Who needs Uni with on the job training?

[Richard51]

It would be helpful, though, if they could master spelling first....

[NormanH]

The 'failure' is the destruction of any idea of vocation or common good, to the profit of of making selfishness and greed not only acceptable, but praiseworthy.

This credo runs throughout this Forum like an open sewer, and the failure to understand that the rot which has undermined  morality in the UK since Madame "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys" ( true for her manager friends but not for for miners car workers etc.)  is not respectable in France (even if the dwarf is doing his best to corrupt ) is the basis of the asinine misunderstandings and misrepresentations that I suffer from daily when I read the posts of the Anglo centric clowns who seem to have taken over.

Have you noticed the absence of Frenchie, the relative lack of presence of those invaluable posters Clair and 5e?Haes anybody thought that these helpful people might find these diatribes distasteful?

[NormanH]

What is the value of spelling except as a useful piece of snobbery which allows someone with a good visual memory to feel   superior in a sort of fetishistic way to some one less endowed with that particular aptitude but perhaps superior in higher levels of abstract thinking?

[woolybanana]

Common good was always a myth. Thatcher merely told the truth.

The rest of your message, Norman is an insult to the intelligent posters on this forum and hypocricy on your part as you are also a capitalist property owner.

If you include me as one of your Anglos, then sorry, I have not lived there for a very long time and and not really English. Being a clown is my choice as an attention seeker!

Perhaps the various French members you speak of maintain a low profile because they found outsiders' analyses not to their taste.

[Richard51]

[quote user="NormanH"]What is the value of spelling...

[/quote]

A basic communication skill?  It demonstrates the fact that the writer has taken the time to write something that is comprehensible to the reader?

On that second point Norman......

[woolybanana]

[quote user="NormanH"]What is the value of spelling except as a useful piece of snobbery which allows someone with a good visual memory to feel   superior in a sort of fetishistic way to some one less endowed with that particular aptitude but perhaps superior in higher levels of abstract thinking?
[/quote]

Typical of the faulty, left-wing, indulgent attitude which has betrayed British youth for far too long by preaching that expression is all and that it has no discipline. a body is only good with both a flesh and a skeleton; the left forgot this in their urge to smash the middle classes.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Richard51"][quote user="NormanH"]What is the value of spelling...

[/quote]

A basic communication skill?  It demonstrates the fact that the writer has taken the time to write something that is comprehensible to the reader?

On that second point Norman......

[/quote]

So Shakespeare had no communication skills? An interesting point of view.

When and why did the idea of a fixed spelling take root?

As I said above it is simply something easy for one group of people ( who need no 'discipline' because it is easy for them) to assume an arrogant and unjustiifed superiority over others who don't have that  gift.

[woolybanana]

Spelling is a skill which has to be acquired, Norman, and requires discipline. All kids have to do it or they will be handicapped.

Shakespeare's time was different and you know it.

 

[Gluestick]

Oh! The times (Increasingly over the past 15 years) I have heard this one!

Spelling is unimportant: it's communicating which is critical!

You know, on every occasion trendy leftie "Educators" mount such a would-be argument, I have realised it's because they, themselves lack such skills.

I heard this, originally, on grammar: then it was punctuation. Indeed, one secretary in the City tried to tell me "Punctuation makes letters look untidy!"

So spelling is now elitist, huh?

What utter ineffable tosh!

Proper comprehension of the rules of any language are essential for learning: it's a basic need. It is even more critical for communicating.

If the English language in common usage degrades much further, then we'll need the equivalent of Swahili as a lingua franca: well, I already do when trying to understand what many youngsters are gabbling about.

When I hear such nonsense, I recount the true story of the American major shipowner, US lines when they were suffering serious liquidity problems. The Pru in New York had advanced some $100 Million on two hull mortgages: and to secure their lending issued writs on two of US Line's bulk carriers, then docked in NY. And pushed the company into Chapter 13.

The writs were as usual, "Nailed to the Mast"; which meant sticky tape in the modern way.

Problem was, the girlie driving what was then a WP system had expressed the debts as £$10 MIllion, not $100 Million: and US Lines waved their fingers and counter-sued for malicious bankruptcy action and won, 'cos they could rustle up a mere $10 Million.

Just yesterday, I had a 'phone call from a large firm of Chartered Surveyors, my practice have instructed on a project: they were asking to whom certain documents should be presented.

I sent a large envelope to one of the partners, clearly printed right at the top with "For Attention of: Paul XXXXX Esq." And inserted two large documents with a compliment slip.

The caller wanted to know who the enclosures were for!

The dipstick who opened the letter simply discarded the cover and chucked the documents onto the mound of incoming post.

No hope I tell you..............

[NormanH]

"The writes were as usual, "Nailed to the Mast";"

What are The writes "?

Is this anything to do with your statement that

" on every occasion trendy leftie "Educators" mount such a would-be

argument, I have realised it's because they, themselves lack such

skills."?

[Iceni]

One's inability to type should not be confused with one's inability to spell.

John 8:7

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NormanH"]"The writes were as usual, "Nailed to the Mast";"

What are The writes "?

Is this anything to do with your statement that

" on every occasion trendy leftie "Educators" mount such a would-be

argument, I have realised it's because they, themselves lack such

skills."?

[/quote]

From interest, Norman, I m recovering, very slowly, from surgery for Chronic Bi-Lateral Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

Which is why my fingers, occasionally, hit wrong and redundant characters.

I also use Dragon Naturally Speaking for longer documents: however, I'm still in the process of "educating" it.

And, unlike the trendy leftie educators, at least it both listens: and learns.................

[Www]

[woolybanana]

Isn't that caused by too much solo sex as a lad?[6]

[Gluestick]

Apparently not.

Apart from the pre-surgery depilation ([:D]), the oculist appointment was next.

[:$] 

[Chancer]

[quote user="NormanH"]The 'failure' is the destruction of any idea of vocation or common good, to the profit of of making selfishness and greed not only acceptable, but praiseworthy.
This credo runs throughout this Forum like an open sewer, and the failure to understand that the rot which has undermined  morality in the UK since Madame "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys" ( true for her manager friends but not for for miners car workers etc.)  is not respectable in France (even if the dwarf is doing his best to corrupt ) is the basis of the asinine misunderstandings and misrepresentations that I suffer from daily when I read the posts of the Anglo centric clowns who seem to have taken over.

Have you noticed the absence of Frenchie, the relative lack of presence of those invaluable posters Clair and 5e?Haes anybody thought that these helpful people might find these diatribes distasteful?


[/quote]

I think you have hit the nail on the head Norman, the forum is a poorer place without their input.

So it begs the question why do you continue to write them? [Www]

[Quillan]

[quote user="NormanH"]The 'failure' is the destruction of any idea of vocation or common good, to the profit of of making selfishness and greed not only acceptable, but praiseworthy.
This credo runs throughout this Forum like an open sewer, and the failure to understand that the rot which has undermined  morality in the UK since Madame "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys" ( true for her manager friends but not for for miners car workers etc.)  is not respectable in France (even if the dwarf is doing his best to corrupt ) is the basis of the asinine misunderstandings and misrepresentations that I suffer from daily when I read the posts of the Anglo centric clowns who seem to have taken over.

Have you noticed the absence of Frenchie, the relative lack of presence of those invaluable posters Clair and 5e?Haes anybody thought that these helpful people might find these diatribes distasteful?


[/quote]

I have read this and the comments by yourself and the others afterwards. I always held you in relative high esteem, somebody who understood things and looked beyond the obvious at the much larger picture but I see, looking at one or two comments in the above that it's not the case, quite frankly you have disapointed me with some of these stupid comments. Not that you would be worried of course.

You picked on two specific occupations, both of which I have respect for namely miners (I wouldn't like to do that job, dirty and dangerous) and car workers (I don't like cars that keep breaking down and are unsafe to drive), you did however forget the dock workers and without them we wouldn't have many of the material things we enjoy (and not much food either). It's easy to blame the boss's and the government but they also need to look at themselves, the unions and the market.

The thing that really killed mining was the Clean Air act of 1956. People couldn't burn ordinary coal and smokeless coal was far too expensive so people switched to electricity and gas thus dramatically reducing the need for coal. Coal powered power stations started to close leaving just the steel manufacturers using coal but they started to turn to electricity as well. We ended up in a situation where there was just not enough demand for the high quantity of coal being produced. Then came cheap coal from other countries, mainly because they didn't care about pollution so were still producing large quantities of coal at a knock down price especially as the health and safety regulations did not exist in these countries and the people there worked for a lot less. Wilson saw the end but subsidised the pits because he didn't want unemployment to rise nor did he want to get on the wrong side of the unions by closing pits even though he knew that was the only real cost effective solution. Thatcher never wanted to close the pits as fast as she did but that option was taken away from her by the unions or more to the point Scargil. He saw this as an opportunity to get rid of Thatcher or more to the poinbt the Tories whom he despised. Then we get in to illegal strikes etc, the strikes killed a lot mines because they were deep mines that required pumping 24/7 but he pulled the operators of the pumps out a well, the mines flooded and once flooded there was no chance in re-opening them. The reason Thatcher wanted to take longer closing the pits was that it gave her time to try and set things up, introduce new industry and get the miners retrained to take on different work. If she didn't do this she would loose so many votes at the next election she would be out which is the last thing she wanted. It seems to me that there was no one particular group of people or one person to blame, they were all to blame.

The car industry, remember Red Robbo, it was he that really bought Leyland to its knees coupled with high wages and basically cr*p cars, bad design and poor quality. It was nothing to do with lower wages elsewhere that manufacturing moved it was because they could build better cars, cheaper in other EU countries (less strike no need to keep stopping and starting production). If they really wanted the cars built dirt cheap then Ford and co could have gone to Asia but they went to Europe. Workers didn't strike (striking makes the car more expensive to make) in Europe with the frequency of workers in the UK, material costs were cheaper plus they built better quality cars. In more recent times car manufacturing has come on in leaps and bounds in the UK especially in Nissan and Toyota who both increased production by nearly 90% this year. Nearly all LHD Nissans and Toyotas built for Europe and beyond are built in the UK. Some RHD drive cars are also built but most come from Japan as they drive on the same side of the road as the UK. Japanese car makers were bought to the UK by Thatcher to replace the jobs that the ship builders lost.

There are loads of examples of this type of thing, ship builders, steel workers, print industry, dockers etc each one with it's own story to tell and each one not the fault of an individual or individuals but of everyone involved.

Tow final things, the phrase "If you pay peanuts you get monkeys" was first used by the American L Cuthard in 1966. One of the people you mention has a new(ish) job and works long shifts.

[pachapapa]

On the way to Newcastle I was delayed by striking miners but managed to sign in and check into a University Residence before every one had gone home. The Rock Mechanics Conference started the next morning and progressed with reasonable Papers from the usual fraternity.

Later in the week the mayor did a cocktail do with copious quantities of a specially brewed Brown Beer; the strike became a point of contention but the Professor of Mining at the University of Leeds particularly irked me with the if the Collieries close it will be the end of civilised life in the UK.  When the fact of the matter was that the UK coal mining industry was so badly managed that even with full long-wall cutting and shearing with hydraulic supports, costing millions per working face.....their productivity was less than  I was getting from indigenous workers in south america  using a manual method of extraction called "square set stopping". A method of mining only used in exceptional circumstances where the orebody is so weak that it will not support itself even with a minimal opening. I also told the Professor that he and his ilk would be incapable of working a steeply inclined coal seam as for example at the Merlebach Mine in france. Maggie did you all a favour.

[Gluestick]

As always, Q, I agree with much of what you say: however, would add to your excellent analysis, a little.

Coal: Thatcher, with her mania for "Privatisation", played Gas, Oil and Solid Fuel, off, one against the other, to a degree.

Additionally, it made and makes little sense for Britain to import vast quantities of all sorts and types of coal and anthracite from Poland, France, Australia, South Africa, when with a little more wisdom, Britain could have been much more self-sufficient.

Interestingly, I was at a dinner at the House of Commons in circa 1981 where the guest speaker was Sir Pattrick Mayhew. Seeking questions, as I would ([:)]) I asked why Government was not considering coal more carefully, as a precious natural energy resource. Oil, then, was suffering its post-OPEC early 70s price hikes, increasingly.

He waffled: surprise.

Thatcher - with no cohesive and cogent opposition - ought properly to have created one central Energy Strategy. Britain suffered the net result.

Coal can be ground and blown into blast-type furnaces and acts very similarly to oil. Decent scrubbers can remove a majority of the atmospheric pollutants from burning same.

Agree about the maniac Scargill: shame it wasn't Joe Gormley, the hugely moderate president of NUM who lived in the same council flat for years and forswore such Scargillian luxuries as Jag XJ 6s.

Leyland: different scenario.

Having spent a considerable part of my early time in the automotive industry and deeply involved in my passion for racing etc, I used my little knowledge, a few years back to write a very well received business and event analysis of what caused BMC/Leyland's eventual demise.

Red Robbo was an effect: not a cause.

Coming from a very much much right wing family, I was nurtured on twin mantras: Churchill was only one removed from Zeus: and trades unions were responsible for the demise of British manufacturing industry.

Management School in my 30s was the best thing I ever did; and developed my thinking, somewhat.

I came (From case studies) to the inescapable conclusion that the fault for British manufacturing industry's demise, was in fact Management: they failed, dismally, to actively manage two critical areas: Industrial Relations and Political Relations. Another story.

Additionally, British industry, in majority, from circa 1955 until 1980 was in the hands of unqualified executives, who owed their positions to social class, connections and nepotism.

By the early 1980s and Thatcher's focus on the City, the markets and services, it was all too late.

[Quillan]

Oh come on Gluey, BL cars were absolute cr*p, think 1100,1300, 1800, Maxi, Marina and Allegro. They simply could not complete with Ford and its Cortina and Escort. They basically produced cars that had such a bad reputation (excluding the Austin Ambassador/Princess) for rusting and being unreliable nobody would buy one. When I was a kid if your dad bought one it was almost as bad as wearing Tesco trousers to school and all through your spelling lessons ([;-)]) you had the p*ss taken out of you. I can't also see they had any impact on the music industry either, at least over 23 songs were written about or mentioned the Ford Cortina, I can't find any that mention BL Allegro. Have to say my favorite song with Cortina in it was by Ian Dury which reminds me, the back seats of Cortinas were far more comfortable than the Marina and the front ones went further forward or so somebody told me. [8-|] The only badges they had which they should have kept and have far outlasted them are Jaguar, Land Rover and MG although not admittedly owned by UK companies. Perhaps in hindsight it was best that they sold them.

[just john]

Beg to differ Q and Gluey, BL's downfall was lack of management foresight and investment in quality production procedures, whilst many good designs came out of this period (Mini's to SD1 being an example, currently being aped by BMW) production quality was appalling, once sales fell, investment in new models was doomed (Ital[:D]), down to unions as an effect, but poor Management must take the can. (I speak as the owner of a Stag amongst others)

Edit

[quote user="Quillan"] think 1100,1300, 1800, Maxi, Allegro.[/quote]

Well think Q, brilliant design concept, poor execution, but enough for Ford to take them apart to examine the design concept, and they spelt the end of the RWD popular Fords et al, and changed the industry so that most cars are FWD now.

[Chancer]

I would not be sitting comfortably where I am now if I hadnt invested £276, more than 3 months take home pay in a BOC portapak welding set and spent pretty much all  my evenings (except college nights) and weekends welding up BL rustbuckets.

A typical repair bill for an MOT on a Mini would be at the minimum £60 for sills and inner sills rising to £80-£100 for an 1100/1300 dependant on how far it had progressed along the floorpan, they never made 5 years without needing my attention, some only 3 years and I could be sure that they would be back again every year thereafter.

And then there was the mechanical work, swivel joints, sub-frames, rad by pass hoses, CV joints, steering racks (how I hated those on BL FWD cars), transmission idler bearings, gearboxes, timing chains, the list goes on.

Fords did also rust, noteably the suspension strut top mounts and rear spring hangers, sill replacement was common to most vehicles, in fact the only car I owned in that period  that had not had its sills replaced by myself or a previous owner was my Triumph Stag.

Mind you Italian cars made BL look a very sensible option!

I look at my 9 year old Skoda with 260000 miles on the clock and there is absolutely no sign rust other than a tiny spot beside the tailgate window and still only a surface blemish.

Also in those bad old days if a car went beyond 40000 miles without a decoke, usually a burnt out valve would precipitate it, then it would be unresponsive, as flat as a pancake and drink fuel like a Picard puts away pinard. I have not seen my valve grinding stick for years, and even then I only used it on race engines.

My valve grinding paste got used up as a courtesy bonus added to the engine of the BMW coupé of a particularly nasty non paying customer of my later business.

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="just john "] [quote user="Quillan"] think 1100,1300, 1800, Maxi, Allegro.[/quote]

Well think Q, brilliant design concept, poor execution, but enough for Ford to take them apart to examine the design concept, and they spelt the end of the RWD popular Fords et al, and changed the industry so that most cars are FWD now.

[/quote]

I believe it was the mini they looked at for front wheel drive but only for small cars up to the Escort and now the Focus. All the Cortina's, Sierra's and Mondeos were/are real wheel drive as were the Granada's and Scorpio's (excluding special 4x4 versions).

The management couldn't do anything about the build quality, sack somebody for bad work, strike till they got their job back, criticise in general and were told pay us more money and we will do better work. It was this type of attitude by the workers and the unions that made the management just give up.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="just john "]

Beg to differ Q and Gluey, BL's downfall was lack of management foresight and investment in quality production procedures,[/quote]

Surely, that's what I said: management?

APP (Advanced Product Planning) is a core aspect of industrial product activity. As are Quality Control, and Quality Assurance (Now called TQM - Total Quality Management).

The early architect of what had been BMC's (Assembled by William, later Sir William Morris, later Lord Nuffield, itself a merger, orginally of Morris and Austin - demise, was Len Lord. George Harriman can share much of the blame.

In so many ways, BMC, later BMH, was successful: the Morris Minor still enjoys longevity, spares still being produced in India.

The international competition successes of Austin-Healey, MG and later, the legendary Mini (In Cooper s form) swept all before it.

Rust: all unit-construction cars of the 1950s and 1960s rotted: the Cortina MK I being one of the worst! Lean against a headlamp less than carefully and the whole nacelle would be hanging inside the wing, dangling on its wires! Amongst the very worst being the Vauxhall Victor. The whole cruciform section of the chassis would simply rot and fall off in the road!

The early Cortina MK1 was a pretty dreadful car in many ways. The early 1200 c.c. three-bearing crank engine suffered from bearing problems and incredible sludging.

I worked for the company for a while (Ford Europe) in the mid-60s and for every success, there were more failures.

Ford had one main advantage going for them: the oversquare and therefore high revving 998 c.c. and eight port head introduced on the Ford Anglia in 1959. (The BMC A Series suffered from Siamesed Porting: which restricted power and severely limited tuning potential).

The 1200 c.c. and 1340 c.c. engines were bloody awful however!

The later five bearing crank engines were about right.

The MK I Cortina was popular because it offered significant space and even with a 1200 c.c. engine, excellent power-to-weight ratio. 'Cos the bodywork was so thin!

Rover were good cars: the 3 Litre, for example; the 2000 was revolutionary and won car of the year: the 3500 V8 (I had one of those) super car.

The top end cars, such as Austin Westminster, Wolsely and Riley equivalents were also far nicer cars than the Ford Zephyr anad Zodiac.

The 1100 was a great little car: even better was the 1300 variant (MG e.g.) 'cos it had a slightly de-tuned 1275 Cooper s engine: and if one could drive they were quick.

I had a few of the mid-range cars; Austin A60 type, as Wolsley, MG and A Riley. Nice car in their day. Also had a late Westminster and an earlier Riley 6/66 (From memory). Far nicer than my Zephyr Zodiac of circa 1958 vintage.

By the mid-1960s, however, it was all going wrong. When Lord Stokes (Big is Boootiful) came onto the scene it was all but ended. A look at his management team quickly shows how no one was from the industry, much.

And, BTW, Q, the guy who designed the Cortina MKII was Roy Haynes: who shortly after left joined BMH and designed the 1971 Marina.

Red Robbo:

"Derek Robinson, or "Red Robbo" as he was dubbed by the media, became synonymous with the strikes that crippled production at the Longbridge plant in Birmingham in the 1970s. Between 1978 and 1979, Mr Robinson, union convenor at Longbridge, was behind 523 disputes at the then government-owned British Leyland (BL) plant, Britain's largest factory at the time. He was eventually sacked amid intense press attacks. Many of the votes for strikes were cast in Cofton Park opposite Q-Gate."

Also: "Harold Wilson's industrial planners arranged for BMC to be amalgamated into British Leyland in 1968.

The British Leyland company ran into financial difficulties and was refinanced by the government in 1975. The government thus became the dominant shareholder, but unlike most nationalised industries, British Leyland (later called BL) remained a public company."

By 1971, it was all but over anyway.

The story after the 1970s was one of sheer chicanery, asset-stripping and dubious practice.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Mind you Italian cars made BL look a very sensible option![/quote]

Weren't thinking of the Lancia Beta by any chance, JRC?

[:D]

Dependent upon which plant built it, reverse up the road and you would see a cloud of sparks and finish up with the body sitting on the front bumper: and see your wheels, steering, suspension, engine/transaxle and sub-frame sitting some distance further up the road!

[:D]

[Pickles]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="just john "] [quote user="Quillan"] think 1100,1300, 1800, Maxi, Allegro.[/quote]

Well think Q, brilliant design concept, poor execution, but enough for Ford to take them apart to examine the design concept, and they spelt the end of the RWD popular Fords et al, and changed the industry so that most cars are FWD now.

[/quote]I believe it was the mini they looked at for front wheel drive but only for small cars up to the Escort and now the Focus. All the Cortina's, Sierra's and Mondeos were/are real wheel drive as were the Granada's and Scorpio's (excluding special 4x4 versions).

The management couldn't do anything about the build quality, sack somebody for bad work, strike till they got their job back, criticise in general and were told pay us more money and we will do better work. It was this type of attitude by the workers and the unions that made the management just give up.[/quote]

Just nit-picking, but all marks of the Mondeo so far have been front-wheel-drive, with the occasional four-wheel drive version.

Regards

Pickles