Selling cars.

[Bones]

Has anyone ever sold Cars in France for a living?

I'm thinking of an auctions, no pitch, one man band scenario for myself. I'd be selling French registered cars to fellow Brits, (not bangers or Porsches!).

Obviously I'll be looking into this in more depth myself, and I do have contacts in the trade both here and in the UK, but would be very interested in anyone's experiences or knowledge of the trade in France from a (business) registration and insurance perspective.

I was going to test the waters by buying a car from the auctions as a private individual - but you have to pay by cheque and I can't get a blinkin' chequebook out of the bank as I'm currently unemployed (funds arriving soon though)!

Cheers.

ps. I've already done my research as far as auction rules over here, relative prices and demand etc.

[Keni]

We are thinking of retuiring to France, what area are you in - mainly because my hubby, Chris. is interested in perhaps looking for  a job delivering cars - like we do over here on trade plates. Does that happen in France? If your business got going, would you be looking for a delivery driver?

Keni

[Llwyncelyn]

Hi Bones as to whether there is a market I am not sure for its not my bag.  However some of us perhaps would prefer to talk English to a fellow English guy when making such an investment as buying a car.  Again I am not sure as to the laws in respect of what we would refer to as Consumer Law probably does not exist.  No doubt there are lots of wise men and ladies on this forum who will come back to you.

However what I will say that I am instructed (I am a lawyer) by a client who bought a van LHD from a French based but UK registered (!) company.  It went wrong and we are suing through the UK courts.

 

rdgs

[Nick Trollope]

Bit of simple maths;

The english-speaking population accounts for about 0.3% of the market (assuming that they buying population is "linear"). If, in a year, 5% of these people want a new car, and 5% of them bought from you you would have 0.000075% of the total French market (turnover). I've no idea what the French SH car market is worth per year, but assuming it is 100M€, you are looking at a turnover of 7.500€ and a pre-cost profit of (say) 750€. Does that stack up?

I love maths... I've got a 'A' level, you know...

[Miki]

I have to be honest here. When I have bought and sold cars (old habits die hard, it was my biz for a for while in the UK) they have generally been to order. That has meant buying from Spain, Belgium and the UK but now, it really is not as easy as it once was. That is to say, most of my contacts now have decent cars and fewer people are asking me, if at all in the last few months.

If I was to have taken it up seriously some years back, I would have found a good area to be (among other new and used dealers) and bought or rented a decent size pitch (20 plus cars) Selling regularly  from home is not really going to be a player. Ebay France is nowhere near as popular as the UK ebay, selling in weekly/monthly journals is fraught with competition and 99.9 % of phone calls will be in French, so that will mean good fluency.

At best I would say try your luck part time, i.e have a day job but you will need a fair amount of capital, a decent car at auction starts around 5-8000 euros (and more of course) and re-selling on from that, means a very small market at that price level. If you become a proper dealer, then what guarantees will you offer and what have you set aside for a workshop to remedy probs, from simple stone chips from a car bought wholesale to servicing and even warrantees ?

Don't want to put you off but I felt all that was worth mentioning.

 

[Llwyncelyn]

Nicktrollope you are amazing I wish I could do thinks like that,  no wonder we are suing the guy he does not have the money and was undoubtedly working here illegally.  However I found him in the UK and he had a minor heart attack when the writ was served on him.  Now Nick what are the statistical chances of my selling my house here in Normandie within the next three months.  What factors do you need to know before you can apply your A level maths?  I once knew someone who went to Oxford and had a double first in pure and applied Mathematics.  He went into the Civil Service and has just retired having made a bundle and with a inflation proof pension of course.....................

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Llwyncelyn"]Nicktrollope you are amazing I wish I could do thinks like that,  no wonder we are suing the guy he does not have the money and was undoubtedly working here illegally.  However I found him in the UK and he had a minor heart attack when the writ was served on him.  Now Nick what are the statistical chances of my selling my house here in Normandie within the next three months.  What factors do you need to know before you can apply your A level maths?  I once knew someone who went to Oxford and had a double first in pure and applied Mathematics.  He went into the Civil Service and has just retired having made a bundle and with a inflation proof pension of course.....................[/quote]

Ahhh... there lies the problem. I did "pure" mathematics - none of this (what we then called) "modern" maths. And, like most statistics, you stick yer finger in the air, then guess. Who is going to challenge you?

If I was really (or any) good at statistics, I would have been able to work out the chances of my pension being ripped off by a major (Australian) pension company. But I didn't.

Selling a house in Normandy depends on ... errr ... if someone will buy it? Don't ask me!

 

[Keni]

Can anyone therefore tell us why second hand cars are so expensive in France - or so it appears to us. We have looked around the Charente/Dordogne and Limousin areas and it does seem that cars are very much more expensive than here in the UK.

We have at present a Nissas Primera, whiich if i wanted to 'become French', I am told would take forever, being a British made (Sunderland) car. By the time I had tracked down all the necessary stuff it would be too old. We are therefore looking for either in the UK or france a second-hand small white van (well everyone else has one) or hatchback, but for an old model runabout as it were, prices seem really high.

 

Keni (female)

[cooperlola]

Because the French keep their cars for ages, so there are fewer second hand cars for sale. Market forces as ever.

On the selling front - just a bit more to back up the caution.  At first viewing this may not seem relevant but it is. 

There are a number of extremely talented French motor racing drivers out there - Sebastian Bourdais is just one of them.  He and his fellows complain that they have no expectation of ever getting a Formula One drive because car manufacturers (even Renault) see the French market as being a very limited one because of the habit of keeping cars for much longer and not buying new every two or three years as so many people do elsewhere.  Obviously, it's a simplistic view on the part of the drivers and there are no doubt other reasons but it confirms the points made above.  This is not the lucrative business it may seem to be in the UK

[Llwyncelyn]

Nicktrollope I see you live in Bretagne.  Watch out Northern France so it seems for on Wednesday night Thursday morning they are saying that there is a big storm on its way with structural damage forecast

However statistically can one rely upon France Meteo?

 

rdgs

[Sunday Driver]

Keni

French cars don't depreciate as much as those in the UK, so whilst you may pay more to buy one, you'll get a good price when you sell it on.

If you'd prefer to hang on to your Sunderland built Primera, then it should sail through registration here.  Once you've obtained a type approval certificate of conformity from Nissan France and a set of second hand headlamps, then you can complete the rest of the simple formalities within a couple of days...

 

[Sunday Driver]

Bones

If you're going be selling cars, then you'll have to register as a business with all the associated costs - someone will no doubt come along and describe the process as well as the costs (hefty social charges on income,  tax, etc).

Also the Sale of Goods Act has it's equivalent in France....

 

[YCCMB]

As a follow-on to Nick's amazing maths, the French NEW car market last year amounted to just over 2 million registrations, and even the CCFA doesn't provide up-to-date figures for secondhand sales. In 2005, however, of the total parc, about 17.5% were secondhand cars, and the overall market is declining (at the moment). So, it's quite a small market, as Nick said, and the Clio has 8.5% of it...........

[Bones]

Nick, I loved the maths!

However my 'target market' wouldn't be restricted to expats living in France.

One of my best mates is an English mechanic - with his own garage local to me, so that could help.

I also have family in Munich and Manchester who are involved (in one way or

another) in the motor trade and am sounding them out for interest/ideas. Munich for buying and Manchester for selling!

I'm an hour away from a large and busy auction house in Toulouse; I went there the other day and the prices seemed comparable to those in Brittany, if not a tad cheaper.

Sample price: 16k for a Grand Scenic with a book price of 22k. Somebody is making a living from selling cars over here - the place was hammered with traders!

 

I'm roughly aware of the nightmare that is starting a small business in France, but am interested  in hearing about the sale of goods act somebody referrenced and specifically how that affects motor traders: business insurance etc...

I seem to recall schemes that existed in the UK that second hand dealers would subscribe to - they covered gearbox failures etc IF the garage couldn't reasonably argue the cause was down to wear and tear.

I'll be looking into it soon myself, but was just wondering if anyone had any specific experience?

 

I envisage exporting some cars to the UK for resale there; they'd come with the relevant French paperwork for change of ownership - with a quick 'how to' guide in english. I need to look into what substantiates (right word?) exportation of a car for resale and how that effects  business related income etc etc etc.

Watching Ebay Uk, and noticing the big change in prices of LHD cars in the UK over the last few years, I think there's a market for French registered/C.T.'d cars. I also live near an airport that covers UK and Ireland through cheapo Ryanair if people want to pick up/view the car in France.

The fear that a car may explode shortly after selling it could be gotten around by starting off buying cars still under manufacturer's warranty from auction. There seemed to be affordable examples around. Having said that, the decision will probably be made for me when I get all the right info.

My general plan is to have a reasonably rapid turnover based on low running costs, cheap prices and not treating people like idiots! Nick's maths will probably put paid to that little utopia...

Tons of research to do yet, I really hope it gets off the ground though.

Thanks for all your replies.

[Bones]

OOps! sorry for that mega reply!

On the subject of French high priced second hand cars:

I reckon it's partly down to the lax CT standards.

I think I'm right in saying that the Japanese MOT is rock solid (cars over a certain age and emissions or something) and that's how we end up with so many cheap Japanese imports that fly through the British MOT!

No need to get rid of your French shed if they keep CT'ing it for the price of a new headlamp; hence people hang on to there cars longer and this leads to higher prices. [:P]

[Paul Bradford]

Hi Bones,

I'm not sure that your 'lax CT standards' comment is correct. In 2006 I bought a French registered car in the UK before we moved here. The CT was well overdue. I had a lot of work done in the UK along with a MOT. I had arranged French insurance and wanted the MOT as I was concerned that I might get a tug on the journey from Calais to the Lot-et-Garonne. Once we arrived I took the car for a CT. The mechanic was as thorough, if not more so that his UK counterpart. It failed on an incorrectly sized tyre. I hadn't noticed it, nor had my mechanic in the UK, or the MOT station! A quick trip to the pneu place and on my return a new CT sticker in the window.

I wish you luck with your business. I sold cars for a while in the UK and know its not easy if you want to be fair and build a good reputation. There is certainly a market for reasonably priced cars here. It's often cheaper to consider buying new than a recent secondhand car. 

Regards

Paul

[Cerise]

Bones - my OH was car dealer in UK, but when we were looking to buy a second hand car here he noticed that most places were in fact 'Depot de Vente' - that is they were selling other people's property on a commission basis.  He was horrified by the lack of presentation etc, but realised that the people so called 'selling' the cars had very little interest in it.  Now I don't know why this system is popular but it may be something to do with the 'regs and qualifications' for being a car dealer.  When we went on a setting up a business type course at the Chambre de Commerce there was a chap there from Corsica.  He had been a car dealer in Corsica for 18 years - could prove it too - but was finding it impossible to do here unless he went on some mega  expensive course to 'qualify' him to be a car dealer.  Don't know all the details, but understandably the chap was fairly hacked off.  if you haven't already done so may be worth finding out if you have to have these 'qualifications'.

[Bones]

Cheers Cerise!

This is kind of what I was worrying about: there's always something.

I know one guy around here that failed in one of his ventures. He used to bring containers of cars in from Germany - but apparently he bought crappy stock and was asking for problems: looking for the quick buck I guess.

Re the CT:

I forgot to mention -- the French will fail you on a dodgy lense; tyre; or even a slightly knackered number plate. But none of these things are important from a longevity point!

I think the CT is more or less a visual test rather then a proper check. I bought my car with a fresh CT. Since then I've changed the clutch, both driveshafts, brakes, starter motor, battery -- rear axle is going, shocks are more or less gone, exhaust -- you name it!

Apparently they never used to have a CT at all, the plan is to gradually introduce more stringent regulations as the years pass.

Bear in mind that the CT lasts for two years - so if anything it should be mega stringent. If an exhaust is on it's way out you're bound to fail an emmissions test in under a year's time, and what about brake pads etc?

[blink]

[Jc]

A UK Mot only checks cars at the inspection date,not for what they'll be like in the future!!

[Bones]

Yeah, but it comes back around within twelve months; not two years!

Anyhow, it is stricter.

[Anton Redman]

[quote user="Bones"]OOps! sorry for that mega reply!

On the subject of French high priced second hand cars:

I reckon it's partly down to the lax CT standards.
I think I'm right in saying that the Japanese MOT is rock solid (cars over a certain age and emissions or something) and that's how we end up with so many cheap Japanese imports that fly through the British MOT!

No need to get rid of your French shed if they keep CT'ing it for the price of a new headlamp; hence people hang on to there cars longer and this leads to higher prices. [:P]
[/quote]

The Japanese MOT is deliberately set up to be so expensive to stimulate the domestic market. You almost have to strip the car and rebuild it to get it through. . I think the UK prices for secondhand cars are too low rather than France being too high.  Also if you look round the big cities Lyon, Bordeux Paris Marseiles etc you will find  good value French cars for sale,

 

[Bones]

I was just thinking; does the price of scrap metal affect the price of used cars?

There was a time when scrapping your old UK car was an option, but in recent years you've had to pay someone to scrap it for you!

Is this going to change now that the price of certain metals is on the rise again?

I was told before I arrived that the big price difference is only really apparent when it comes to the lower end of the market; this would seem to hold true.