Trouble at Calais

[PaulT]

Norman, the only problem that France has whilst they are temporarily in France whilst they wait to get in to UK where they will be permanently - cannot send them back to whence they came as they have no papers.

[Pierre ZFP]

Looks like it's getting even worse with migrants now trying to storm a ferry.  Surely it will come to a head soon?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29057709

[YCCMB]

I admit to being somewhat confused by this. The mayor of Calais would like Britain to contribute to the cost of providing some sort of help for the immigrants in Calais, and to the cost of strengthening security at the port.

Are there any figures to show how much support the UK receives from France to cover the cost of the many who successfully get through?

Seems the French would like the UK to underwrite a double whammy....paying to help keep illegal immigrants out as well as paying to support many of the ones who are successful.

[Chancer]

I dont see your reasoning, if the UK stopped paying to support the "successful" ones then the problem would go away immediately and the French especially the Calaisians would be delighted.

I think that what she is going to do is build Sangatte 2 some distance away, throw out the British customs posts from the port and make them return to British soil, that way she can lay on shuttle buses again but in one direction only, the successful one towards the port.

I am 100% behind her and am just glad that I fortuitously decided to but a Eurotunnel frequent traveller carnet this year.

[YCCMB]

The telling point,Chancer, is that the Mayor of Calais, when threatening to block the port to make her point, said "I know that this is illegal". It seems that France is quite happy to continue ignoring some of the basic legalities in order to make a point and to put pressure on the UK to bear the cost (or part of it) of dealing with Calais' problem.

Trouble is, the UK is, and in my opinion (before the wrath of Norman descends) quite rightly, at least prepared to act legally and responsibly once immigrants reach the UK, and to abide by all the various conventions by helping them. It may be unpalatable to many, but in spite of everything, and whether people believe that Britain is the Promised Land or not, the vast majority of immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are treated fairly and with respect.

Now, it seems, Calais want the UK to start that process before people even reach the UK. Having dismantled Sangatte, where at least there was a central holding point and some sort of organisation in place, albeit not the most satisfactory, they made a bad situation infinitely worse, and now they want UK funding to rebuild what they've already destroyed once over.

[PaulT]

Surely, the UK is the victim in all of this - illegals trying to enter. So now the Mayor of Calais wants to punish the victim!!!!

[EuroTrash]

This is probably not pc to post about but there used to be a term 'jail bait' that was used for underage girls who to all intents and purposes appeared to be asking for it, and then when they got it, acted the victim and screamed blue murder and got the chap prosecuted.

I see a glimmer of a parallel here.

There's victims that are totally blameless and do nothing to bring it on themselves, and then there's victims that could do a lot more to prevent themselves turning into victims.

[Théière]

Wasn't the original issue that people wanting asylum etc must settle in the first country? so that's France's problem and if they don't like the rules then they must go back and get the EU policy redrafted, after all they helped draft the first versions which have proved so poor so maybe they can get it right this time.

Just trying to move the problem to a different member state isn't the answer and expecting us to pay for it as others have said.  France should take these people or any other state that they pass through, a couple of weeks time England could be invaded by Scottish migrants so we can't take any more.

[nomoss]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]This is probably not pc to post about but there used to be a term 'jail bait' that was used for underage girls who to all intents and purposes appeared to be asking for it, and then when they got it, acted the victim and screamed blue murder and got the chap prosecuted.

I see a glimmer of a parallel here.

There's victims that are totally blameless and do nothing to bring it on themselves, and then there's victims that could do a lot more to prevent themselves turning into victims.[/quote]

Trying to figure out what on earth this has to do with immigrants in Calais[8-)]

[EuroTrash]

"Trying to figure out what on earth this has to do with immigrants in Calais"

It was in response to PaulT's post, which was directly related to whether it was right to shove the blame onto the UK since he perceives the UK as the 'victim'.

[EuroTrash]

"Wasn't the original issue that people wanting asylum etc must settle in the first country? so that's France's problem and if they don't like the rules then they must go back and get the EU policy redrafted, after all they helped draft the first versions which have proved so poor so maybe they can get it right this time."

But these people don't want asylum in France (France probably wasn't the first EU country they landed in, in any case). What they want is to get themselves to the UK by hook or by crook - and there is no rule on how to deal with that because what they are doing is contrary to the rules.

[NormanH]

Wasn't the original issue that people wanting asylum etc must settle in the first country? so that's France's problem

I doubt that many of those at Calais arrived in France without passing through other countries, so if the question  is where they first landed  why is it France's problem?

Does the UK expect to sit back and let the rest of Europe, geographically closer to the countries in question act as a cordon sanitaire?

And in what sense can a country be a 'victim'  of people wanting to live in it? I can't understand the concept.

[Théière]

Then least the text is agreed in principle so lots travel via North Africa others via Italy, Germany. What's the situation there?

[idun]

NH said:  Does the UK expect to sit back and let the rest of Europe, geographically closer to the countries in question act as a cordon sanitaire?

Why shouldn't the UK expect just that?

There are rules and regulations on all sorts of scales made by people whom, it feels like haven't got a clue as to how 'ordinary' people live or how devious others can be to get attain their goal. We have a natural boundary and I am glad of it..........and France and Italy and Spain and whereever else should deal with their own frontiers instead of giving people, what appears from my point of view, 'free passage'.

It is a good job we have that little moat called English Channel or La Manche, otherwise we really would all be speaking german. Maybe history will show we got that wrong and it would have been a better option than eventually speaking some arabic language! I really am sisped off all this at the moment. Believe me life can be hard enough in France and the UK for young people, especially when they are seeking employment and as there are not enough jobs for those already resident, WHY would we want anyone else who should be sorting their own countries out, in the UK or France. I do not want them!

[PaulT]

Norman asks 'And in what sense can a country be a 'victim' of people wanting to live in it? I can't understand the concept.'

Norman, no problem in people wanting to live in a country. You may want to live in the USA BUT book yourself a flight to the USA and then tell the immigration person 'I want to live in the USA'. You will then find yourself on a flight back to France.

The problem and the UK becoming a victim is when those it does not want, i.e. apply through the normal channels for a visa to live in the UK and it will be refused decide they will just enter the UK illegally. Therefore, the UK has people, who will probably working on the black - Indian and Chinese restaurants and casual farm labouring are some of the places they work until an immigration raid takes place.

I suppose it would be like me wanting to live in your home - no problem at this stage, but if I came and squatted in your home would you not feel a victim?

[EuroTrash]

And if PaulT set up camp in Norman's neighbours' garden while he was watching and waiting for his chance to get into Norman's property - well I wonder how the neighbours would feel about that ;) Would they see Norman as a victim and sympathise with him, or would they resent being inconvenienced by something that was really nothing to do with them?

[NormanH]

As ET implies the parallel is not one of  me being  a victim of squatters (because in fact the people at Calais are not yet in the UK).

It is as if I thought that I were  the victim simply because they want to come to my place, when in fact the people suffering  are my neighbours who already are being squatted.

Yet I tell my neighbour that it is their fault because someone else at the end of the street let them in...

[YCCMB]

So, Norman, what IS your solution? You seem very certain that the problem is the UK's to solve, despite France, Italy, Spain and any number of other countries having declined to take responsibility when the opportunity has arisen.

I really can't see how or why the fact of wanting to illegally enter another country gives anyone any particular rights. As others have said, it totally undermines the point of having border controls or visas, etc. It is (or should be) recognised that the majority of these people have no right to enter the UK, nor indeed have they any rights to enter any of the other countries through which they've travelled (Schengen agreement notwithstanding).

It seems that the only response being offered to the problem is by those saying that because these people "want" to come to the UK, then it's all the UK's fault....but that's not a solution, it's just a cop-out.

[PaulT]

Ah but Norman it is the first country that they come to that they should apply for asylum. Therefore, they should be applying to your neighbour to live in their house and it is nothing to do with you.

[NormanH]

Not my immediate neighbour (in this parallel, France), but the first neighbour (who may have been one of several others)

This is just a detail, but I am defending France (which has the problem because it happens to have the Channel which provides a natural barrier) against the argument that this is a problem which has nothing to do with the UK.

It is a problem for all of Europe, and for the moment the UK is part of it, and shouldn't just hide behind a geographical accident.

[idun]

I am wondering what sort of country I would now be living in IF there was a simple land crossing and I do not like the idea of it.

Strange isn't it, how La Belle France is supposed to be such a 'great' place to live and yet these people head to just about the closest point to the UK to get out of it, instead of dispersing within the huge country which is France.

I am so glad that the Channel is there.

The benefit system in the UK, well, there are those who mis-use it, I know that, but many who should 'benefit' from it and  do not, even though it is there, it was meant for the british fought for by  the british population and british politicans so that the people of the UK would have a safety net and those living in poverty could be helped. We do, after all have a very good record of giving aid overseas, not only by the government, but the british public have been VERY generous in it's contribution to charities helping out throughout the world.

The benefit system was NEVER meant as a trough for anyone just waltzing in. It does need changing and not a la IDS, who is IMO a disgrace.

And France, well, it should sort itself out. Let the Maire of Calais close the port, why not, if it would get the french government doing something, although I doubt that Hollande would 'care', I don't believe he 'cares' about much, apart from his own comfort and bed partners...... he too is a disgrace!

[PaulT]

Norman, agree it is a problem for Europe so why is France not saying to Italy and Spain 'how about some money after all it was you who let them in'.

Unfortunately, the impression that the UK has streets lined with gold, seems to draw them. Is the answer for the UK to abandon any welfare payments, and would this stop them trying to get to the promised land?

[Théière]

Well as I see it it's Europes fault for expanding the EU membership to countries outside of the real Europe and into the eastern block. Is it that they haven't got the foresight to see that they would become economic migrants? Not our fault that Britain is more attractive and that it's near impossible for an outsider of France to start up a business legally without having been trained in France to think French

[Patf]

Just a word of warning if you're travelling back to UK from France :

An item yesterday on SE news, a woman travelled back with her dogs, got home somewhere in Kent, opened the boot of her car, and a young man climbed out. He must have got in while she was sorting out the papers on her dogs. He said something about being an orphan, and ran off, caught later by police.

So always lock up the car if you have to get out at Customs etc.

[YCCMB]

Thinking about the boot of our car and a long-ago sketch on "Not the Nine O'Clock News", I can imagine there'd just about be room for someone as long as they were triangular and not more than 40cm along any of the sides.