verification, he had to use a 28/38 DCD and can never change it.

Finally I loved the advice to find an obliging English enthusiast to help you legally (their words not mine) register and insure it there for worldwide use and circumvent the regs that way, I was just a little surprised to see it in print.

In the thread on MG's (I think it was yours) when it was suggested that many French owners did this and the authorities turned a blind eye it generated a lot of heated dispute[:)]

So it must be legal, I read it in a French book[;-)]

[Anton Redman]

If I ever finish the house I am going to have a serious look at the options. Missed the bourse/auto jumble organised by the Giropnde car club this year but that had a 'C' and an 'A' registered MGB meaning mid sixties UK on UK plates.

[Sunday Driver]

It's amazing that some people will risk prison by forging documents just for the sake of a car....

Code penal Article 441 – 6:

Le fait de se faire délivrer indûment par une administration publique ou par un organisme chargé d’une mission de service publique, par quelque moyen frauduleux que ce soit, un document destiné à constater un droit, une identité ou une qualité ou à accorder une autorisation est puni de deux ans d’emprisonnement et de 30 000 euros d’amende. Est puni des mêmes peines le fait de fournir une déclaration mensongère en vue d’obtenir d’une administration publique ou d’un organisme chargé d’une mission de service public une allocation, un paiement ou un avantage individuel.

 

[AnOther]

I think, like a great many things on both sides of the channel, almost everything may be possible if you know the right moves and the right people, and perhaps more pertinently in France, live in the right department !

As an example, amongst the cars currently stored in my barn at this instant, sporting apparently legitimate registrations, are a 2 home built "specials" and a Lomax 3 wheeler so it seems it CAN be done but nobody is saying it's quick or easy [8-|]

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

 apparently legitimate registrations [8-|]

[/quote]

The article used language similar to that Ernie!

[AnOther]

I say that because they are genuine looking plates and knowing their owner I'm certain they are not false.

The cars in question belong to a long standing and well respected member of the local car club who I'm sure knows every loophole and "workaround" and equally importantly, the people who can facilitate them [;-)]

 

[andyps]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]

Have a look at

http://www.editions-palmier.fr/librairie/nouvelles-du-palmier/22-mai-2007.htm

Seems to give the relevent details for registering a kit car in France. I havenot bought it yet.

[/quote]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]

Purchased from FNAC Bordeaux today for Euros 5 (last copy in sale) . The book is almost a straight translation  the book Chris Gibbs wrote for Hayes except for Chapter 12 'Les regles Legales' which deals exclusively with the French legal position. Could not retype the 8 pages without breach of copyright but does look worth buyng for anybody considering registering a Kit Car in France

[/quote]

I know Chris and he showed me a copy of the French version of the book so I asked him about registering a self build in France - he pointed out the relevant pages in the book but informed me he had nothing to do with writing it and did not know what it said! Should see him next week so I will ask if he knows if anyone has actually succeeded yet.

[friend of stouby]

 

Did anyone succeed in registering a non high volume kit car in France since the previous message?

I have in France a UK registered 223 Lomax owned over many years and now am starting to find time to work on it again. I was starting to come to the sad conclusion that I would have to sell it as we spend less and less time in the UK and thought as many do that registering a kit car here was tres tres difficile, but after reading some of these posts there may be hope?

It is now 31 years old and of course Citroen based.

Have to say that the Lomax is the most fun I've ever had in a car, and I have had some seriously dramatic cars in the past. Driven both in the UK and France people are amazed, amused ( a lot), and incredibly respectfull of a small odd and not very beautiful three wheeler, it's makes people realise that there is still fun in motoring.

Thanks for any help at all

Jamie

  

[maybeziggy]

Bonjour,

Si vous me donnez votre email-adresse, je vous envoy un paquet d'information concernant kitcars.

Salut,

Will

[Rob Roy]

My brother and his son are building an Ultima GTX and have recently bought a Westfield. He has wondered about bringing it to France when he moves over in a few years time, but I think his son might persuade him to leave it in the UK! More information about it:

http://www.macgracing.co.uk/home.shtml

[LP640]

It sounds like you are well versed on this matter, and Im desperately looking for some info on this matter. I am an American with a business in Nice, France, I own several kits like a Lamborghini Murcielago replica in Miami, and will like to bring them here for use during the sumer months then just ship it back to the US or maybe sell one or two here. Do you know if that is possible? Do you can put me in contact that can help me in that matter?

Thanks for your time and any help you or anybody else out there reading this post.

[nectarine]

We've now registered our two kits cars in France (Blackjack Avion - 2CV based and a Blackjack Zero - Moto Guzzi engine ... see their website: www.blackjackzero.com). Anyway, it's only a small outfit but he gave us a CofC although admittedly we had the help of a chap here in France who has registered quite a few 2CV-based kit cars in a neighbouring department.

Interestingly, the Avion was registered at our local Prefecture without too much problem. The Zero, however, with an almost identical CofC, was rejected and we were told it could not be possible. I'd brought the Avion paperwork with me and showed it to them, saying that a few weeks' earlier they'd issued us with a carte grise for that. The clerk glared at me, muttered "a mistake, that is illegal" and attempted to snatch the papers from me but I kept hold of them.

Since the end of the regional numbering system and the introduction of the nationwide one, I've found that you can register your car at ANY prefecture in France, not just the one that deals with your department. So, a trip to our friend in the adjoining department and to his prefecture and hey presto, no problem with the carte grise.

So kit cars can be registered ... eventually!

[Théière]

Well done nectarine.......

Very lomax ish, what was the reason the bureaucrat was winging?

[nectarine]

it was the numero de ... hmm, 'occasion, I think, something to do with the import number. But apparently if you are a 'small series' producer then you do not need an import number. And interpretation of this varies between departments. But the neighbouring department has more experience of these, as my friend has registered several, so there was no mention at all of this.

[Théière]

Ah a stupid minor point then, nothing contructional, thought it might be because it looks like Jacque Chirac, especially the nose [:)]

[Dog]

I have been reading this thread as an exowner of a V6 engined Lotus 7 lookalike. I decided to stick with fast motorcycles they seemed far safer.

I worked for a company that supplied Certificates of Conformity and have some knowledge of how they work and what they are.

At it's simpliest it is a piece of paper that describes the item/product as exactly as possible and is usually prepared by the manufacturer but not always.

It is exactly the same for cars/motorcyles as in other industries.

The manufacturer must accurately describe the vehicle.

http://www.certificateconformity.eu/

The above site gives some info on CoC's and shows you what they look like.

The following site explains how they are issued.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31992L0053:en:NOT

It states quite clearly that in the case of small or single manufacture they can be issued by the manufacturer.

There is no reason why you cannot issue a CoC yourself for the car you manufactured.

Just make sure you give all the information required as stated on this site and sign it.

[Chancer]

Nice one Dog [:D]

[Dog]

This site really makes it simple.

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/formalities/index_en.htm