free radical Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 what precautions are necessary to protect a holiday home from freezing temperatures and burst pipes during the winter when the property will be mostly empty and unheated ??Will turning off the cold mains supply suffice , does the Chauffe-Eau need to be emptied ??All advice gratefully recieved -thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krusty Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 cor you are early , do you know something about the weather that we dont ? [blink][blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 If they had anything like the mess and hassle and expense I had last winter, [:'(] I don't blame them for starting early[:)]5 burst radiators, 3 shattered taps, 1 well pump cracked, a boiler pipe shattered and goodness knows how many leaky pipes[:(][:(][:(] I will be draining down the heating system and the hot water tank and the well storage tank! Anything else I should be thinking of[blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owens88 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 We never emptied the chauffe-eau or the toilets, even befoire we had the leccy CH. But we did switch off all water.Since we had the CH it is on a frost stat as well, double bubble. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Turning off the mains stops gallons of water running through burst pipes but it offers no protection against the water in the pipes freezing, expanding then bursting joints, taps and pipes. We did drain and also emptied WC cistens, when we had a holiday home. It was cold enough to freeze plumbing in ourappent barn last winter in the Gironde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I used to be quite flipant regarding this freezing issue but after seeing the damage to the rell'ys properties I will do a full drain down.Suggest using Saur's stopcock as addition to any you may have, if yours fail then you have a big water bill, if theirs fails that's their problem. Even flexi pipes to taps burst this year so drain everything just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Guerriere Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 It depends where you are. We are in 50 and have not had any problems (nesrly 20 years) with just turning off at the stopcock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 A problem can be in pipes where there are not draincocks at the lowest level. In these cases, water will remain in the pipe with the potential to freeze and burst the pipe.Better to set the boiler thermostat to a frost setting to that it comes on and raises the temperature to prevent freezing but shuts off at a low temperature thereby no using much fuel but ensuring no costs associated with burst pipes.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 We had significant problems last Hiver.It was most unusual weather however: -15 C for a few days and then stuck beneath freezing for two weeks, according to our immediate neighbours.Normally, I drain down as uch of the cold and hot water pipes: and flush the loos. This Winter I forgot the main loo!Oooops!The cistern suffered a hairline crack and finally "let go" when Mrs GS was safely ensconced late one evening! Mainly since the water would have frozen from the top down: and then expanded sideways exerting enormous pressure on the china sides and bottom.I don't drain down the Ballon: however I do have a 200 Watt tube heater placed directly underneath which comes on at 12.00 midnight and goes off at 08.00AM via Heures Creuse.I do have drain down taps fitted on both cold and hot feeds to the bathroom and the Ballon itself: not ideal since the French Plombiere didn't follow my very carefully prepared and simple diagram! Do they ever?My prescription is as follows:Flush all Loos after mains water turned off:Splash some anti-freeze into the Loo basins:Drain down as much as possible:Turn all taps "On". - to allow expansion.If not localised heating is fitted to the Ballon, then drain it down.None of this would have prevented the problems I experienced with the cabin type shower!See here: The core reason being that the thermostatic bit is beneath the "On-Off" and distribution valve (The bit that diverts the water either to the shower head or the massage sprays either side).That's basically very poor design and nothing I can rectify.C'est la vie ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
free radical Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 Thanks for all the replies so far , I guess until we know what temperatures to expect we shall have to implement as many of the suggestions as possible .The house is stone built and situated on the borders of Deux Sevres and Charente Maritime , the only heating is a log burner which wont help a lot if we are not there!! The French Meteo site shows average winter lows for Poiters area of minus 2 or 3 but I expect lower than that in the rural surroundings .Has anyone experience of plastic tubing for water pipes ( as opposed to copper ) I presume it will be more resistant to bursting as it allows for more expansion ?Also , I dont understand the reference to Saur's stopcock , what is this and where is it fitted ?Thanks again for all the inputs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 [quote user="teapot"]Even flexi pipes to taps burst this year so drain everything just in case.[/quote]Doesn't look like it makes too much difference[blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 [quote]Also , I dont understand the reference to Saur's stopcock , what is this and where is it fitted ?[/quote]Your water supplier's main stopcock.In the road or at the kerb immediately outside your property. It will isolate the main water supply from your property.The point being made is if the pipe bursts on "Your" side of the meter, then you could be responsible for thousands of leaking litres! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 [quote user="free radical"]Has anyone experience of plastic tubing for water pipes ( as opposed to copper ) I presume it will be more resistant to bursting as it allows for more expansion ?[/quote]My experience was my pied à terre in England laid up for winter, water switched off but not drained down and crucially taps not left open.I had over 10 ruptures of the 2 year old copper pipe including sections inside insulated cloisons, en revanche the pipework under the floor and totally exposed to the elements (its a wooden chalet) was intact despite not being insulated as luckily I had used rigid PE tube there.I know what I will use in future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Streason Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 [quote user="free radical"]The house is stone built and situated on the borders of Deux Sevres and Charente Maritime , the only heating is a log burner which wont help a lot if we are not there!! The French Meteo site shows average winter lows for Poiters area of minus 2 or 3 but I expect lower than that in the rural surroundings .[/quote]You must be quite close to me. I purchased in Feb this year and the property although furnished has evidently survived the last 3 winters unopened with nothing more than the water being turned off at the mains. It is also stone and has very little insulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 You are relatively close to the ocean travel even a hundred kilometres East and you would be amazed a how cold and for how long France can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Plombier Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Agree with most of the advice you have been givenI would question what anti freeze might do to a fosse, salt is a better optionLast winter was bad, caused mainly by short very cold spells, this seems to be the worst weather for burstsIn the end turn off the water, open the taps and hope for the bestIt is very difficult to completely drain water systemsThe chauffe eau should be ok as it is insulatedMost important is the heating if you have itHeating should always be left switched on frost protection, or about 8C if you have no frost protection, then you should only be at risk of a burst on an outside supply If you have heating always leave the electric supply switched on or the boiler and controls will not workLe Plombier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The main points seem to have been covered, but one piece of advice seems to be missing..... pay a caretaker to check your house whilst you are away, then even if there is a burst it can be dealt with and damage can be limited.In very cold weather we always do extra visits to 'our' houses, and also just as importantly when the weather improves - so that any thawed-out bursts are dealt with.It costs our clients sweeties compared to the cost of the damage if a leak and the subsequent mouldering mildewing mess are left for several weeks/months.We also 'run up' the water system several days in advance of a client's arrival so that we have time to fix any problems, calling out a plumber if nec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Le P: I didn't suggest automotive antifreeze!Bad expression probably: mea culpa!Can be anything which lowers the point at which water freezes, which is basically any non-active (Inert) substance .Personally, I wouldn't use salt, since this is liable to kill off the bacteria which a fosse depends on for its unique anaeorobic bacterial function.A simple way is to stick an 'umble tennis ball in the basin: the integrity of the U-Tube is preserved - thus retaining the "Pong Trap": and anecodotally, the ball compresses allowing the water to expand around it.All that said, the naughty water can always be sucked out of the loo, when the house is reopened come Spring.OK: a little will penetrate around he bend, but a few copious flushings and a hood dose of (e.g.) Eparcyl should soon sort that out!Polly: one slight problem. fuites tend to be nasty little devils and lurk away hidden from sight! A normal visual inspection is rarely enough!Life not being simple -tell me about it! - these days particularly with French spec copper tube which rarely splits as the wall thickness is much higher, leaks and bursts come from "Blown" soldered joints, where the amalgum process has been inferior, the bond has been broken, the fitting has perhaps moved 1/32" or in metric terms, .3 m.m. and the awful truth is not revealed until the main stopcock is turned on, whereupon, a mini-Niagara breaks out!For those who leave their heating on, permanently, then the mains water must be on also, or the system will not function; with modern boiler detectors.Leaks can happen even where the temp is maintained above freezing.Help is at hand!There are electro-mechanical leak devices which monitor standing water pressure: a large leak and the pressure drops and the valve isolates the system. Our new Siemens washer has one: it connects between the feed tap and the machine and if a leak happens in the flexible feed pipe to the device, it instantly isolates the feed.The newer technologies are developing "Mapped" isolating valves which retain usage data and "Know" that little or no water is consumed in Winter, from past experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Plombier Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 GluestickCouple of points on your postWhilst French spec copper tube is thicker wall than English spec the tube wall will split with a frozen pipe rather than the joint separateThat is provided the joint has been made properly in the first place, whether it be hard or soft solderFor those who leave their heating on permenantly the mains water supply should still be turned off and the electric supply switched onThe vast majority of heating systems here are sealed pressurised systems that require manual topping up of pressure when necessaryThe only exception to this is an atmospheric open vented system in which case I would agree with youThe last thing you want in a freezing situation is the mains water supply turned on as it could be running full belt in your property for days or weeks before it is discoveredModern boilers are pressure sensitive and will shut off the boiler in the event of a pressure loss in a sealed heating systemIt is therefore important, with a sealed system, to ensure you have a stable system pressure and no leaks before you depart for the winterCracked toilet pans and burst chauffe eaus are very rare, burst pipes are commonThe most disastrous results of freezing occurs on heating systems, either due to boiler failure or the owner seeking to save a few pennies by shutting off the heating for the winterI have seen burst radiators and burst boiler shells which makes for very expensive repairsBe lucky, last winter loads of problems, previous two winters not one telephone call to deal with a burst pipeLe Plombier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Agree mainly, Le P; in a rush today far too much going on.I did say, though :[quote]leaks and bursts come from "Blown" soldered joints, where the amalgum process has been inferior, the bond has been broken, the fitting has perhaps moved 1/32" or in metric terms, .3 m.m. and the awful truth is not revealed until the main stopcock is turned on, whereupon, a mini-Niagara breaks out[/quote]I have not suffered one burst as in split copper pipe: all of the - multitudes of! - leaks this year were on joints where the inferior French plombiere obviously didn't know his stuff. And the joints were clearly "Dry".In the greniere, where the hot feed pipe for the kitchen temporarily traverses circa 15 metres, the soffits have not been yet boxed and it must have been as cold as outside (-15 Deg C), since I have re-done every joint chasing built in leaks [:'(], all was OK.If the pipe was of course Phosphor-Copper Brazed - properly - then I would agree that 100% of the time the pipe would normally let go along the lateral manufacturing weld, since part from the minor crystallization of the parent metal along the joint, the brazed joint would enjoy a tensile strength many times higher.Surely, anti-freeze/corrosion inhibitor ought to protect rads, pipes and boiler core in a totally sealed system? Even if off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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