nomoss Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote user="Dog"]I am confused or where do the New York Yankees come into all this?[/quote]Yes, I think you are. The Yank is on another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote user="cooperlola"]Well, I guess it's a bit like Mr Hamilton's post-race comments today. [/quote]Blimey Coops IMHO it was pretty obviously about his driving antics, not racism, Black, White, or Ginger some people walk round with an enormous chip; (apropo Lewis, sportsmanship was (is always) better displayed by Jensen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote user="cooperlola"]Well, I guess it's a bit like Mr Hamilton's post-race comments today. [/quote]Blimey Coops IMHO it was pretty obviously about his driving antics, not racism, Black, White, or Ginger some people walk round with an enormous chip; (apropo Lewis, sportsmanship was (is always) better displayed by Jensen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I heard you the first time.[:D]What I meant, and the reason why I mentioned these things in the same breath was that I didn't think that the decisions about LH were racially based, I don't think that the Cadbury's ad' is offensive, but I have not lived my entire life being judged by the colour of my skin and so I don't think that I can make a real judgement as to whether the ad in question is racist or whether Ms Cambell or Mr Hamilton are paranoid. The only people who really know if they are offended are the offendees not the offenders. That was all I was trying to say. If you read the WHOLE POST again - not just that little phrase, I hope that you can see that. Thanks, Nomoss. I'm sorry that I came off as dismissive. You are quite right, it is not always easy to get one's point across without - on occasions - having several stabs at it.[:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I don't think you need to emphasise that your comments are just your opinion, I presume that the majority of views expressed on the forum are opinion, and whilst I think I'm white, all my life I have received comments about my colour, sometimes reverse racism (try buying jerk chicken at a take away in St Pauls) or that things must be better for me because I'm white, well I don't accept that, I think anyone is entitled to decide for themselves whether remarks are racist or not. The Milky bar kid didn't think it was racist, to me they are in the same vein, I hope I'm not the only one just a bit tired of the racist card being played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pads Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Dove are trying to say this advert isnt racist either......http://membership.findarticles.com/blog/advertising-business/this-dove-ad-isn-8217t-racist-8212-but-unilever-8217s-overseas-skin-lightening-business-is/8731 Take a good look at the picture ........Before and after Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 No, it is not racist, just a joke. Imagine if it had been the other way. Racism exists but not there. better go hunting real racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I put udder cream on my skin. That's real bestiality for you![:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="Pads"]Dove are trying to say this advert isnt racist either......http://membership.findarticles.com/blog/advertising-business/this-dove-ad-isn-8217t-racist-8212-but-unilever-8217s-overseas-skin-lightening-business-is/8731Take a good look at the picture ........Before and after [/quote]This stuff would not sell if somebody didn't want to buy it. The 'black' attitude to people in the past who have said such advertising and products were racist (and who incidentally are normally white) is that it is they that are racist because they are scared they would be able to tell the difference between black and white if blacks started using these products. That type of attitude, as coloured or black people will tell you, is of course stupid because these things do not make them white at all they simply tone down the skin. After all was the company that produce the shin lightening creams Micheal Jackson used on his skin treatment racist? How about straight hair extensions for coloured people or treatments to straighten their natural hair for which you can see adverts for in magazines for coloured people, you even see them windows of Afro Caribbean hairdressers.If black or coloured people really thought this was racist they would soon let somebody know and its not for white people to tell coloured people what is or is not racist, in fact its quite annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Congrats Hamilton, you have confirmed the DM and NF view of non-whites that anytime anything goes wrong you claim it is because of your colour or antecedents. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSKS Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Before retiring I spent 30 years in medicine, mostly surgery. Before having a general anaesthetic it is importrant to test people of certain races for Sickle Cell trait otherwise they could have a potentially fatal sickling crisis under GA.I would explain to each pt to whom this applied that a sickle test should be done and the reason why - their racial background made them a high risk. Not once, not once, did anyone ever suggest I was being racist yet I was clearly testing solely on the grounds of race.To me this suggests that most people understand the physiological differences between races without feeling in any way victimised (by a white surgeon or anaesthetist). So while there are definitely many who choose to discriminate on racial grounds this does not mean that anything justifiably targeted at a particular race for the benefit of the individual (such as Sickle tests, cosmetics etc) is racist.Trying to pretend that skin colour difference doesn't exist is as daft and unpleasant as the sort of knee-jerk and casual racism which truly does affect some of our population. For this model to use her appearance to make a fortune then to get all huffy when an aspect of her appearance is highlighted strikes me as plain hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"][ If black or coloured people really thought this was racist they would soon let somebody know and its not for white people to tell coloured people what is or is not racist, in fact its quite annoying.[/quote]And if non-whites say something is racist - or that they feel it is - then a bunch of white people suddenly pops up and tells them it isn't., who's right? OK, let's look at this a different way and take the emotive question of race out of the equation altogether.Somebody calls me a name I don't like. I tell them that I would rather they didn't refer to me in that way because I find the term insulting. They say it's not insulting and continue to refer to me in the same way, both to my face and behind my back. Are they being offensive (not to mention just plain rude) or am I being paranoid and over sensitive? Ms Cambell may well be using this to bolster a flagging career in whatever it was she does/did for a living but she might not be, she might be genuinely upset and offended by this (they did after all, use her name - it was unequivocal) - who knows unless they inhabit her head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Whatever happened to "Sticks and stones etc"? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="cooperlola"]Somebody calls me a name I don't like. I tell them that I would rather they didn't refer to me in that way because I find the term insulting. They say it's not insulting and continue to refer to me in the same way, both to my face and behind my back. Are they being offensive (not to mention just plain rude) or am I being paranoid and over sensitive?[/quote]Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true e.g. Gorgon Broon is a one-eyed Scot. Any objection indicates paranoia and over sensitivity.John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="Iceni"] Whatever happened to "Sticks and stones etc"? John[/quote]One of the sillier sayings in the English lexicon, imho. Of course language and words can hurt. Can anybody honestly put their hands up and say that they have never been hurt by things which have been said or written about them? You only have to look around the history of this forum to see that people can and have been very hurts by thing which have been said or written - and not always personal things either. But they have no bruises to show for it so does that make it OK?Racist language and epithets just demonstrate a general lack of respect for those who are not the same colour or background as the person who uses them. If we do not care about the feelings of others, then what hope is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 In the 50s & 60s I can not remember seeing an edition of Drum without competing publicity for skin lightening creams.Racists![;-)]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_(South_African_magazine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSKS Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Acknowledging a person's skin colour or race is not racist. Using that feature of their appearance to insult or marginalise the person, or to ascribe to them certain characteristics, is racist.I see nothing in the chocolate ad that is insulting - quite the reverse, it implies that Miss C is really rather attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="JK"]Acknowledging a person's skin colour or race is not racist. Using that feature of their appearance to insult or marginalise the person, or to ascribe to them certain characteristics, is racist. I see nothing in the chocolate ad that is insulting - quite the reverse, it implies that Miss C is really rather attractive.[/quote]Indeed the Eurasian Brand of Female Beauty for me has been almost as irresistible as good quality black chocolate.[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Quillan"][ If black or coloured people really thought this was racist they would soon let somebody know and its not for white people to tell coloured people what is or is not racist, in fact its quite annoying.[/quote]And if non-whites say something is racist - or that they feel it is - then a bunch of white people suddenly pops up and tells them it isn't., who's right? OK, let's look at this a different way and take the emotive question of race out of the equation altogether.Somebody calls me a name I don't like. I tell them that I would rather they didn't refer to me in that way because I find the term insulting. They say it's not insulting and continue to refer to me in the same way, both to my face and behind my back. Are they being offensive (not to mention just plain rude) or am I being paranoid and over sensitive?Ms Cambell may well be using this to bolster a flagging career in whatever it was she does/did for a living but she might not be, she might be genuinely upset and offended by this (they did after all, use her name - it was unequivocal) - who knows unless they inhabit her head? [/quote]Don't want to get off on the wrong foot again so just to make it plain I was talking about skin lightening cream and as far as I know no black or coloured person has said that offering such cream for sale is racist etc just like the hair products.With reference to Ms Cambell she probably threw a wobbly when she saw the advert and asked her legal beagle about royalties for using her name. When she was told no she probably threw an even bigger wobbly and used the old racist card. She does do this sort of thing a lot, throw her teddy out the pram that is.Having had a coloured wife and mixed race daughter I am fully aware of what racism is like from both sides. [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"][quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Quillan"][ If black or coloured people really thought this was racist they would soon let somebody know and its not for white people to tell coloured people what is or is not racist, in fact its quite annoying.[/quote]And if non-whites say something is racist - or that they feel it is - then a bunch of white people suddenly pops up and tells them it isn't., who's right? OK, let's look at this a different way and take the emotive question of race out of the equation altogether.Somebody calls me a name I don't like. I tell them that I would rather they didn't refer to me in that way because I find the term insulting. They say it's not insulting and continue to refer to me in the same way, both to my face and behind my back. Are they being offensive (not to mention just plain rude) or am I being paranoid and over sensitive?Ms Cambell may well be using this to bolster a flagging career in whatever it was she does/did for a living but she might not be, she might be genuinely upset and offended by this (they did after all, use her name - it was unequivocal) - who knows unless they inhabit her head? [/quote]Don't want to get off on the wrong foot again so just to make it plain I was talking about skin lightening cream and as far as I know no black or coloured person has said that offering such cream for sale is racist etc just like the hair products.With reference to Ms Cambell she probably threw a wobbly when she saw the advert and asked her legal beagle about royalties for using her name. When she was told no she probably threw an even bigger wobbly and used the old racist card. She does do this sort of thing a lot, throw her teddy out the pram that is.Having had a coloured wife and mixed race daughter I am fully aware of what racism is like from both sides. [;-)] [/quote]I was agreeing with you.[:D] Just in case this has escaped anybody because clearly I'm not saying this properly - it is my belief that the only person who can say whether they are offended or not by specific language are those on the receiving end.Can you ask your wife and daughter because I think it's interesting - I see you use the word "coloured" when referring to people of mixed race. It was my understanding that this word is unacceptable to people of mixed race. Since you use it and are closer to this subject (literally) than I, I wondered if I had got this wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="Iceni"][quote user="cooperlola"] Somebody calls me a name I don't like. I tell them that I would rather they didn't refer to me in that way because I find the term insulting. They say it's not insulting and continue to refer to me in the same way, both to my face and behind my back. Are they being offensive (not to mention just plain rude) or am I being paranoid and over sensitive?[/quote]Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true e.g. Gorgon Broon is a one-eyed Scot. Any objection indicates paranoia and over sensitivity.John [/quote]Those are just facts about him. I know lots of Scots. Some I like, some not so much. I have two good friends who are missing an eye. Sad for them as they don't see as well as most of us. If I disliked Mr Brown and called him a "one eyed Scottish idiot" then yes, that would be offensive because that's not an attempt to describe him or distinguish him from other people it's self-evidently an insult and if somebody referrred to me as a fat cripple then I'd be offended and I'd complain and feel justified in doing so even though I'm both of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 If you said "Mr Brown, the one-eyed Scot" then most UK people would know exactly who you meant, having suffered under him during 13 years of Labour misrule. As to calling you "a fat cripple" of course I wouldn't do it, you are far too handy with your sticks. What price free speech? The truth hurts but we were all encouraged to "tell the truth and shame the devil" - perhaps that is why so many us old frats struggle with 21st century standards (sic).John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote user="cooperlola"] if somebody referrred to me as a fat cripple then I'd be offended and I'd complain and feel justified in doing so even though I'm both of those things.[/quote]Don't kid yourself Coops you ain't fat, well maybe that bandage on your knee is, but is a temporary/ recovering raspberry ripple really a cripple?[:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 [quote user="cooperlola"]Well, I guess it's a bit like Mr Hamilton's post-race comments today. Unless you've ever been - constantly - on the negative end of racism, you cannot know what it feels like and how "paranoid" that can make you. As a person who's always been white in a mainly white society, I'm just not sure that I can ever know or undestand what racism really is and what it feels like. Only those who are the subjects of these offences are really qualified to know - if somebody is offended by something then it's offensive (to them, if not to the rest of us.) That's all that matters. It's not up to white society to decide what is offensive to non-whites. It's up to them.[/quote]This is a none race based thought. I realise that if someone is constantly on the recieving end of insulting behaviour it can get a bit "wearysome" (to say the least) but I do also feel that some people spend too much of their time looking to see if they have been insulted.This bit refers to race. In libel cases (which can be as serious as race cases) the test is whether "right minded people" feel that a reputation has suffered. Perhaps the same test should be applied when anybody thinks that they are subject to racial intolerance? (Recently a claim was made against somebody who was trying to quell gossip in her organisation and she used the term "jungle drums", she meant no offence by the term, it turns out that the complainant is a serial complainant.... just looking for trouble?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote user="woolybanana"]The irascible Ms Campbell seems to think the former whilst I tend toward the latter. What do you reckon?http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/advertising/naomi-campbell-in-race-row-over-cadbury-chocolate-2290405.html[/quote]Cadbury apologises over Naomi Campbell advert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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