P-D de Rouffignac

An estate agent ('agent immobilier') can only offer an 'estimation' of your property, ie an idea of what it might fetch on the open market in current conditions. It will normally be offered free if you are proposing to offer the agent a mandate to sell, or will be charged at something like 1 per cent of the estimation, with usually a minimum of 300 euros or thereabouts (considerably more than the 50 euros quoted). A formal valuation is carried out either by a professional 'expert immobilier' or 'conseil immobilier' and can be for purposes of inheritance, insurance, mortgaage, audti, taxation, rateable value etc. When arriving at a 'value' for a property various items are taken into consideration in addition to the 'valeur vénal' (market value) and include age, quality of materials used, quality of work including renovation, quality of interior fittings and installation (windows, doors, partitions, electrics, plumbing etc), location, neighbourhood, building density, extent of grounds, access, parking etc. All this requires specific technical knowledge and experience that a run-of-the-mill estate agent is unlikely to possess, which is why no two houses in the same street can ncessarily have the same 'value'. Hope this informaton helps, P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com  

Replying specifically to Belle: I recently sold my apartment (apartment A) in order to buy another (apartment B). I made it clear from the outset that the sale of A depended on my finding a replacement (B) and vice-versa, and the two transactions not only depended on each other but were supposed to happen the same day. In the event I sold apartment A about two weeks before completing the purchase of apartment B, due to a delay in paperwork from the vendor. Technically the purchase could have fallen through at the last minute, leaving me homeless, but everything went through smoothly in the end. I left the proceeds from the sale of apartment A with the notaires (they handled both transactions, which helps) so that the funds were in place for the completion of B. Regarding the ten per cent deposit against the purchase of apartment B, I wrote a cheque for this several weeks earlier but it was held but not cashed by the agents, and on the day of the final signature 100 per cent of the purchase price of apartment B was transferred to the vendor. So it is possible to buy and sell in one move, in circumstances like these, and it helps to have a single notaire involvedd for both transactions, and as noted above make it clear to everyone what's going on, and get their agreement. For example, I stayed in my original apartment (A) for several days after it was sold, by arrangement with its new owners. Hope this helps. P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

I have sent you a PM with some details - P-D de Rouffignac.

The agency where I worked often showed properties to potential buyers that we felt we could trust. Sadly, for the sort of reasons given in this post, we had to revise our ideas and insist that everyone signed a 'bon de visite'. However even if there is no 'documentary evidence' the first agent could provide reasonable proof of introducing a client to a property - collection and sign-out of keys, evidence of having spoken of the visit to office colleagues, evidence of the property's owner, his own word against yours etc. Cases have been won on this basis. In the situation described, you may also be putting the second agent in an awkward position (if indeed he has been informed)., especially if the two agents are members of the same professional association. The second agent will not want to be in the position of being seen to poach a client of another agency and face possible sanctions. Much of this business is based on trust and I feel you should respect that. Ironical that you mention the second agent's links with local builders etc when half the posters on this forum (a) distrust agents in any shape or form, and (b) ditto anyone recommended by them! Sentiments I do not agree with, of course. P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

Are we talking civil war here or simply the sale of a property. Surely it is possible to reach an amicable compromise with all parties, one being that the buyers could sign ahead of the vendor, who can complete the transaction on a later, preferred date. Pulling out of a sale at this stage would be costly and probably subject to legal sanctions - the vendor committed to sell when the compromis de vente was signed. P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

Do not rush to the conclusion that there is anything unusual, illegal, suspicious or dodgy going on here. If the money from the purchaser has not arrived, the notaire may well suggest that the vendors present sign the final act, which will be countersigned, by the buyers or their power of attorney (usually a clerk of the notaire, rather than the notaire him/herself) and then dated (and become legal) when the money finally arrives. I had precisely this situation earlier this week, with all parties present, and the purchase money had not at that point arrived. We were all happy to sign the relevant documents, but not date them nor hand over keys. In the event, about an hour into the signing process, the notaire checked again and the money had duly arrived (transferred the previous Thursday from a French bank but delayed over the weekend). Regarding money received from the purchaser and due to be handed over to the vendor, this might be delayed slightly due to the requirement to settle taxes, apportion between several owners, pay off a loan or mortgage etc. Once again this is normal practice and not designed to make life difficult. I have on two occasions got a cheque the same day and on another left the money in the notaire's secure account against the purchase of the property I was buying on completion of the sale of the first. It is a question of understanding the system or being accompanied by someone who does. P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

Personally I have never found it particularly helpful to employ a second notaire or (UK based) solicitor when completing a French property transaction, either for myself or when advising clients/friends. Unless they are local to the area where you are intending to buy a property, at best they can only translate/interpret the documentation based on secondhand information, supplied by the parties to the transaction and their advisors. What I have found most useful is on-the-spot advice from local people - a firm of notaires I use has five partners who are the grandchildren of the original founders (the practice was established 50 years ago) and two firms of estate agents, likewise each founded over 50 years ago, and until recently still managed by the original owners. The sort of assistance I have had locally from these people includes a realistic assessment of local property values (how else do you know you are paying a fair price?) and in a recent transaction, complex negotiation with the DDE and the mairie over planning consents (and wording the appropriate suspensive clauses as a result). Another advantage is speed - a recent transaction took just six weeks and two days to complete, even though we had a three week delay by the vendor returning the signed compromis, due a to German postal strike. This was particularly important for the buyers who had sold up in the UK and were living in a rented villa during their property search. I can understand that uncertainty and lack of familiarity with the French legal system may influence some people to seek 'external' advice but I would question its value for the above reasons. Peter-Danton de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

Reading through this thread, I wonder if you lot are the same people that whinge about terrorists and illegal immigrants seemingly being allowed unchallenged into Britain. Now, I know I am not a terrorist and I hope the little old lady sitting next to me on a Ryanair flight is not packing an Uzi. But who's to tell? Terrorists don't put that on their passport under occupation nor have I seen anyone wearing a T-shirt labelled 'illegal immigrant' (doubtless someone will round to it though). So when I am frisked next time at Stansted or Dover, I will just grin and bear it. I have to admit that travelling back through Stansted recently I made a complete idiot of myself carrying both bottled water and my mobile phone in my hand luggage by mistake, and the staff could not have been more pleasant when I apologised profusely for the oversight. As someone has said, you get back what you give out. We eventually all had a laugh about my friend's Arsenal T-shirt which he insisted was 'for a friend'! P-D de Rouffignac

I have just introduced an English couple in course of buying a property in France to a local French notaire. They are married with one child and have an adopted child from a previous marriage of one of the partners. The notaire has advised a change of matrimonial regime to 'communauté universel' as on the death of one partner, the other has more freedom - for example, to sell the property without asking the children (the inheritors) for permission. This might happen if, for example, the surviving spouse did not wish to continue living in France on his/her own for family or health reasons. On the death of the surviving partner, the children would inherit the French property (if unsold of course) 50/50 automatically under French inheritance law. The reason the documents have to be signed in France (a 'downside' according to one poster) is that a change of marriage regime is considered in French law to be an 'acte solonnel' (solemn act) and requires the advice of the acting notaire. The cost is quite reasonable but extra to the transaction costs if done at the time of purchase (it can be done later of course). To explain its implications a notaire described it in English 'as a sort of legal fiction, in which the surviving partner is deemed to have been the original and sole owner from the beginning'.  I hope this helps. P-D de Rouffignac MA LLM www.francemediterraneanproperty.com    

I am in the middle of a transaction involving English buyers who signed a compromis nearly three weeks ago, paid a deposit to the notaire, and we are still waiting for the countersigned document to be returned by the vendor. She assures us it was sent from Germany a week ago, but despite pressure from the agent, the notaire and myself, nothing has arrived as of today. Even if it arrives this week, it must be then sent by registered post to the buyers (here in France) so they can enjoy their right of seven days 'cooling off', during which time the transaction is virtually on hold until this period has passed. So it will be four weeks since they signed the compromis before the notaire can officially start work on preparing the 'acte finale'. Fortunately I got the buyers in to see the notaire early on to start work on their change of marriage regime but even here one copy birth certificate arrived from the UK after a week, another has 'got lost in the post' and another is on its way. Meanwhile the buyers are collecting estimates for building work but cannot give a firm start date to anyone, which is very frustrating all round, as they languish in their tiny rented holiday villa desperate to move in as quickly as possible. I mention as this as buyers/sellers are often quick to blame the notaire for delays in completing the transaction process, but these are so often due to events outside their control. We are hoping that Madame the Vendor can be persuaded to sign a power of attorney so we will hopefully avoid any further delays at the time of signing the 'acte finale'. Fingers crossed! P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

Further to my earlier reply, there is a resport in my local paper this morning about a situation in the hospital centre in Perpignan, where a clique of five nursing staff have been making life a misery for more than 80 others, who have finally broken their silence and started a complaint of 'harcèlement moral'. The work doctor is also involved, plus the police, and a major internal enquiry has begun. It shows once again what damage a small group can do especially where the victims suffer in silence until someon has the courage to file a complaint. Incidents included intimidation, insults, damage to vehicles, stealing others' uniforms, intercepting mail and payslips, malicious phone calls and rumour mongering. If this can happen among the so-called caring professions it can happen anywhere. Victims must act - you may be surprised how many others join you, once your own situation comes to light. Once again, I hope this helps. Do hang in there and take positive action along the lines I suggested earlier. P-D de Rouffignac.    

Regulations vary between communes regarding issues such as height of boundary walls, garden buildings etc and it is best to consult the planning department of your mairie - they are there to help residents/voters. If you have any doubts about tackling this yourselves, could you not get a landscape gardener to draw up plans and present them to the planning department on your behalf? P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

First of all, my deepest sympathy with what you are going through. I'd like to offer the following practical advice - I studied the French employment tribunal system as part of my UK law degree and was helpfully advised by a number of French lawyers in this area. 1. "Harcèlement morale" is well recognised under French law and has recently been highlighted in a number of cases involving a large computer company and one of the care manufacturers where some employees were driven to suicide.  All working in new concrete and glass offices in seemingly ideal conditions. In serious cases involving for example damage to your health or your having to leave the job as a result of the pressures (known as constructive dismissal, as in English law), high damages are awarded. 2. If your company is large enough, first approaches could include the personnel department, the "comité d'entreprise", your union affiliated to the CGT, and/or the "work doctor". Confrontations with line managers are rarely helpful when they are part of the problem.   3. As advised already, you must document everying. One of the lawyers advising me offered these words of wisdom "In a typical French court it is a dossier that is on trial not a person". A case will stand or fall on the quality of the (written) evidence. 4. I would seek early advice from an "avocat" specialising in employment law. He/she will advise you how to conduct yourself at each stage and will eventually represent you in the "conseil de prud'hommes" which is the equivalent of the English employment tribunal. You can present your own case as in Britain but invariably a French "avocat" is used, as you can be up against highly skilled company lawyers acting for the employer. 5. Once your case is started in the "conseil de prud'hommes"  there is a procedure for "conciliation", which however is rarely used and most cases go to trial. The panel of (usually four) judges are elected lay people drawn from both employer and employee backgrounds. According to my French colleagues, most cases are won by the employee - and employers know this. As a result, even taking the first steps can sometimes lead to a resolution of the problem or at least your being taken seriously. I do hope this info may be of help to you. P-D de Rouffignac

Am I missing something here, but surely the VENDOR was responsible for employing the surveyor to carry out the pre-sale checks. So any "contract" - and by inference any breach of contract - must surely be between the vendor and the surveyor. As buyer I don't think you have a case against the surveyor if you did not contract him to do the survey. P-D de Rouffignac

You should be seeking - and paying for - professional advice! But here is some basic information. (1) Licences - Check with the local mairie. There may in fact be a policy of not issuing any more local licences in the area, until an existing establishment closes. In my town, the socialist mayor has decided 'there are too many bars' at present. (2) That said, existing licences change hands for large sums of money. Check your local press for a start. (3) Licences are in Categories 1 to 4 depending on what kind of drinks you wish to sell (beer, wine, spirits) and whether your establishment is to be classified as a bar (drinks without food) or a restaurant etc. (4) A local wholesale supplier (brassseur) may be able to help you out with information, advice, influence, knowledge of licences for sale, and even assistance with installing equipment (provided you contract with them as suppliers). (5) Cafe terraces are usually let out by the mairie if they involve a public highway, or in the case you describe perhaps by the co-ownership (syndic) that owns the common parts. Seriously, do take professional advice from someone in the area, check local restaurants to see who is busy or not (and why) and do your sums carefully before you spend a single hard earned euro. Best of luck, P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

Hello. In order to establish that your French home is your main and principle residence it is generally only necessary to show proof you have paid income tax - or at least completed an income tax return - in France, either through employment, self-employment or indeed if you are a pensioner. When I recently changed apartments, this is all the notaire required of me. There is in theory no restriction on selling soon after you have moved in, but if you were to do it several times, the tax authorites might start questioning that you are doing this as a "business" i.e. buying, doing-up and moving on. Hope this helps. P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

Re 'taking a house off the market' - I think it depends on what you mean exactly by this term. The normal procedure is for a (potential) buyer to make a written offer at or below the asking price. Once this is agreed by the seller - who countersigns the offer document to confirm his acceptance - the house should normally be withdrawn from the market, as the offer/acceptance can be legally enforceable in French courts. Rare, but it may happen. Hence it is unwise for buyers to make more than one offer, just to buy time and reserve several properties while they think about it; and for sellers to accept several offers, for similar reasons. In theory there is no reason why the property could not be shown to other interested parties, if it is explained that the property is 'under offer' - and there is always a possibility that the 'sale' may fall through before or even after a compromis de vente is signed (due, perhaps, to the buyer's inability to secure funds). In order to avoid wasting everybody's time, buyers who make an offer should be in a position to prove they have funds available or a loan agreed in principle, and buyers will not normally countersign an offer document which does not contain such assurances. Both sides will at this stage also have a reasonably clear idea of a completion date, appointment of a notaire to handle the transaction, and any likely suspensive clauses (such as subject to satisfactory survey etc) that are to be written into the compromis. If either side is uncerain at this stage best to get these points clarified before anyone signs or countersigns anything. I have known situations in which buyers and/or sellers have been obliged to complete a purchase/sale after changing their minds, initial deposits have been forfeited, agents fees have had to be paid and transactions held up for several months while the Courts decide the issues.  So once again my advice to both sides is to proceed with caution and only if you are serious about selling or buying. P-D de Rouffignac  

I think it depends on what kind of 'advice' you are seeking. Anyone - UK solicitor, second notaire etc - who is remote from the transaction, geographically or through language, can at best only read through the documents provided by the French notaire in charge of the transaction. This is no way to advise a buyer whether the property has been valued correctly, there are possible planning consents in the pipeline, there are noisy neighbours/works/anticipated building projects nearby etc etc. Buyers are better off listening to their French immobilier (yes, there are honest ones around and in my region two firms that have been in business for 50 years) and the notaire on the ground (again in my region the notarial firm of five partners are now the grandchildren of the original founders and have attended meetings with me at the mairie and planning departments, as well as face to face with the property seller). Best to understand and make use of the French system - it is there to protect you. P-D de Rouffignac

I am afraid what you are reporting is another example of bodged DIY renovation - I always try to avoid properties 'renovated' by their owners when advising client-buyers; and second, failure to take advice or have a survey, especially in the case of a recent renovation, even when undertaken by a professional. I know this is no consolation after the event but I hope serves as a reminder to others. It is not a peculiarly French phenomenon either, as someone has implied - it can happen anywhere. P-D de Rouffignac

Re scooby's point (mountain guide). I think that illustrates part of the problem. As the book I quoted points out, you can call yourself an 'expert in....' or 'consultant in.......' virtually any sphere of activity, without licensing, registration or proof of qualifications. To be fair, the book does add that your success or failure in any domain will ultimately depend on how good you are it. I am particularly interested in 'counselling' in France (I trained correctly for three years in the UK as something to do in my eventual old age) but the French do not understand the word, preferring 'psychotherapist'. But at the moment this term can be used by anyone (!) although some of the medical professions (psychiatrists etc) are petitioning to have the word restricted to certain qualified practitioners only. The more general point I have been trying to make is that the authorities in France are over-the-top when it comes to regulating skilled trades but there are enormous gaps in the controls over many other occupations, where incompetence could cause harm. P-D de Rouffignac

If I could widen the debate a bit, what surprises me in France is that while many of the skilled trades mentioned so far in this discussion are highly regulated, when it comes to the so-called 'professions libérales' there appears to be a raft of totally un-regulated occupations that it my view could cause more damage than, say, a badly applied coat of paint or a leaking water tap. I give some examples taken from a book called 'Créer son activitié en solo' by Véronique Chambaud. Included in her list of unregulated activities are the following (out of nearly 300 suggestions): Financial analyst - arbitrator - astrologer (!) - chiropractor - coach - family counsellor - patent expert - business advisor (all types) - financial advisor (all types) - image consultant - computer expert - recruitment advisor - security consultant - interior designer - trainer - geologist - graphologist (someone's career could depend on your decision!) - mountain guide - consulting engineer (!) - construction overseer - masseur - naturopath - psycho-analyst - reflexologist - sexual therapist - sophrologist - clayvoyant. I have taken a widen selection from the list but I suggest that any or all of the above could seriously affect your phsycial, psychological or material wellbeing if not properly qualified. P-D de Rouffignac  

Okay, I can do you a fancy photograph - but will you thank me if later you discover that the property has zero insulation, never gets the sun, is plagued by noisy holidaymakers, or that the syndic has voted for urgent repairs in the next few weeks (three blocks in my area are each having to spend 70,000 euros to bring the lifts up to norms - an average contribution of 2000+ euros per apartment owner)? Even if you are planning to invest/let to tenants rather than live in the property yourself, these things can affect the viability of your purchase. P-D de Rouffignac

Having re-read (and contributed to) this thread I am starting to ask myself why potential buyers are so hung-up about photographs of properties. I have dealt a lot in apartments, mainly on the Mediterranean coast and port areas near where I live, and frankly an empty or sparsely furnished conrete cube does not look good, however artistically presented. I have seen some real horrors transformed by their new owners who had the wit and imagination to visualise what could be done. (I have recently bought a wreck and done it up, as readers of French Property News will know). I am always dismayed when the camera is produced by the potential buyer and realise at this point there is no sale going to be made today. There are other more important points to note - aspect, absence/presence of sun, sound/thermal insulation, safety, access, parking, neighbours, year-round or fulltime occupancy of the building (for 9 months of the year I am virtually alone in my apartment block of 80 dwellings - some people might find that scary) and so on. There is absolutely no substitute for local knowledge and advice, and a personal visit. No amount of photographs can tell you what you really need to know. P-D de Rouffignac

Yes, I agree there is tax to pay especially on inheritances outside the family, but it was a lesser evil than dying intestate and the whole lot going to the State if I outlived my brother(s), and in any event I wanted to nominate my own inheritor. In some situations such as this, one could purchase a property using a limited company so that on the death of one of the directors/owners, no sale takes place, the company continues to own a property in its name. There may be tax implications but it is a possible solution - but professional advice advisable. P-D de Rouffignac  

What your are being told seems to describe the situation when you die (both of you) without having made a will. I am single with no dependants, so I have no preferred "hereditaries" to use the French term (ie. direct descendants/children, or ascendants/living parents). If I did not make a will and in the absence of these two categories, my estate would go 'sideways' to any surviving brothers or sisters, and thereon to their dependants. As I have made a will, I have left everything to a friend totally outside the family, as I am entitled to do this under French law and advices by my notaire. Your own situation seems similar, so can I suggest you double check. You can write a simple handwritten will ('olographe') in French for less than 100 euros (for it to be registered and retained by the notaire) but a notaire will help you with the form of words; or a typewitten, witnessed version for around 300 euros. In any event do ask a notaire to at least clarify the situation and put your minds at rest. Hope this helps. P-D de Rouffignac