Wood burning stove (again) novice - help please

[Carole]

I do not have a clue about wood burning stoves but live in a freezing old house with enormous open fire place.

I have been advised that the best way of heating this is to install a wood burning stove. The chimney has been swept and has no lining, just the stones of the chimney itself.

A friend has suggested that I purchase a stove and the pipe can go up and be supported by the chimney. After having read the many threads on this subject it sounds as if something more needs to be done.

Taking away the actual cost of the stove what sort of price can I expect for an installation. My house is two storey with an attic.

Sorry about my ignorance but I am used to the jungle heat of the Far East where the only fire around was when the locals burnt banana leaves for light instead of using a torch!!

What are the thoughts on my friend's idea?

[LesFlamands]

A chimney liner is required which is usually a stainless steel flexible tube with a smooth interior, fixed at the top of the chimney with a special bracket. At the fireplace end the pipe exiting the stove is usually enamelled steel to match the stove and then connects to the liner using the specific adapter/reducer (again stainless steel). The joint should be made out of sight but easily accessible just behind the lintel. At the same level you will also need a register plate to block the chimney opening around the flue pipe. This is usually metal with some 'firerock' insulation above. The register plate and frame has to be custom made to suit your chimney and should also be easily removable for servicing purposes. You may also need to fit or replace the rain cover at the top of the chimney. 

Depending on access to the top of the chimney the cost of fitting the liner (usually 8/9 metres for a two storey house) and making and fitting the register plate should be around 800 to 1000 euros plus TVA at 5.5%. This should include fitting the stove as well. Don't buy a cheap stove as you'll be disappointed. If it is your main heat get a good stove that will stay in overnight and which is generously rated for the volume you have to heat.

[zeb]

Yes, you will need a woodburner with a flexi liner which goes up the chimney and is clipped to the top. You will also need a register plate which fits across the chimney opening in your room to stop the heat going up the chimney.

Most woodburner stockists will supply and install. Friends have just had a super large Godin supplied/installed (by Weldoms) and the total came to about 2800, but as they live here permanently (fiscally resident), they could claim 50% credit back from L'impots on the cost of the woodburner; not the other parts or labour, but labour was charged at 5.5%TVA.

Make sure you get one large enough to heat the space though. Your stockist will advise.

Have a look at www.godin.fr

www.supra.fr

www.jotul.com

[Deimos]

Remember that if you fill in a French income tax return you can get some very good tax credits when you get a wood burning stove supplied and installed by a professional.  When I got mine it was 50% of the wood burner cost but I think there is now an additional percentage credit on the chimney liner.

Check with the supplier/installer if this is a major factor.  You still pay their entire bill but submit the invoice/paperwork with your tax return for the year the work was invoiced and then get the credit off your tax bill (for some this might result in a refund).

Ian

[londoneye]

Also, do not just check the wood-burner prices in local stores, eg M. Bricolage.

A friend of mine just purchased and had a wood-burner installed from a local supplier/fitter.   Even though the same wood burner was on sale in M Bricolage, because the installer was doing everything he only charged her trade price for the burner, which was still around 150 euros cheaper than the same one in M Bricolage.   Thus, although you may instinctively feel it might be cheaper to shop around and find yourself a wood burner at a good price, do check with the installers, as this may not always be the case (it may be the case on occasion I am sure, but clearly not always from the experience of my friend).

[Gluestick]

You've had some excellent advice here already!

Yes, go to a specialist who can install correctly.

Many builders can: but you may be disappointed.

Also remember that after a good stove which has been correctly installed and achieves the right draught, the most critical aspect is the wood!

This must be one of the better woods, such as Hornbeam (the best) oak or hard fruitwood. It must be aged for at least two years for optimum burn efficiency.

This is really critical with modern stoves like the Godin, as they "Toast" the wood and burn the vapour totally to maximise heat value from combustion.

Soft, young, sappy woods cause massive problems with creosote and fuming.

You'll normally find that there will be loads of French farmers and locals who will happily sell you wood: of the wrong sort!

Once properly installed and regularly maintained it will last for years.

 

[clarksinfrance]

Right here we go then.

Firstly it is not always necessary (it certainly isn't law) to have a flexible flue liner. If the chimney is in a sound condition, it will suffice, this must be checked by a competent installer. If you use a flexible flue-liner,  make sure it is of the variety for multi-fuel/woodburning fires, not the type for gas. It is necessary to have a solid pipe to connect the woodburner to a flexible liner, this can be stainless steel or enamelled but must be 1mm thick steel. Any joints need female end to point skyward, and male end downwards (no sniggering); this keeps the condensates in the flue. Yes a register plate should be fitted, be it for an open chimney, or flexible flue liner. An access point for easy sweeping should be incorporated to the configuration. If your woodburner has a rear exit (not on top) 150mm is the maximum horizontal run allowed. Never reduce the flue size, (it is against the law/normes/directives/standards and will give an insurance company an easy "out" if any problems arise); it is always preferable to use the same size flue, as hole in the woodburner, its what it has been designed to use. It is permissable to go up in size, providing there is enough draw in the liner. (This depends on dozens of criteria). Flue or chimney must be swept twice a year, once during the burning season. Do not have more than 2 bends in a flue (preferable no more than 22.5 degrees, maximum allowed 45 degrees). There are many regulations concerning the exit of the flue, such as distance to boundaries, roofs, neighbours, height etc, a competent, qualified installer will be able to explain these regs. An installation plate must be fitted near the appliance, with certin info such as how many bends, type of construction, name address of installer and 1 or 2 other things. Room must have adequate ventilation. Metal flue liners are deemed to last 10 years, but a poorly fitted one can last as little as 4,  (as someone on a French forum can testify to recently) the condensates are very corrosive.

Just to clarify, I am not a fitter, but having been had numerous people telling me many different things, I decided to research the rules and regs myself, if only to demistify the subject. In the end, I fitted my own woodburner, and used a €150 insert from Brico Depot. This is all we use to heat our longere and we use 2 steres of wood a winter (2/3 a chord) at a cost of €100, but it is well insulated.

So I believe a well fitted woodburner is much more efficient, economical and cheaper to run than an expensive burner fitted badly.

Some idea of materials prices:

flexible liner 180mm €22/m

ss tube 180mm x 1m €30

chapeau €30

A tip if you have the space is to surround the old chimney with high density fire proof insulation with reflective foil facing the room, this will increase the heat emmitted to the room 3 fold (your old stone walls won't be soaking the heat up as a large heatsink.

Hope this is of some use.

[Wilko]

The Clarks are corect wth a woodburning stove you do not need a full length flexible flu (expensive)  if the chimney is in reasonable condition. I would not put a wood burning stove into a fireplace as the heat loss is enormous. If you have to use the fireplace I would fit an insert which we find to be much more effcient, not to mention cheaper to buy, tho with an insert you will have to have a full length flexible flu. We have 2 Godin woodburners and an insert.........I just need to buy a forest in the near future.

Stay Warm

wilko

[LesFlamands]

[quote user="clarksinfrance"]
 the condensates are very corrosive.
[/quote]

Indeed they are, which is one of the main reasons for fitting a chimney liner. The flexible stainless steel liner with a smooth interior (required by regulations for wood burning appliances) is one of the most cost effective ways of lining an old chimney although I have not seen the correct liner at 22 euros/metre. As well as preventing further degradation of the masonry, the flue liner will also improve the draw of the chimney, make the stove much easier to light, is also easier to clean and if properly fitted and not damaged by incorrect cleaning, will last much longer than 10 years.

By the way, I am a registered and insured installer and have been fitting stoves and liners in France for 15 years.

Good advice regarding 'Credits Impot' but as far as I'm aware it's only on appliances not installation materials.

[Carole]

Thank you all so much for the information. It is all a bit daunting but tomorrow I am off to the local specialist to see what he can do and to give me a quote for all this. At least now I should know what should happen and hopefully just for once, I might get a reasonable deal.

Doesn't money disappear quickly in France, I get quite sick when I see the adverts on Sky for cheap kitchens and furniture. Still they do not have our way of life which makes up for almost everything. Bring on the summer!!

[its cold up here]

hi     I've just joined and appreciated reading your notes on flue liners  Do the forum rules allow me to ask you for a quote I am near Issoire

[Cat]

If you look at the date of the posts, this is quite an old thread. 

If you want a quote from one of the posters, contact them privately by using the PM button below one of their posts.

[Mutiara]

[quote user="LesFlamands"]

[quote user="clarksinfrance"]
 the condensates are very corrosive.
[/quote]

Indeed they are, which is one of the main reasons for fitting a chimney liner. The flexible stainless steel liner with a smooth interior (required by regulations for wood burning appliances) is one of the most cost effective ways of lining an old chimney although I have not seen the correct liner at 22 euros/metre. As well as preventing further degradation of the masonry, the flue liner will also improve the draw of the chimney, make the stove much easier to light, is also easier to clean and if properly fitted and not damaged by incorrect cleaning, will last much longer than 10 years.

By the way, I am a registered and insured installer and have been fitting stoves and liners in France for 15 years.

Good advice regarding 'Credits Impot' but as far as I'm aware it's only on appliances not installation materials.

[/quote]

 

May I ask a question? For the register plate, would this be usually one complete piece with a hole in the centre for the enamel pipe or would the hole have to be two semi circles to facilitate the removal and fitting of the stove enamel pipe to the flexy liner ?

[Clair]

[quote user="Mutiara"]May I ask a question? For the register plate, would this be usually one complete piece with a hole in the centre for the enamel pipe or would the hole have to be two semi circles to facilitate the removal and fitting of the stove enamel pipe to the flexy liner ?[/quote]

See here: http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1185486/ShowPost.aspx

[Le Plombier]

Agree with you LesFlammards

The liners I fit, bois haut rendement, are more like 80 euros per metre

Le Plombier

[bigears]

hi

I've read all the thread and am confused.  My woodburner works fine in my chimney without a liner.  Do I need to fit one by law?  I would need 7 -8 metres and at 80 euros a metre its a lot of brass for a me a retired old fogey.  Is this a gravy train?