Renovating a Ruin Over Time

[Chancer]

I have been ruining a renovation over time, am I on the right thread?

[Cendrillon]

Probably but yours seems to be generating wealth!

[Jewell]

The trouble is, so many postings end up in this same place regardless of the original post. It's a bit tiring to read, it derails from the original subject, and the same old arguments taking over every new thread is really quite off-putting to newcomers. It makes the forum feel cliquey. At least, to me. It's not that the point is wrong or invaluable. It's that it doesn't need to be hammered into everyone's head on every single post.

[David Powell]

Hi, appreciate this is a bit old now, but I am doing exactly that JR. I have the services of a good architect locally that speaks both English and French, and made sure I met most of the neighbors and got a positive and friendly relationship in place, and act as my eyes. Its not easy of course doing things remotely, and i do try to get over at least 2 or 3 times a year and use a caravan in the garden. In my case this is a retirement dream, so know it will take me a while, but I am planning all the key structural stuff to be completed using local builders while i am remote, and then when I have semi retired I will spend the time finishing it off. Again as others have said - its for pleasure and my eventual home - rather than for any profit. Bon Chance if you do or have taken the plunge.

[mint]

A word of caution, not to you, DP, as you have started and I wouldn't want to throw a wet blanket over your plans......

It isn't always wise to plan too much or too well in advance.  Don't forget age advances in tandem with your plans and, by the time you are ready to put in the finishing touches, the project may already be unsuitable.

I have met a few who have bought beautiful but old buildings and spent time, effort and money on them and they haven't all managed to live in them after all.  Could be something happy like having grandchildren, and people wanting voluntarily to lose money and abandon projects, sometimes fully completed, but more often than not trying to offload them as "works in progress".  Then there have been some whose health has failed, whose money has been exhausted, whose partners have been gone (for different reasons) and they are left to rue the day they ever thought everything would be straightforward.

Don't mean to be discouraging but do just be careful with plans and always, always have money and resources set aside for contingencies.

[David Powell]

Good advice Mint!

I think the question to ask yourself, if you are the OP, is whether this is an interest or a passion.

I always think you will always find a way to deliver on a passion - but if its an an interest - meh! - as soon as something more interesting comes up its in danger of being sidelined.

All that said - sitting in the garden of my wreck on a summers day with a cold glass of wine....

[mint]

DP, you have the answer right there:  PASSION[:D]

Not about renovating, but whenever someone asks about learning French, I give them the answer you have provided.  I tell them you must have Passion and, if you don't have that, you will only succeed to a point.

Some people say, well, I learned the basics or I learned enough to get by but, without Passion, they will never take their learning any further.

Enjoy your renovation, DP, and above all, STAY PASSIONATE!

[La Sansonniere]

Hmmm... Well it is feasible, so I guess in that sense it is also realistic, but you really need to know what you are letting yourself in for

I bought cheap... and I mean REALLY Cheap

A stone Faced farmhouse with the remaining three walls being cob above the first 3ft. It was in Normandy so it had the obligatory rusty corrugated roof. Woodworm had claimed all the internal timbers except (Thankfully) for the main roof beams, so there were no floors to the first floor or attic... or stairs.

The property had been unoccupied for around 15years, had a dirt floor, perished electrical cabling, no gas connection and no septic tank or mains sewers.

The garden was over-run with saplings left unchallenged that had subsequently become young trees... oh and the nettles and thorny brambles..good times !!!

The glazing had fallen out of the rotten wooden window frames and the door was just a few scabby scraps of wood with more holes in it than a swiss cheese, so there were mice, and bats and every other small critter you could imagine. There was no heating and just one solitary cold water tap on a bracket in what we fondly called "the kitchen"

There was no insulation and nowhere cosy and warm to retreat to when we visited in winter or spring, so we ended up buying some old caravans... one for cooking in and for use as a project office and the other van for sleeping in and storing clothes and equipment.

This was 2006

At the time I bought it, I had absolutely no idea how much it would cost to renovate. This was a good thing as ignorance is most definitely bliss. If I had truly understood what work was involved and what costs I would face I would have realised really quickly that it would never be a sound financial investment or a quick project

So there is the baseline... ruins are cheap for a reason. The word ruin has two meanings...

(NOUN)The houses themselves are ruins..

(VERB) These houses can ruin you... Financially and mentally

I travelled the relatively short 350mile distance from NW England to Normandy over 50 times in 12 years Winter, Spring and Autumn; each time with a trailer load of scrounged materials and bargain out-of-season purchases... like loft insulation purchased in summer and gardening equipment purchased in winter. Savings like these can be massively helpful, but still, there is a major cost in time and money if you are doing this kind of project in stages and fragments. You lose the first and last day of any visit opening up the site, unloading the trailer and getting your tools out, with the reverse taking up the last day.

You have to time your trips to co-incide with contractor availability and local council office opening times.

In the summer it is not unusual to find that timber yards and builders merchants might be closed for 2weeks or even a month for local/national holidays. Shops and council offices also seem to work to a different clock and calendar than you may be used to.

There is beaurocracy & red tape everywhere you turn and for non-french speakers, communication can be tough when dealing with agents, notaires, builders, timber yards and specialist trades. Nothing in the DIY stores is familiar when compared with "back Home" Different plumbing fittings, electrical installation regulations and design, different paint, different window styles and unusual architecture to get your head around

So there are some of the challenges. You will have your own budget and may be able to plough substantial funds into the work from the outset. You merely have to select good, honest reliable tradesmen or appoint a project manager who will want his pound of flesh and will still need to be "handled"

For me it has been 12yrs of being totally consumed by a project which I absolutely love. There is no greater satisfaction than seeing progress and achieving things on your own that you had no idea you were capable of. I have replaced a roof, built staircases, created stud partition rooms, put steel beams and lintels in, fitted doors and windows and installed off grid electricity for power and lights. I have a log burner and 5 of the 9 rooms are now complete. I love my french escape

Like anywhere, they can be money pits if you don't research properly. You may not make a single penny when it ever comes to selling the place and years of your life may be lost/dedicated to the challenge but if you find somewhere you love, these things are irrelevant

It has been a frustrating, joyful, stressful and satisfying journey so far. I created a website so you can get an idea of the project. We have done a lot more since I last updated it but there are still many more years of expenses to follow

http://normandydreams.webs.com/

Good luck

lee

[mint]

A quick word of thanks, LS, for an enjoyable to read post, full of useful info and tips and probably the definitive explanation of "Renovating a Ruin"![:D]

[Patf]

Yes, an enjoyable post. And an answer to someone on here (no names [;-)]) who is always decrying the great pleasure that many people have in changing something useless into something useful.

On a much smaller scale we (or husband) did the same to our current house.

[alittlebitfrench]

That must be me then PATF....lol.

I don't decry the pleasure I just make the point that renovating a wreck is the MOST EXPENSIVE way to move to France. I just worry people get fooled into thinking it is the cheapest way of moving to France. I bemoan those British types that sell these projects in France for profit because they are the only ones who will not lose money.

ALBF is getting old now and can't spend his time trying to educate his fellow countrymen.

Anyway, I have spent the last 3 months trying to find a house where we live for some French relatives. With a population of 25,000 you expect someone at some stage to sell a fecking house !!!....nope nadda. I don't care if it is a renovation or not.

If I go out 30 kms they are ten a penny at half the price. Imagine that.

We have up the budget to 300 k and still can't find anything.

What do I know....lol

[BritinBretagne]

I know renovating a ruin is out of your personal experience but that doesn't mean it's impossible or even expensive. I bought my current home a long time ago as a ruin with no services. It cost about half as much as the car I was driving at the time. I got the basics sorted, new roof, water and electricity then over the years I used it as a holiday home doing a fair bit of work myself when I could and using local artisans when I could not. As said, it is now my home, a lovely, characterful, spacious, comfortable home. Over the years I spent a bit on my project but now the house is worth ten times as much as I paid for it and about twice my total investment. Seems a good result.

[Théière]

Well done Lee, just a question, you had a light weight tin roof before but now its heavy weight tiles and  parpang gable ends. Have you done anything to strengthen the cob walls to take the extra weight?

[Chancer]

My place is being valued soon, I reckon it will be worth 20 times what I paid for it which is pretty irrelevant anyway, how about 5-6 times what its total cost (purchase + reno) has been or that it has already repaid me every penny of my investment in the last 2 years?

 

Now even if I am completely ga-ga with my mental valuation I can just remain here a little longer, but having researched the sale prices of immeubles de rapport on the impots-gouv.fr site I am fairly confident, indeed had I bought a few of the ones that have been sold in recent years, borrowing the money at 2% they would have brought in 5 times that amount on long term rentals.

 

There is still value to be created in France which is different to saying money to be made but one goes hand in hand with the other.

[Patf]

In my view it doesn't matter at all whether it's worth more or less than when you started. Unless you're doing it as a way of earning a living.

It's the enjoyment of the change that matters.

But not many people think like that nowadays [:(]

[BritinBretagne]

[quote user="Patf"]In my view it doesn't matter at all whether it's worth more or less than when you started. Unless you're doing it as a way of earning a living.

It's the enjoyment of the change that matters.

But not many people think like that nowadays [:(]

[/quote]

I agree with you 100%. I just get fed up with the resident winder upper going on and on about how his view on France is the only one.

[andyh4]

I am also in the same camp as Patf and BinB for perhaps slightly different reasons. We have renovated two adjacent buildings and now have what for us is an ideal place to live and enjoy our lives. I doubt that if we sold we would fully recoup our costs, but we have no plans to move and sell up, so that becomes entirely immaterial.

I strongly doubt that we could have built new to give us the same accommodation and facilities any cheaper.

[La Sansonniere]

The tin roof was not the original roof. A fair percentage of rural homes in Normandy suffered catastrophic roof damage due to storms and the government funded "temporary" roofing assistance hence the many rusty tin roofs... I believe this goes back to the late 1980's?. We found some of the original slates from the previous roof scattered around the garden and as was common at the time of construction, the roof was also battened all over prior to the slates going on, so it originally took a lot of weight.

The roof structure consists of a solid 4ft thick central wall front to back which goes right up to the roof. This is stone all the way up to the first floor.

There are two beautiful oak cruck trusses spaced out at midpoints between the central wall and the gable ends. The bottoms of each truss are jointed into what I can only describe as trees (one of which still has bark on it) which span front to back, so each truss is in effect a solid fixed triangle

We straightened up the gables which now go straight up to the apex so there is more strength in the vertical and we gained more headroom in the attic allowing us to convert the space into a bedroom and a cinema room/den.

There is also a 10" thick oak ring beam running right around the top of the cob walls and the front stone elevation. All other joists and purlins and beams were renewed, such that only the cruck trusses remain from the original roof structure and they are around 10" by 5", so they are not going anywhere !!

The "design" we came up with in the converted attic spaces means that only those nice architectural oak trusses are visible which means we have a feature in each room and we can also keep an eye on their condition over time. We had a very experienced stonemason and builder in who checked all of our plans and gave us advice about which walls we could open up and where we might need to add additional strength etc which was very re-assuring

Cob is an extremely strong load bearing medium but as you mention it doesn't have much "sideways" or torsional strength

All the external walls are over 3ft thick so i'm reasonably happy with the structural integrity... or at least I WAS until you asked me LOL :-(

I will shortly be spending my fourth consecutive Christmas alone at the house doing more work, so the passion and desire are still there, for me at least...My wife has sensibly decided that she would prefer to be warm in the UK with central heating, furniture, television, mince pies and sherry

Cheers

Lee

[La Sansonniere]

When people ask me how its going with the project, my answer is usually "yeah great... I think we are probably 80% done... just need around 10k more and it will be all finished in a year or two"

I have been saying this for around eight years

[alittlebitfrench]

What the Patf, Andy and Brit brigade are not taking into account is that I am probably 30 years younger and like everyone else of our age with kids and pensions to think about we have no intention of losing money on a property.

When we took on our first renovation (rural) I was 30 with no kids, no internet and very wet behind the ears. The reason we took on a renovation was because we could not afford anything else. The house cost us 180 k and we had a mortgage. We sold at 300 k....but we were very very lucky because soon after the market collapsed. Had we not sold at that time our lives would be very different to what they are today. We would be in a mess.

Rural renovations are great for the passion but in most cases you will lose money if you have to move. OK, that might not be the case in British expat areas of France which I have never been to and therefore do not know the market conditions or type of buyer. However, over the last 15 years renovations costs have exploded so I don't see how it can be done.

There are not many bargains left in France and most houses are overpriced. Even the shells valued at 10 k. The property market is a nightmare.

Chancer, the market has change a lot from when you first bought your faulty towers.

So, take on a renovation if it is your passion but remember it is not the cheapest way of buying a house. If there is a potential that you may have to move again....don't do it.

[BritinBretagne]

You are way out in your age estimate. If I wanted to have a new build house in my area their prices start at more than my house is worth. Why would I want to exchange my beautiful home for a characterless box that costs twice the price that I paid for mine? My home is a home for life and after that one of my children might want to keep it as a holiday home. It's resale value is pretty irrelevant, it's paid for and mine. I grew up in the era when I was able to 'make' huge amounts by moving upmarket through buying estate houses in the SE of England but all that actually meant was that I ended up with a vastly overpriced box that had cost me a lot less than many of my neighbours had paid for theirs. Give me my stone house in France any day.

[andyh4]

Speaking for myself I fully understand that not everyone is the same and has the same needs and motivations. Your needs and desires are very different from my own.

But this seems to be a point that you have absolutely no grasp of. You bang on about not buying renovation projects. They will loose you money. What we are saying they may lose us money - or maybe not - but making money is not our motivation.

As I wrote above my motivation is having property that meets my immediate and foreseeable future needs. This is something that buying a box on a lotissement or a flat in a vibrant city would fall far short of.

If at some time in the (hopefully) distant future there is a need to move, I suspect that the monetary value of the property will pale into insignificance against the problems that would cause such a move.

[Hoddy]

"my motivation is having property that meets my immediate and foreseeable future needs"

Our motivation was exactly the same. The house we bought was not exactly a ruin, but we only renovated it to the level of a fairly basic, but comfortable holiday home. We have used it as a base for exploring other parts of France and our four children and eight grandchildren have enjoyed country holidays and improved their French at the same time. If you start talking about the value of the house that would have to be included as would the massive amounts of garden produce we have eaten and bought home. I think that trying to include that in any sale price would be an impossible task.

[alittlebitfrench]

@ BinB, I read in another thread that you wanted to move to the Limousin ....for a cheaper house or something ????

[alittlebitfrench]

@ andyh4

You make some very fine points.....and to be fair I do share them.

We are helping two elderly French relatives (well they are not that old) find a place and their mindset is very different.

It would be so much easier if they preferred a stone house in the middle of nowhere in Brittany. lol.