Revenue tax as a side issue to the current healthcare debate

[Russethouse]

Is that a one off payment or an annual amount ?

If a French person is on SMIC how does that compare ?

[cooperlola]

It is an annual amount, and is fixed throughout the Union and applies to all the E forms - 106/9/21.  Hence the word "reciprocal".  The UK is pretty rare in issuing E106s although they are European documents.  This is because it is based upon any residual temporary incapacity benefit which a person has :

"How they work :
> Form E106 is issued where a non-employed person transfers their  
> residence to another EC country, but has 'residual' entitlement to  
> Incapacity Benefit - Short Term (IBST). 'Residual' entitlement means 
>  that the contributions conditions governing the award of Incapacity 
>  Benefit are satisfied and if the customer had remained in the UK 
> and  claimed benefit that benefit would be payable. The duration of 
> E106  cover equates to the duration of IBST had the person claimed 
> the  benefit.
>
> E106 entitlement is awarded in line with 'Benefit Years' which run  
> from the first Sunday of January to the Saturday prior to the first  
> Sunday of January the following year.  We investigate the National  
> Insurance (NI) contributions record of the 3 complete tax years  
> prior to the Benefit Year in which a person leaves the UK. If those  
> tax years show sufficient NI contributions E106 entitlement is given 
>  to the end of the Benefit Year in which the person leaves the UK.   
> When entitlement is established this way we would look to extend  
> this by considering contributions paid in later tax years.  I have  
> set out below an example to illustrate this.
>
> A person leaves the UK on 1 July 2007 to reside in another EC  
> country.  The person worked for an employer paying earnings related  
> Class 1 NI contributions and ceased working on 30 June 2007. The 3  
> complete tax years prior to the current Benefit Year are those  
> running from 6 April 2003 to 5 April 2006. Sufficient NI  
> contributions were paid in those tax years giving initial  
> entitlement to 5 January 2008 (end of the current Benefit Year).  
> Sufficient NI contributions have also been paid in the 2006/2007 tax 
>  year to extend the E106 cover to the end of the next Benefit Year  
> which is 3 January 2009.  If, in addition, the person had earned  
> enough (approximately £4,350) to pay sufficient NI contributions  
> from 6 April 2007 to finishing work on 30 June 2007 the E106 cover  
> would extend to 2 January 2010. This would give total entitlement  
> from 1 July 2007 to 2 January 2010.  It would not be possible to  
> extend the cover beyond this point as NI contributions would need to 
>  be paid in the next tax year, which would not be possible as the  
> person would by then have finished working and would have left the UK.
>
> Forms E106 are issued under Article 19.1(a) of EC Regulation 1408/71."

[Russethouse]

So groslard - are you now saying that you are going to discriminate toward pensioners to force ALL of them to live in the country they contributed in ?

 

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="groslard"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

"All pensioners are subsidised by those currently paying taxes and contributions, regardless of whether they hold an E121"

But those who stay in the UK are only a cost to the NHS if they are ill; those who have taken the personal decision to come to France, and benefit from what is arguably a better service, are expecting the UK to cough up over 3000 euros a year in subsiding the costs of their decision.

I suspect that statistics will show that people of pensionable age are more likely to require some form of treatment, so your 'only a cost to the NHS if they are ill' argument is weak...

"Charges paid by the French (or anyone else) during their working lives are used to fund the heath service available at the time, not to provide cover for when they retire."

Exactly my point about contributions paid previously in the UK. They were for that time

That doesn't square with your previous comment "once by the French who have paid much larger charges during their working lives to have the present service"....

"Unlike the DWP contributions for E121 holders, their 8% of pension does not go anywhere near covering their potential healthcare costs, so they are also being effectively subsidised by the working population. "

It is always the case that contributions might not cover potential healthcare costs, but the difference is that a French pensioner pays a contribution, and a UK one doesn't

But they are still being subsidised - which is what you appear to object to as a matter of principal...

"As far as younger French people subsidising their mutualle - don't we all benefit from them, retired French included?"

The difference is that retired French paid into their Mutuelle when they were young, and so have earned the right to benefit now . UK pensioners didn't pay.

Again that contradicts your earlier statement about "contributions paid previously in the UK. They were for that time".  You can't have it both ways.......

"That's the whole purpose of such mutually based funding systems."

The purpose is that you pay into a scheme when you can, and are helped when you need it. Not that you help yourself after all the hard part has been done by other people

So you pay NI contributions when you are working so that you'll receive a pension and other benefits (eg E121) when you retire...

 

 

[/quote][/quote]

[groslard]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

So groslard - are you now saying that you are going to discriminate toward pensioners to force ALL of them to live in the country they contributed in ?

 

[/quote]

Nothing to do with forcing people where to live.

It's about having the same system with the same benefits, but also the same obligations..

French people pay all their working lives into the Health system, then continue after retirement.

UK pensioners don't.

My argument is that either

a)both  French and UK nationals should pay social security contributions in their own countries all their lives (the E 121 handles the transfer of funds)

or

b) UK nationals should not expect parity with the French.

[Boiling a frog]

I would appreciate Groslard pointing me in the direction of information which says that once a French person is of state retirement age and in receipt of their pension they then pay 8%  of their income(less allowances) plus if they wish  top up assurance and if they move to another country to live they receive an E121 but continue to pay 8% of their income(less allowance) and if they wish top up assurance, or in fact if he can provide us with similar information for all the other EU countries ie pensioners moving to another EU country,what do they pay in their home country to continue to benifit from health care in their new country of residence.

I am requesting this information as the thrust of Groslards arguement is that only UK citizens get health care via a free E121 when they go to reside in another EU country .

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

Please give us details of your campaign groslard, web site address, somewhere we can read your full agenda, someway of reading your leaflets or pamphlets so we can fully understand where you're coming from with it or is this a one issue, one person campaign?

[groslard]

I remind you that under the E121 the 'home' nation pays to the 'host'

French pensioners pay CSG and CRDS on their gross pension if they are fiscally resident in France, and covered by one of the 'régimes' of Health Insurance.

(Vous êtes concerné par le

prélèvement de la CSG CRDS si vous êtes domicilié fiscalement en France et à

la charge d’un régime obligatoire français d’assurance maladie.)

If they are living  abroad and are still covered by the French (as with an E 121) they no longer pay CSG and CRDS, but then pay  contributions to the Sécurité  Sociale.

(Vous êtes concerné par le prélèvement de la cotisation maladie :

si vous êtes domicilié

fiscalement hors de France et que vous relevez à titre obligatoire d’un

régime français d’assurance maladie)

That is to say that France is the source of their Health cover, as with an E 121

Either way they pay.

Source: L'Assurance Retraite

[Scooby]

[quote user="Panda "][quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Bugbear"]

But why would anyone right in the head even contemplate moving to America.

Land of the Free,      LOL

[/quote]

I have the same thoughts about people moving to France - why would anyone want to?

Liberté égalité fraternité  LOL

[/quote]

But Scooby no one in there right mind would buy a house in the US (or post on a Living US Forum for that matter), if they felt so negativly about it would they? Come on what is your story, you have only ever posted sweeping statements of an anti-France nature but have said you have had a house for years here, that is really odd to me.  In what way does this forum interest you, I am truly interested in why someone would seemingly waste their time in this way.

[/quote]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/14/1100827/ShowPost.aspx#1100827.  The reason I have spent more time on here recently is because I have been on long term sick leave recovering from a serious accident.  Tbh - If I was going to move abroad permanently to improve my lifestyle / standard of living then I would choose New Zealand - definitely not France.

[Panda]

[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Panda "][quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Bugbear"]

But why would anyone right in the head even contemplate moving to America.

Land of the Free,      LOL

[/quote]

I have the same thoughts about people moving to France - why would anyone want to?

Liberté égalité fraternité  LOL
[/quote]

But Scooby no one in there right mind would buy a house in the US (or post on a Living US Forum for that matter), if they felt so negativly about it would they? Come on what is your story, you have only ever posted sweeping statements of an anti-France nature but have said you have had a house for years here, that is really odd to me.  In what way does this forum interest you, I am truly interested in why someone would seemingly waste their time in this way.

[/quote]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/14/1100827/ShowPost.aspx#1100827.  The reason I have spent more time on here recently is because I have been on long term sick leave recovering from a serious accident.  Tbh - If I was going to move abroad permanently to improve my lifestyle / standard of living then I would choose New Zealand - definitely not France.

[/quote]

Lets hope then for your sake and ours that you are soon back at work ![:D]  In the meantime here's a forum for you to pass some time on www.justlanded.com/english/new_zealand which may bring out more positivity in you!

[AnOther]

[quote user="Scooby"]Tbh - If I was going to move abroad permanently to improve my lifestyle / standard of living then I would choose New Zealand - definitely not France. [/quote]

I'm with you there Scooby. NZ always was my 1st choice too but unfortunately, because of kids etc. a step too far for 'er indoors, plus I still need to work in UK for another maybe 3 years so not practical from that point of view either [:(]

In time though who knows [:D][:D][:D]

[Weedon]

I happily paid in my NI contributions for the best part of 45 years accepting that it went towards paying for someone elses health care wherever they came from.  Luckily for me I personally didn't require much, if anything, in the way of health care, for all of those years.   I came to France knowing that when I reached pensionable age I would be covered by an E121, but in the meantime would have to pay into the French system and take out a Mutuelle should I elect to do so.

They were the regulations at the time and I accepted them, as I have done with most laws and regulations for most of my life.

In general, normal people don't go looking for a free ride and whilst they may complain, pay their taxes safe in the knowledge that they are doing their bit.

Having been a member of this forum for more than 5 years I notice that every so often some wally brings up the subject of, brits/expats/immigrants.....who gives a stuff what they are called...getting free health treatment.

This current debate brings to mind something that Winston Churchill said "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

[cooperlola]

That Churchill chap could turn a handsome phrase, Weedon.  I can spot several threads at the moment where it would be apposite.[:)]

[Cat]

Yes indeed, it must be the time of year, or something...

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Cat"]

Yes indeed, it must be the time of year, or something...

[/quote]Do you mods have any hair left?

[Russethouse]

Yes, all grey now [;-)]

[mint]

Also, I believe that Cat wears a tin hat whenever the flak gets really serious.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Also, I believe that Cat wears a tin hat whenever the flak gets really serious.

[/quote]

and breaks the glass to get at the cigarettes......................[:D]

[Clair]

I've heard she's also pretty good with the pea-shooter [Www]