Scots - would you go back ?

[Russethouse]

If you are Scottish: if Scotland was to become independent - would you return ?

[united]

Hi Russethouse,

I am English (I used to be British) there has yet to be a definition of what Indepedence actually means.

There is no over arching view of the end position for all the major institutions of state. A lot of people say a federation of states either on the USA or Australia models, however,  we have no legislation planned about broadly equal treatment of people in England and Scotland. The position of  Wales and Northern Ireland has been ignored. The impact for England would also be significant just looking at the number of  Labour MPs in Scotland so there may be a  change of England's major party.

We have the Scottish Parliament but have had no mention of a second chamber it would seem odd to keep the House of Lords. We have got to the current position by making changes will no end plan. Opinion polls have shown the SNP would win the Scottish Parliament as people vote for 'what is best for Scotland' these elections. The same polls show that the majority of Scots are in favour of the union infact this result has been the same for a number of years.

The SNP have the most seats but the Libdemss have come out against a referendum so a coalition there would require a volte face by one party. Labour & Libdems could form a government but that seems odd with the SNP's majority. There is a lot of horse trading to be done over the next few weeks.

There also has to be an investigation into the the amount of ballot papers spoiled, our very own hanging chads!

I think independence is a way off yet so no decision need to be made about returning yet. 

[cooperlola]

I'm English so have no axe to grind but I've always wondered why anybody in Scotland would want to be ruled from London, anyway.  Having lived all over England, it always amazes me how few people in the South East in particular, have never even been north of the border, let alone lived there.  Why would anybody want to have their decisions made for them by representatives of those who are so out of touch with their needs?  It has to be a question of economics I guess, but does Scotland rely on England, Wales and Northern Ireland for financial support?  The idea of an independent Scotland seems perfectly logical to me. And Alex Salmond seems a better alternative premier than some of the alternatives South of the border!

[Chief]

I am English (used to be british) and without wanting to disrespect anyone, i wish the scots, irish and welsh, could be given total independence from england. Lets see how the countries get on individually. All 4 would struggle, but i think everyone would be happier becuase the english are the only ones who hacve ever done anything bad in this world, and everything horrid that has ever happened to the welsh, irish and scots has never had anything to do with those respective nations. they would all be 1st world nations but for the english, global superpowers, leaders of the world bank, the lots. So lets give it a go. But lets make sure it is total independence, as in absolutely no attachment whatsoever, political, economic, military, borders, visas, war if you trespass etc ...hopefully in time we wil realise we need each other, form a UK NAFTA type agreement, and put the past where it belongs, in the past.

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Russethouse"]If you are Scottish: if Scotland was to become independent - would you return ?[/quote]

Assuming you to be English, Russethouse:   if England were to become independent - would you return?

[Tag]

Don't know about Russetthouse but it is too late for me I fear.

[Anton Redman]

I seem to remember that there was a Lord of the Isles long before there was a King of Scotland.

[Tony F Dordogne]

To me Scottish independence is like Northern Ireland staying in the Union, the Falkland Islanders staying part of GB - ask the whole Union, not just the people in the country involved.

So even if the Scots, Northern Ireland majority or Falkland Islanders wanted to stay part of Britain, if the whole of the Union said no, then the Union is disestablished, as somebody suggested, make them all part of a free trade area. 

Not quite the same with the Falklands but same when nobody asked us, the general populace,  whether we wanted to keep them or to give them back to the country which originally 'owned' them.

If people want their own independent country, not a problem for me, no sense that if it goes wrong they will come back all apologetic.  And who knows, despite everything, there may be the will and aptitude to go it alone.  I cannot see for the life of me why we still have elected MPs for Scotland and Wales sitting in the Commons, especially now the Welsh Assembly has so many new powers and Scotland is bringing in legislation which seems to contradict UK legislation, e.g. uni fees and health care for the elderly.

There are so many Scots in the Westminster Parliament who think they can run a country, try running their own country of birth, not the Union.

Why should MPs from those constituencies who cannot change the laws brought in by their Assemblies unless they are in that Assembly be able to bring in laws in England - perehaps the answer is an English Assembly and the second house being made up of representatives from the four countries of the Union.

And that would seem to be the right time to disestablish the Church as well, sort out another anacronism.

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

There are so many Scots in the Westminster Parliament who think they can run a country, try running their own country of birth, not the Union.

[/quote]

Yeah, send 'em all back where they came from!    There are limits to multiculturalism.

[Tony F Dordogne]

PM Scots born and educated, Home Secretary ditto, Chancellor, ditto, Transport Minister, ditto ..............

Not suggesting repartraiting everybody, just the politicians ..................

[Nelson]

As we now have a Scottish parliament and welsh and Irish assembles, is it not time that we also had an Engish parliament

regards colin

[Danny]

[quote user="Russethouse"]If you are Scottish: if Scotland was to become independent - would you return ?[/quote]

I am Scottish - it would really have no bearing on whether I would like to go back or not.

Danny 

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

 - perehaps the answer is an English Assembly and the second house being made up of representatives from the four countries of the Union.

[/quote]

I think that probably is the answer ..........As far as I know we all pay the same taxes etc, so why should any segment of the nation have a different system for University students or for paying for care in old age?

 

[united]

Russethouse, that was one of the points I was making there is no end plan of how everything works post independence. We may all pay the same tax (at present Scotland can increase tax rates within limits, but has not done ) but no legisaltion in place or proposed to harmonise benefits.

 In some federations of states or countries there is legislation on this point and others have a loose agreements.

Its just a mess in the UK and the thinking similar to Iraq 'oh we never thought about what to do after we invaded'. I am using this as an example of lack of planning rather than suggesting any other parallels!

[Ron Avery]

Is this SNP vote really a vote for independence or a

protest vote against Blai?  The alternative was to vote Tory and no

self respecting Scot would ever do that !!

What amuses me is that the Alex Salmon thinks Scotland can survive with its present level of expenditure per head, its about 20% higher than in England, without Westminster support , all based on oil revenues.

Two points on that:

 a) The oil will run out, so what happens then, does independent Scotland come cap in hand to England?

  b) if I was the Oil companies I would give the Scots the bil for finding it, drilling for it and getting it to the refinery, a cost at the moment not paid for by the Scots.

[Iceni]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

To me Scottish independence is like Northern Ireland staying in the Union, the Falkland Islanders staying part of GB - ask the whole Union, not just the people in the country involved.

[/quote]

Sounds a great idea to me Tony, the 50m or so living in England would have enough voting power to be rid of of Scotland, Wales etc for ever. Such a prospect would ensure I voted again. [6]

John

not

[RumziGal]

What a lovely debate!   Try replacing "Scot" with "Asian" and see how it sounds.  [:)]  

[Russethouse]

Please try to appreciate that we do not have Asian MPs with consituencies in Asia telling us how the English should run their lives, however we do have Scottish MPs with constituencies in Scotland doing just that.

 

[RumziGal]

It's the result of a few hundred years of shared political heritage.  

England spent many centuries trying to get its hands on Scotland.   You  may wonder why they bothered, but they did.  

Sure, split up the Union, I don't see the problem, but really, it's a bit pathetic to present England (50m population compared to Scotland's 5m) as some sort of poor, defenceless victim.   Have some pride!  [:)]  

 

[Motorhead]

An awfull lot of nonsense has been said here!

Ron's idea sounds good to me. Pay the oil companies as government subcontractors, that way the country gets to keep all the profits and not just the tax that is creamed off.

Tony thinks that NI and the Falklands are part of GB when they are most definitely not. NI is UK not GB , not sure if Falklands are UK, they may be something else like a crown possesion or a dominion. The Scottish situation cannot be equated to any other. Scotland joined the union voluntarily so it can leave the union voluntarily.

Now not a lot of people know this but the Scottish and Welsh assemblies have got he haw to do with independence. They were stage one of the Blair project to become president of Europe. English regional assemblies ( geographically broadly in line with the old anglo-saxon kingdoms) were planned to follow but public opinion put the tin lid on that so , in a way, the English have already had the chance to run certain aspects of their lives without the influence of Scots Westminster mps. The reason behind all this is that sooner or later were all going to be living in the United States of Europe. This will happen whether we like it or not, big business stands to make a lot of money from it. The USE will not work if there are a few big countries that can control the rest (or stand up to global capitalism) so they will have to be broken up into bite-size chunks.

Germany is already federal. It wouldn't take much to break up Italy and Spain (the Basques and Catalans would love it). As I said earlier there have already been plans to break up GB and this is probably still on the backburner. Poland is not as homogenous as it seems plus there is nobody actually left there now. That just leaves France which has consistently fought against this idea and central government have done all they can to curb the power of the regions eg abolishing road tax (the money went to the regions). However I have detected detected, at least in some parts of France, public opinion backing regionalisation more and more.

Back to the original question. If Scotland was to be just another member of the USE just like Auvergne or Bavaria or even Mercia there really wouldn't be any point in going back but if there was to be real independence like Norway, for instance, that would be another matter entirely. 

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Motorhead"]

An awfull lot of nonsense has been said here!

[/quote]

Hasn't it just!   And much of it has sounded like Daily Mail soundbites, at the same level as tales of Poles coming in en masse and getting given 3-litre Jaguars and living in palaces for £50 a week while our poor British children can't get on the property ladder.  [+o(]

Motorhead speaks sense. 

 

[Ron Avery]

"Motorhead speaks sense", well about fosses he used to[:D]

Welcome back Motorhead, long time no posts my friend, how is the fosse business?

[Benjamin]

[quote user="RumziGal"][quote user="Motorhead"]

An awfull lot of nonsense has been said here!

[/quote]

 while our poor British children can't get on the property ladder.  [+o(]

[/quote]

Rumzigal

I think you'll find that this bit is actually true. [:P]

[RumziGal]

Been through this before, Benjamin.   My "landlady" is 24.   Left school at 18, got her degree in 3 years, started earning, and here's her house.   21-year-old niece has just bought a house with her boyfriend, no degrees involved anywhere, not even A-levels.  Loads of young people (mid-20s) at work, they've all got their own houses.   

It's probably true of London, but London's a capital city, and you would expect it to be expensive, just as Paris is more expensive than la France Profonde.

[Danny]

[quote user="Motorhead"]

if there was to be real independence like Norway, for instance, that would be another matter entirely. 

[/quote]

How come? Why would that make someone want to return? I don't understand. Surely someone's life is whereever they are and they are not going to uproot themselves like that. Am I missing something here?

Danny