Unfair Taxe D' Habitation Surcharge

[Jon 1]

Last summer we personally handed a letter to the Tresorerie informing them of our change of address in the UK.  This was to avoid any problems with the T d H document going to the wrong address.

Despite this we never received it, and I eventually had to request a duplicate via e-mail.  When I received the duplicate I could not pay it online as I had done in the previous year, as it said I was past the date for online payment.  They had made the cut off date in November rather than December.  I then had to transfer money to my bank and have the bank pay it which meant it was not paid until the end of December.

I have now received a request for a 10% surcharge which I think is most unfair considering they never sent the T d H document and then changed the goal posts concerning payment dates online for 2006.

Should I pay it and argue the case when we return in late spring?

Refuse to pay it and argue the case?

Forget it and pay up?

Has anyone any experience or knowledge of such a problem, and the possible outcomes?

 

 

 

[Dick Smith]

Not the same as your problem, exactly, Jon, but I did once receive two TV licence demands in the same year, in the days when that was a seperate charge. I paid up (sent them a cheque) and wrote explaining that I had already paid, and they wrote back apologising snd sending back the second cheque. All very simple and amicable - as they may well be if you explain the circumstances to them in your case.

[Renaud]

Jon, they are fonctionaires, you will never win. You might, in fact, bring a little sunshine into their lives by trying.

[Coco]

I'd pay asap and argue the case later or you may incur even more charges.  I recently received a demand for extra taxe d'habitation for my business for 2006, which I closed down in 2003 (never had a demand for 03,04 or 05!)  When I tried explaining to the man in the Tresor Public that I shouldn't need to pay because the business no longer existed he told me I would be best to pay and then argue the case with them afterwards and get my money refunded, otherwise I would incur the 10% surcharge, which I may not get back (it was 14th December!).

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="Renaud"]Jon, they are fonctionaires, you will never win. You might, in fact, bring a little sunshine into their lives by trying.[/quote]

I did - what is the point of a post like this when Jon wants some help?

[Bob T]

I too had mine sent to the UK after living here for 2 years. When I managed to get a copy from the Hotel d'Impots, I went straight to the Tresor Public and paid it. 3 weeks later I got a demand for 10% as it was was paid late. Took this to the Tresor Public and tried to explain in broken French and the nice lady tore it up and said no problem.

You can win if you are prepared to try.

[Will]

If you explain the circumstances then the surcharge will usually be knocked off. Don't rely on them speaking English, though some may. Best to get a French speaker to help.

[Dick Smith]

I got some help from the forum with my letter - might be worth asking.

[Cassis]

I had a similar experience to BobT but it was Taxe Foncière. 

The Trésor and I could not understand why for 2 consecutive years I had not received the original TF demand but had received the reminders with the 10% surcharge slapped on.  Not, that is, until on the second occasion they printed off a copy of the original demands which showed they had been sent to our defunct UK address by the Centre d'Impots.  The CdI had the wrong address for our taxe fonciere but the correct one for all the other myriad taxes.  The Trésor, however, had our correct address here in France and as they sent out the reminders we got those, but not the original demands for Taxe Fonciere from the CdI. 

The Trésor said ignore the 10% surcharge and accepted a cheque for the original amount demanded.  They even apologised on behalf of their colleagues at the CdI.

[RumziGal]

Write them a letter, Jon, with a cheque for the original amount, saying that you recieved the original demand late, and you think that the surcharge is unfair. 

Usually works.  I think as long as you show willing and all that.  [;-)] 

[Baz]

I had the same problem when I change my UK address and this went on for some time even though I had handed in a letter at the Tressoire Public and Mairee. Knowing that some thing had gone wrong as I did receive either of the 2 tax bills, I had to telephone for the amount so avoided the penalty charge.

The solution is as follows, the Tressorie Public are only responsible for receiving payment and do not send out the bills. In order to change your address you must contact the Centre d'Impots as they are the only people who can make the alteration to your address. Once all is in order maybe setting up DD would be the safest method for the future.

Baz

 

[Cassis]

Baz describes it correctly.  The Centre d'Impôts sends out the bills, the Trésor Public collects payment and sends out reminders.  The two do not share address databases.  When we found out that the CdI had duff info a phone call sorted out the problem.

We still haven't figured out why the CdI had our correct address for some bills but not for others.

[Teamedup]

I can only feel sympathy for you. I had to chase these people up last autumn as they had changed my address, just like that. No one would admit to anything, but in the end I managed to get onto the people who make out the bills and they after some discussion changed it back. However, they assured me that I must have moved at some point as they had a change of address, and initially telling them that I could prove that I had been in the house since 1983 didn't seem to wash, it all came out though when questioned them a bit more, apparently this can happen, all that needs to happen is for them or part of their operation be informed of such a change by just about 'anyone' who is slightly official and they will change it.

Which begs the question why won't they change people's addresses when they write to them and do it properly.

 

In fact the first people I spoke to denied that the bill I had in my hands had other than my proper address on it and it was only when I 'menaced' to call in within the next hour to show them that I didn't, that they passed the book, well passed me along the line.

Fortunately we pay our bills by prelevement, so it wasn't a problem with payments which was fortunate.

 

This all seems very badly organised and dangerous.

 

[KathyC]

Our TH bill was sent to our UK address correctly, except that they sent it to the Isle of Man rather than the Isle of Wight, causing considerable delay (so much for postcodes!). I wrote back - in French- explaining that it was as if they'd sent a letter for someone in Corsica to someone on l'Isle d'Oloron. They seem to have accepted the cheque without late charges and I hope that my letter amused someone. Knowing the mistakes I make in writing French, they're probably still rolling round the floor about it!

[Tillergirl]

This is going to seem like a really stupid question, but when is TdH usually due as we havent recieved ours.  My husband and I arrived in France sept 2005.

We recieved our Tax Fonciere facture last saturday and incurred a 10% surcharge of late payment as it had been sent to our old english address first.

Is this likely to have happened to the Td H aswell if so, what do I do. [8-)]  I informed the local tresoir of that our French address is our only address now when I paid in person on Monday.

Thanks for your time.

Sarah

[Cassis]

We always get ours about the same time.  I think that is the case everywhere, give or take a month.  If you go to the Trésor where you pay your bills they will be able to tell you if you have an outstanding bill for Taxe d'Habitation for 2006 and print off a copy of the original 2006 bills (Hab and Fonc) sent out by the Centre d'Impôts so you can check the address they are being sent to.  If it is the wrong address explain and they may let you off the surcharge (not obliged to let you off if you have never actually told the Centre d'Impôts to change it - but worth asking).  If the address is wrong for either bill then inform the Centre d'Impôts, preferably in writing.

[Dick Smith]

If you have a French bank account, set up a prélevement payment, and then you won't have the problem again.

[Danny]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]If you have a French bank account, set up a prélevement payment, and then you won't have the problem again.
[/quote]

Each bill we receive is accompanied by a leaflet inviting us to pay by prélevement but there is no way that I want to allow them just to take the money, given how incompetent (and belligerent even when they have made errors) the various depts can be as the previous posts suggest.

Danny

 

[Andyphilpott]

I agree with Dick - I have done my by prelevement since 2000 and never a problem. Maybe others have had monumental .... ups with this and can post otherwise but I don't stay awake at night worrying about any bills. If they get it wrong I have no doubt that it can be corrected if I speak nicely to them.

Andy

[BJSLIV]

Paid all of our phone, edf, tax bills for nearly fifteen years. No problem. they come in plenty of time for you to query them if there is a problem.

Estimated edf bills, over payments refunded in days when i send them the real readings.

The only problem I have ever had with a French bill was a one-off  "Planning Tax" bill that they sent to the wrong address when we were absent.

I paid the base amount, but contested the fine.

No response, just a fine added to the fine for non-payment!

Its so much easier to pay by DD.

 

[Loiseau]

[quote user="Jon"]

... I then had to transfer money to my bank and have the bank pay it which meant it was not paid until the end of December.

[/quote]

I realise that you have been used to paying the taxe on line, but one really needs to keep a decent float in a French bank account for such contingencies, so that you can send a French cheque over quickly if necessary. 

Having had bills languish unpaid in UK or France because I was in the opposite country at the time, I now have all the French services and taxes on prélèvement.  There was a hiccup with the T de H, or t'other, at one time, but it got sorted out and they paid me back OK.

I am sure they expect you to pay the lot, and argue the toss later.  This has come up about the TV licence which is now automatically added on.  You are supposed to pay it, even if you don't have a TV, and then claim it back afterwards.

Angela

[Danny]

[quote user="Loiseau"]

... I  am sure they expect you to pay the lot, and argue the toss later.  This has come up about the TV licence which is now automatically added on.  You are supposed to pay it, even if you don't have a TV, and then claim it back afterwards.

[/quote]

That may be what some expect but if a tax or charge is levied unjustly or by mistake or just through incompetence then it is just taken from your account whether you like it or not. Or even if you have the money or not. I would rather be in control. Its not exactly the case with the tv licence either - you should have been asked if you do not have tv equipment or not. Maybe they just forgot to ask... life is hard in your average branch of French officialdom. 2 hour lunches take their toll.

Danny

[BJSLIV]

You are given the opportunity  to notify the absence of a TV on the annual  income tax return.

When the collection system was changed they wrote to non income tax payers, asking whether there was a set in the property..

[Dick Smith]

I certainly got a letter. I have never had a problem with prélèvement, and the only problem I did have with local taxes (TV licence in the old days) was understandable and sorted quickly and efficiently.

[zeb]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

You are given the opportunity to notify the absence of a TV on the annual income tax return.

When the collection system was changed they wrote to non income tax payers, asking whether there was a set in the property..

[/quote]

...and it's also on the Taxe d'Habitation bill. If you contest it, you just write and tell them you haven't got TV equipment and they send you an updated bill.

Yes, we pay everything by prelevement; taxes, EDF, FT, TPS, cotisations, car/house insurances etc etc and never had a problem. We need to spread our bills as most things seem to hit us in November/December and it makes sense.

PS That's a typical British insult isn't it; assuming that the French are incompetent due to having a 2 hour lunch break? Why are you in France if you don't approve of French cultural differences?