Car accident. Valuation of RHD car

[Lotmontel]

Hi

I have searched the forum and have read such worrying info that I thought I would start my own post!

Briefly; I was involved in a car accident last Thursday on the school run, rural road, I was approaching a junction to turn right, young woman turned left into my road completely cutting the corner and hit me head on, no major injuries (thankfully, especially since I had my 5yr old in the back).

Completed and signed the constat (with the help of what seemed half the village!); other woman agreed (and made the appropriate cross) that it was entirely her fault. Photos of the accident were also taken.

My car has been assessed to be a write-off. We are currently awaiting the valuation of the car. The woman who works at the garage (and is friends with the assessor) said that it was not looking good for the valuation as it is RHD.

Car is a french registered Scenic Dynamique (late 2001) 1.6 16v with 103,000 kms with good service history in VGC (or was!). Insured for toutes risques.

Does anyone know how the assessor works out the valuation of RHD cars? As I said I have searched the forum and found posts suggesting that assessors have valued RHD cars at 'nil' in the past. I'm not expecting to get the same pay-out as for a LHD but surely the pay-out must be realistic. We have been lent a courtesy car but it's not clear how long we will get to keep it.

Has anyone else been in a similar position? Are payouts on RHDs really that bad and if so is it really worth taking out toutes risques insurance for a RHD car?

Many thanks for any comments

Lotmontel

[Anton Redman II]

If you used an insurance agent I suggest talking to them now. Come armed with a calculation of how much it would cost to replace the car with a similar RHD car. Make sure you have everything covered, cert of conformity, headlamps plus labour, new plates and registration taxes. You have no leaverage with the valuer but they may have some. Toutes risk versus third party rearly depends what happens if car is written off and how much extra it costs.

[Lotmontel]

Ty for your reply Anton Redman II.

Our insurance is arranged through an Insurance broker so I will contact them on Friday (after the bank holiday). I'm surprised that I would need to discuss the valuation with the insurance company as other posts on here have said that one would need to negotiate with the assessor.

However, do you think that a photocopy of the relevant page of the lastest Glass (?) magazine would suffice for the value of the car in the UK? If not, do you have any ideas about what evidence the insurance company would need to accept the value in the UK.

The cumulative cost of the CoC, change of headlamps, carte grise and registration plates should be easy enough to ascertain as will the premier registration in France eco-tax be easy to calculate.

I may even throw in the cost of the lift to the airport, one way flight to the UK, taxi / train fees to pick up the car / hotel fees / ferry crossing / fuel for driving the car back to exactly the spot where the accident happened!!!

I'm being flippant but I'm still so angry at the other driver and will be even more so if I end up having an inferior car just because she was driving like a maniac on the wrong side of the road!

Anton, I don't understand your last sentence. Are you saying that toutes risques for RHDs is worth it, or one can never know if it is worth it until your car is written-off and then you find out!

Thank you for replying,

Lotmontel

[Sunday Driver]

The standard procedure in the case of an accident like this is for the insurer to appoint an assessor to determine the cost of repairing the vehicle and submit a report to them.  If his report determines that the cost of repairs will exceed the vehicle's market value (as set down in the Argus Cote) then the insurer will 'write-off' the vehicle and offer the Argus Cote value in compensation.  The standard Argus value is adjustable up or down to take into account the mileage, certain optional extras fitted and any recent repairs which may have enhanced the vehicle's value.  In practice, as this is a pre-determined fixed offer, it will be normally made by the assessor on behalf of the insurer, to whom any dispute should be addressed.

If your insurance company did not specifically require you to disclose the fact that it was a RHD vehicle at the time of the initial proposal and there is no specific exclusion or limiting condition mentioned in the policy terms, then there would be no reason for the standard Argus valuation not to apply.  Note that there is no provision in the Argus Cote system to 'down-value' a right hand drive vehicle.

Rather than leaping in to argue for a UK valuation (which is likely to be somewhat lower than a French one), I'd be inclined to wait for the insurer's/assessor's report.

Your can work out the Argus Value of your car with this on-line calculator

 

[suein56]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]Your can work out the Argus Value of your car with this on-line calculator   [/quote]

That is a nifty site; my almost 14 year old Saxo is valued at 1560€. I am in shock.

Sue

[Will]

Very interesting. Thanks SD.

We put a car for sale today on a certain anglophone forum and have had loads of whinges about the asking price. As it's just under half of the Argus valuation it reinforces my view of the users of that forum. Cheapskates.

[Anton Redman II]

I would say it was somewhere in the middle. I persuaded my insurer that that the UK invoice price plus € 2500 for the grief of sorting out ECC and paying for immatriculation was OK. Say € 14000 neither of us wanted a declared value of € 35000 which was what Stewart & Arden in Bordeaux wanted for an LHD Jaguar with the same kilometres and about the same age. There must be some discount for  RHD in France even if it has a full ECC

[Lotmontel]

Thank you all for your replies. The argus website was interesting - it is curious how private sellers here are asking for considerably more than the actual argus value! Perhaps it is a seller's market?!

Thank you again.

[Lotmontel]

UPDATE - please help!

We received the assesor's letter today. It states that the repair costs for my car would be €6611,43 HT and €7907,25 TTC and the value of the car (avant sinistre) is €2090,30 HT so €2500,00 TTC. The letter continues to tell us our options i.e. ceder / faire reparer / conserver votre vehicule. Obviously there is only one realistic option!

I have looked at the argus link given by Sunday Driver and the value of my car comes out at €3900 base with an allowance for low kilometage of €1010 and an additional €130 for the fact that it was a later model 2001. This would be €5040 then.

British prices going by the April 2010 Glass's trade book value it at £2375 plus £154 for low mileage so £2529.

(Neither prices reflect the extras such as fingertip remote control CD / Audio system.)

My RHD car is being valued as 50% less than an equivalent LHD car in france and, using 1.12 exchange rate, 12% less than the value of the same RHD car in the UK!

Surely there must be a "like for like" payout situation when you are not at fault. I don't care whether I drive a LHD or RHD car but I want the same family car.

I am starting to print off the costs incurred to buy a second-hand car in the UK - so far €304.50 euros just for the first registration and eco-tax. Still need to find out the cost of the Certificate of Conformity, headlamps replacement and cost of registration plates; let alone the cost of going to get it and bring it back.

I will not accept that a stupid driver can write my car off and I will end up being worse off. Perhaps I'm naive but it's just not fair!

I am gathering the relevant information to write to the insuance company but if anyone has advise about what to add or say then I would be really grateful!

TYIA

Lotmontel

[Chancer]

I would avoid all references to it being a RHD car and to the cost of registration COC's etc unless they have justified the valuation by saying it is RHD .

Go back to them with the Argus value and the adjustments, tell them that is the market value of the vehicle and put the ball in their court.

Arguing about registration, eco taxes and COC's is irrelevant, will get you nowhere and may even bring their attention to an easy get out, its a simple matter of is the valuation reasonable or not.

Good luck and send your letter accusé de reception.

P.S. Were you using a current Glasses guide? unless things have changed these were only available to traders paying a subscription, and what price were you using, retail, trade in or private sale?

In the UK most assessors would use the lower figure so you may have indeed been offered market value for the vehicle.

[Russethouse]

 Years ago a French person I know had a similar complaint, they had an old but good car written off in an accident which was not there fault and still ended up being paid peanuts and having to make up the difference to put themselves back on the road in a similar condition.

I suspect that RHD has little to do with it, its just an inequity of the insurance system, which is probably the same here (UK). For example I'm perfectly happy with my 10 year old Picasso, but I suspect I'd be very lucky to be offered £1500 for it as a write off, even though it has x, y and z refinements.....

[Lotmontel]

I don't think that I'm wrong wanting like for like. I didn't ask for the stupid person to drive on the wrong side of the road and hit me head on.

There is no doubt who was at fault so her insurance company should pay out for the car at the point of the accident.

Sorry, if I've been rude but I'm beyond upset right now. I loved that car!

[NickP]

[quote user="Lotmontel"]I don't think that I'm wrong wanting like for like. I didn't ask for the stupid person to drive on the wrong side of the road and hit me head on. There is no doubt who was at fault so her insurance company should pay out for the car at the point of the accident. Sorry, if I've been rude but I'm beyond upset right now. I loved that car![/quote]

Unfortunately in this situation we're  all in the hands of the insurance companies, and I'm sure that the loss adjusters have a vested interest in keeping their paymasters costs down. I lost a beautiful 2.6 190 Mercedes in a totally blame free ( on my part) accident with a very large lorry. I got £2000, and that in no way allowed for what this almost perfect example of the marque was worth. It wasn't quite old enough for classic car insurance, one of the few ways you can get "proper value" in return for your premium.

[Russethouse]

 I don't think you are wrong to want that either, but I suspect that an insurance company would argue that by giving what they calculate is your cars value at the time of the impact that is what they are offering........it doesn't feel fair, but I personally don't think that you are being penalised for it being a RHD.  Proper value from the insurance companies perspective and yours differ considerably.....

In addition, trite though it may seem to say it, you walked away from that crash, you only have to read Coops experiences, another totally blameless victim of a road accident, to perhaps put it in a different perspective, she probably couldn't physically drive her old car now, even if she wanted to. It could have been a whole lot worse.

[cooperlola]

One thing, however, R/H, is that my old car was properly valued and I was able to buy a newer, bigger car with a lower mileage to replace it.  But I pay extra for this to my insurers (MAAF) and still do (they have a "premium value" option), and it was they who settled the bill, and paid me an additional amount for the contents which were destroyed (1.2k as the thing was full of camping equipment, plus my Nikon and a few lenses got smashed).  I assume that they will claim back from the other party's insurance but at least I had a hassle free payment from them.  They've also been brilliant in acting on my behalf with the lorry driver's lot and I've had reasonable interim payments from them every few months after both insurers' medics have done their assessments.  To my mind at least, it's only when you have an accident that you realise whether an insurer is good or not - it's not all about being cheap - as our o/p is discovering.

Years ago my neighbours had a drunk drive his car into their garden where the wife's father's 12 year old Saab was parked.  He had had the car from new and had looked after it really well, sparing no expense keeping it in tip top condition.  He got about £800 for the thing and was devastated as, although it was a reasonable auction price for a similar car, nothing he could have bought to replace it could have been guaranteed to have been so well looked after.  I suspect that the RHD element is only part of the problem.  As R/H says, we are rather inclined to over-value our cars.  A French motoring magazine which I get from time to time lists the 3 year depreciation values on all the cars on the market and these are always a minimum of 40%, even here where second hand values are pretty high.

I know how you feel though, Lotmontel, I still miss my little car and she saved my life!

[Lotmontel]

R/H, I know that I should keep this in perspective and I am so grateful (to whomever) that nobody was hurt in the accident. I can still hear my son's screams in my head!

We will go back to the insurance company asking how the assessor reached the valuation armed with the argus value found on Sundaydriver's link and see what happens.

Thank you all so much for your help.

[Russethouse]

 Well I wish you all the best with it, much as I like my Picasso I don't quite love it the way I did the Espace, but the time had come......it had to go...

[AnOther]

I don't know how it works in France but if they are basing their offer on auction value, which is what it sounds like, then can you refuse the money and tell them to buy you one identical to the one you have been deprived of instead ?

[Lotmontel]

ANOTHER UPDATE!

The assesor won't budge on the valuation because he said that RHD cars are not worth anything in France. Our insurance brokers are saying that they can only go by what the assessor says. We are now trying to discuss this with the actual insurance company - Generali.

It's looking like I would have been better off spending my money on a LHD 206 and squeezing the children's car seats in a 3 door car.

I now have the horrible decision of whether to buy a LHD or RHD. Whatever I choose is going to be expensive but going for LHD is really totally beyond our budget so I guess there is no big decision there!!!

So much for paying for insurance for a RHD car; your car can be written off through no fault of your own and you end up wiith nothing!

Still fuming!!!

Lotmontel

[AnOther]

Thats apalling.

If it is common practice then all those with RHD should only ever insure 3rd party costing the insurance companies far more in lost revenue than they would ever pay out in claims.

Either that or get a written agreed valuation before accepting the policy.

Am PM'ing you also.

[Chancer]

Now let's put this in perspective.

You have not ended up with nothing for your car, you said that the offer was 12% less than its value in an old Glasses Guide and I will bet my bottom dollar that you didnt use the trade or auction price.

You would probably have been offered less had you been insured in the UK, if the assessors opinion is that RHD cars are worth nothing in France and there are plenty on this forum (not I) that eschew that view then he must like you to have come up with the figure he did.

I would be telling myself that I had done rather well in the circumstances, OK thats a bit harsh, you didnt ask to be involved in an accident but life is like that, if it werent we would not have insurance.

[Russethouse]

Well Chancer, I would be asking my broker if RHD are worth nothing, did he discount the original policy accordingly ?  I'd also be asking him if a like for like policy is available for next time round.

[Chancer]

I remember having the conversation with Mr Smily Shark AXA agent, he promised me that in the event of an accident they woud use the Argus value without discriminating against RHD, when I told him I didnt believe him and would he kindly confirm it in writing he changed his tune, you are going to love this................

"If they were to decide a lower value for any reason then you can trust me to step in on your behalf" [:-))]

Mmmm....... trust, tied insurance agent, AXA..............  they dont sit well together.

I now only have responsibilité tiers as ANO suggested.

[Payrac-man]

Hi All

Had an accident myself in Orleans Dec 17th in the snow. Insuance company wrote it off gave me £4700 for a 2004 Picasso. I bought it back for £1400 and repared it for £3000 using non genuine and some used parts. How much damage is there? Mine hit a tree.

[Lotmontel]

Hi all who have helped me!

(Payrac-man, the assesor's report said that it would cost €7700 to repair with a valuation of €2500 before accident, so no option there to do it ourselves!)

I just want to thank everyone for their replies and to AnOther for his pm (I didn't follow it up but ty).

I have decided to just accept that insurance companies are 'not very fair and just' and move on.

My next car will be a RHD car because I can't afford a LHD car.

When it comes to insuring it, I will certainly take on your advice and ask them to clarify exactly what value they are placing on the RHD car and to adjust our premiums accordingly.

Once we have arrived at an OK premium price, and signed the insurance contract, we will change our policy for my husbands RHD Mondeo to 3rd Party, fire and theft.

Thank you all for all your help and advice.

Lotmontel