latest on those pesky social contributions, please

[mint]

Now that all tax demands have been sent out and paid in full or in part, is there any movement re these "contributions"?

Has anyone had these varied or, even more incredibly, refunded?

I am only talking to people in receipt of S1s of course.  Would be good to know if there is any development, good or bad.

Parsnips, do you have any news for us please?

[parsnips]

[quote user="mint"]Now that all tax demands have been sent out and paid in full or in part, is there any movement re these "contributions"?

Has anyone had these varied or, even more incredibly, refunded?

I am only talking to people in receipt of S1s of course.  Would be good to know if there is any development, good or bad.

Parsnips, do you have any news for us please?

[/quote]

Hi,

 Here's the latest I have seen;

http://www.toutsurlesimpots.com/restitution-de-csg-crds-le-mode-d-emploi-de-la-dgfip-pour-les-non-residents.html

It still talks only about "non-residents" but as the criteria are non- affiliation to the secu , it should also apply to us S1 holders.

[NormanH]

Have you become America mint? "Pesky" indeed...[:'(]

[mint]

I thought the word was most apt.

They are not as bad as "pestilential" but rather worse than "vexatious" and they ARE troublesome and likely to be difficult to resolve[:D]

[powerdesal]

Our claim for the last two years has been submitted, acknowledged and we have been informed that it has been passed on to some sort of decision making section.

[mint]

Steve, that's very impressive.  Could you please let us know when you have had the decision?

[powerdesal]

I most certainly will, but...........I'm not holding my breath in the hope of a quick result.

[Fittersmate]

Latest info I have seen, dated 20 October 2015 is on

http://www.impots.gouv.fr

which gives links to two press releases.

We sent our request for repayment on 15/09/2015 and subsequently received the Avis de Reception which was dated 16/09/2015. Won't be holding my breath but thought there might have been some sort of acknowledgement of our letter.

[Hereford]

We are in the same position as powerdesal - claim sent in and then three letters (one for each year) saying claim has been forwarded  "higher up".

[johnnyboy]

Hi Mint, been rather busy just lately so have not responded to your request before. Our situation is that we were billed for social contributions for the first time this year due to passing the limit for tax purposes. When we queried it at the office however, the guy agreed that as we are under the S1 system we should not be paying them. I had taken a copy of the regs that Parsnips had kindly posted a while ago, so that helped enormously.

Net result is that our contributions were reduced from just over €2,000 to approx €360 and he said that we should be able to claim the rest back when another clause is added to the bill.

We are very lucky that he speaks really good English, as we both struggle with "legalese" in french!

Hope this helps with your case too.

Johnnyboy

[mint]

JB, how kind of you to come here and tell us your experience.  I am sure that will give us heart to persist[:D]

What with no more WFA, every little helps, as Tesco might say.  It's not so much that, in our case, it's bank interest or share dividends but OH does have a couple of annuities and those are subject to SC.

If you have a minute, would you post which tax office deal with your affairs or at least what departement you live in?

[johnnyboy]

Hi Mint,

We are in the Haute Vienne and use the Bellac office. I would argue that if you are under the S1 system, there should be no charges against any income. As any income was generated under the social system of another country, how can they justify taking money this way? Just my thoughts of course! Although the guy agreed with me, it remains to be seen what happens in future.

Johnnyboy

[Quillan]

Playing devils advocate perhaps some of the EU migrants that have gone to the UK think the same. They paid it at home why do they have to pay again. Don't forget different EU countries have different way of collecting the contributions.

[mint]

Thanks, JB.  Well, at least you have won Round One![:D]  Do you think you could last TWELVE rounds,

[mint]

[quote user="Quillan"]Playing devils advocate perhaps some of the EU migrants that have gone to the UK think the same. They paid it at home why do they have to pay again. Don't forget different EU countries have different way of collecting the contributions.[/quote]

They'd have to be retired, with their equivalent of the S1, wouldn't they?  [geek]

[Quillan]

I was under the impression that the S1 is an EU form, we just get an English language version. Holding an S1 does not mean you can't work like me for example, I have one, I don't draw and OAP pension because I am to young so I work. I am not alone, I know that for a fact.

[mint]

Well, of course, if you're working and earning lolly in France, you'd pay in the normal way.

[idun]

I am now very confused Quillan. Why have you got a UK S1 form? Especially as you say, you work in France.

Also I will add, that that will impact upon your future health care if you remain in France.

ie even if you get a tiny french pension, you will still remain under the french SS regime and the UK would have no responsibility for you, even if you got a full UK pension.

No idea how piggy backing works. And a thought, that even if your wife has an S1 and you piggy back, surely she works with you or has and as you have said, you have been working in France for quite a number of years now.

I know families who have tourist ventures, ie bars, cafe's and gites, where even though only one of the family has declared working there, the URSSAF have insisted that the work done, is actually work and should be registered as such. Left a bloke my son knows and we knew too in a right mess as, every summer, all summer long his mother came to give a hand.

I realise I do not know everything about this subject by a long chalk, but I also know that even when some things are 'possible' or are being allowed for some people, that what is happening with them, is sometimes not actually correct either.

[Quillan]

First question first, I have an S1 because my wife attained pensionable age last year. I use the term work because that's what I would call it however the French tax system calls it a non professional income. Mrs Q is half of that income in France and we are taxed here together.

 

Owning and running a bar, cafe, restaurant and gite is quite a different thing under the French system apparently whereas CdH's and another type of accommodation who's name escapes me are considered non professional and not work. That's the French system, nothing to do with or planned by me.

 

We are technically classed as poor in France and the only thing we pay is CSG. We don't pay tax because it is always under 10 Euros and we don't pay Tax Habitation. The only interaction we have ever had is a visit to the Tresor Public and the Chambers of Commerce. The latter said they were not interested (which we finally got in writing) and the Tresor Public said OK then put your turnover in this box because the Chambers of Commerce do not recognise you as a professional and if things change we will let you know.

 

That was 13 years ago, two years ago because there was a change on the tax form we were summoned to the Tresor Public (they added another box to put the income in) and took the opportunity to verify both verbally and in writing that everything was correct and to carry on.

 

Ever since we arrived in France we have come under CPAM, never paid 'normal' social charges and were told we were entitled to 100% cover although we always thought that was taking the p1ss as we could afford a mutual so never completed the forms, the ones we were sent yet didn't ask for. Until this year we always got a form from CPAM to fill in our income every year and attach all those bits and bobs (birth certificate, marriage certificate, copy of passport, Carte Vital etc, etc) and of course our tax bill. Now as I am classed as non professional and both of us have S1's I see no reason why we should have to pay CSG either. This is what we have always thought was normal in France because it is what the French state has told us.

 

Of course if we started now we could not go into the same system as we are in now and it would be quite different and more expensive as I understand it. We were asked if we wanted to change to the new system but the lady at the Tresor Public said it was not in our interests to do so but that it was our choice. Having had it explained we stuck to the old system. This is why I can never understand why people 'cheat' the system here, it's a very good system and gives you lots of benefits if you do what you are told to do by the system. So all in all as far as I have been instructed to do by both the Chamber of Commerce (which is nothing and I have that in writing) and the Tresor Public, I have just paid out for the extra years for my UK state pension (before somebody closes that loophole) and have an S1 I can't see what impact it has or will have on my healthcare in France.

[Chancer]

Yes its a very good system and but for having had zero income until recently I wish I had joined it earlier, its rather bizzarre that now I have an income and am to me t least comfortably off I no longer pay taxe d'habitation, well 90% of it and by all accounts I should not be paying that.

 

Are you able to split the CDH income and declare it between both yourself and Mrs Q?

[idun]

WOW!!!

And I mean WOW, and I frankly do not understand how LBF can be so generous. When I see 'working' people struggle so, this has amazed me, taken me aback and I shall say no more about it, as it does not seem fair, just or right in any sense of those words.[:(]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Yes its a very good system and but for having had zero income until recently I wish I had joined it earlier, its rather bizzarre that now I have an income and am to me t least comfortably off I no longer pay taxe d'habitation, well 90% of it and by all accounts I should not be paying that.

 

Are you able to split the CDH income and declare it between both yourself and Mrs Q?

[/quote]

 

Yes.

 

Mrs Q's UK government income has to be taxed in the UK, that’s UK law with her old job. We therefore asked the UK tax authorities and her accountant where we should put the income from our rentals in the UK to which they told us it would be silly not to put them in her name on the UK tax form along with her wages. We put that lot in the 'Foreign income' box on the French tax form and attach a P60 from the accountant every year. Because her government pension (now she has retired) also has to be taxed in the UK HMRC said to carry on as we were. So we won't be paying CSG on that lot either anymore if Mint is correct.

[suein56]

Like you OH and I have income and pensions from the UK which are obligatorily taxed in the UK. However we are required by law to put these incomes down on the French tax form to be assessed as part of our global income.

This results in us paying some tax here - and therefore taxe d'hab too, even though our income is considered to be low by French standards.

From this very site's tax facts page :

Everyone

living in France permanently (eg, your main home is here or your

family live here or your centre of economic interest is here) needs

to fill in a French Tax return, even if none of their income is

generated in France. This includes income from pensions, house

rentals, investments and savings, wherever in the world they are

located.

So, like Idun, I am at a loss to understand how your wife's pension and rental income from the UK result in you not paying any tax here at all.

Sue

[Quillan]

[quote user="idun"]WOW!!!

And I mean WOW, and I frankly do not understand how LBF can be so generous. When I see 'working' people struggle so, this has amazed me, taken me aback and I shall say no more about it, as it does not seem fair, just or right in any sense of those words.[:(]
[/quote]

 

Have you ever tried telling the Tresor Public that you think they are wrong and that you expect to pay (or pay more) tax? All they do is get their 'megga book' out, spend 5 minutes shuffling through the pages and tell you they are right and you are wrong accompanied by the "how dare you question me" look. I fully expected to pay tax, it is an occupational hazarded of living and working, you live and work therefore you pay tax and that goes, as far as I can see, in every country in the world. If the French tax authorities refuse to take my money what should I do, stuff what I think is fair in an envelope and drop it in their letter box? I know people struggle in France, particularly the elderly which is why we threw the forms for 100% CPAM cover in the bin, twice. I remember when I asked the mayor where we could put the signs for our B&B he said "Well you pay tax in France so put them where you like" to which I replied "well no actually, I tried but they don't want my money", "well put them where you like anyway" he said. We have also been denounced about three times over the years to both the mayor and the Tresor Public but everything is correct.

 

It is not that I am trying, or have ever tried to avoid paying tax by keeping what I do secret. We pay all our fees to the tourist office and our bed tax through the Tresor Public. We have about 12 signs around on the different roads pointing people to us plus a big one outside our house and a list of all our prices showing we are open all year because we were told that’s what you have to do. We have even had functionaires do a control on us so everyone knows who we are and what we do.

 

But anyway you can't do it like that anymore ever since the Auto entrepreneur system started (as far as I know) and I doubt you can survive for very long especially if you have a mortgage under the old system. As I said those that were on the old system were told they had a choice to carry on or change over, we didn't. So if you have a problem take it up with the French government and ask them to close the loophole because it's not my fault, I just do what I am told.

 

I removed the last bit because it was in answer to Sue's post which she has now deleted.

 

 

[suein56]

[quote user="Quillan"]

 I removed the last bit because it was in answer to Sue's post which she has now deleted.

 [/quote]

Sorry to cause confusion Q, I needed time to rephrase my reply and then our Internet went down and my reply got swallowed and lost.

There is no doubt in my mind that you should be paying tax here but, as you say, you have tried to pay tax and make the tax office see sense, and you have failed.

No wonder the government wants everyone to complete their tax declarations online asap !

Sue