Savile: the Blame Culture

[YCCMB]

What I think must be taken into account, and as Liz McKean pointed out in an interview about the dropping of the original Newsnight programme, is that the alleged victims have come forward - albeit many prompted by the initial revelations - entirely independently of one another, yet many of the stories they have told bear similarities which tend to suggest that they are true. Unless several hundred people who have, for the most part, never met, have colluded together to sully the reputation of a dead person.

As Quillan has said, for the alleged victims this seems to be the first occasion that they have had to be taken seriously, and for the most part it would appear that many of them simply want to be believed. They've carried the memory of this with them, some for maybe 40 years, and it appears that some simply feel that they have a right to be believed and taken seriously which has been denied them so far.

Whether all the allegations prove to be true or not, the question as to why more than one previous investigation into Savile and alleged sexual abuse was abandoned is a curious one. At least he was still alive at that point.

[Chancer]

Shows how differently things were percieved then as it was recorded live in front of a studio audience and went out on TV like that, the chirpy cheeky cheerfull youthfull ageing DJ gooses young girl etc etc. Did any of the viewing public complain, did they ever, hard to look back that long but I reckon his reputation was well known at the time and perhaps he was even expected to play up to it.

However the young girl was  clearly distressed, what really concerns me is how the camera zooms in on him so you cannot actually see what he is doing, although I dont have much doubt, and the poor girls reaction, again I have no doubts she hated it.

Did the cameraman zoom in because he knew what could and shouldnt be shown or was it as I suspect post production editting before being broadcast?

Again another indication of how things were percieved then is the amused reaction of all the other girls around him.

[Quillan]

The thing for the BBC though is not just Saville, it was the BBC culture back then particularly, it appears, with those working in Radio One. Squeezing the breasts of female DJ's while on air etc, etc. Then there are issues about John Peel (R1 DJ) for example having a sexual affair with a 15 year old and why the BBC are to remove his name from a wing of their offices. The there is Russell Joslin, a BBC reporter who suffered sexual harassment from a female member of staff and who ended up taking his own life and of course there are the "BBC 9" who are all living and working for the BBC who are under current investigation.

Anyway I don't know about anyone else but I am starting to get 'Savilled out' now so hopefully it will fall off the radar for a while and let the police get on with their enquiries.

[Russethouse]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223131/Russell-Joslin-Police-chiefs-son-kills-claiming-sex-harassment-woman-colleague-BBC.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

According to the report in the Mail The BBC did provide some care for Mr Joslin, also if you read the text of the phone calls the woman in question made it seems like someone was making a mountain out of a mole hill......frankly any woman would be annoyed

Like you I'm all Saviled out.......but what we do need to do is become a lot better at listening, the Rochdale case proves that......

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"].......but what we do need to do is become a lot better at listening, the Rochdale case proves that......[/quote]

Exactly which is why Cameron has said (PM's Questions last week) that in future the police will have to properly investigate any sexual abuse claims.

[Quillan]

I just had a quick look at today's newspapers, guess what? Gary Glitter has been arrested in relationship to the Saville investigation, well what a surprise that was (not). http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/oct/28/gary-glitter-arrested-jimmy-savile Puts a whole new view on his lyrics of "Do you want to be in my gang". [;-)]

PS. I see the investigation now has a name, Operation Yewtree.

[mint]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Exactly which is why Cameron has said (PM's Questions last week) that in future the police will have to properly investigate any sexual abuse claims.

[/quote]

Ah, Cameron shooting off his mouth before engaging his brain as usual!

What about being fair to the accused and what's to stop people claiming abuse where none's taken place?  And I'm NOT condoning any blameworthy behaviour.  But Cameron is always responding off the cuff and then, at a later date, he comes back and says, well, actually what I propose cannot be done.  I've lost count of the number of times I've seen him pursing his lips, trying to look concerned and saying something without thought and without thinking through the implications of what he's said.

Guidelines, some sort of policy need to be in place to investigate claims but I'll bet you anything you like that if you asked Cameron how he is going to implement them, he wouldn't have a clue!

And, in case anyone is thinking that I am just Cameron-bashing, I can assure you that I am not.  This is too serious a matter to use as an opportunity to simply to score points off a politician.

[Quillan]

Lets be honest he should not have had to say it really unless the police are not doing their job properly. I have always believed that in cases like this and of those of rape the rule of anonymity should apply to both alleged victim and accused until after the trial should the accused be found guilty.

[Hoddy]

I heartily agree with your last post NormanH. One has to wonder how it is that when the print media can almost tell you when various celebrities go to the lavatory that they didn't know what was going on ?

As RH said we must listen to the victims, but then what ? It used to be my job to attend case conferences for abused children. I was not happy with the outcome of he following example which is a good illustration of the complexities which can occur.

Two of my girls alleged that their grandfather, who lived with them, had been going into the bedroom they shared with each other and 'interfering' with them.

Two of their aunts supported them and said that the man (their father) had done the same to them when young.

I'm not sure if it was reported to social services or the police.

This caused a massive upheaval in the family and the aunts were prevailed upon to withdraw their support for the girls.

The doctor present said that he had not examined them to see if penetrative sex had taken place because he did not want to invade their privacy unnecessarily.

In the end it was agreed that the girls should push a chest of drawers against their bedroom door when they went to bed each night.

I was extremely unhappy about this but the overwhelming view from the family was that it would not only bring shame on the family but on the girls too and all the others present thought that the solution of the chest of drawers was the best one.

We must somehow arrive at a state where no stigma attaches to the victims which unfortunately isn't always the case. This is such a complex subject that I'm afraid that in the current frenzy we may come up with some daft 'solutions'.

Hoddy

[Chancer]

I watched Sky news yesterday a,d was shocked to hear the reporter use the words "a predator like Savile" it would have been illegal to state something like that while he was alive so why do they not use the old cop out  "alleged" now he is dead?

[woolybanana]

I see that G. Glitter has been arrested in connexion with this mucky business. One hopes that it won't be a case of the 'usual suspects' and that the Augean Stable will be thoroughly cleansed.

[Théière]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Then there are issues about John Peel (R1 DJ) for example having a sexual affair with a 15 year old and why the BBC are to remove his name from a wing of their offices. [/quote]

Hmm, a very different era caused again by the promiscuity of your generation, oh and that sweet little thing who had sex several times with John Peel (thinks that was nice must see John again soon) was at a Black Sabbath concert not a Sunday school bible reading class.

Wasn't that long ago homosexuals were locked up in prison now time has moved as have viewpoints. Hindsight such a wonderful thing. 

[woolybanana]

What do you mean by 'your generation, Theire?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Quillan"]

Then there are issues about John Peel (R1 DJ) for example having a sexual affair with a 15 year old and why the BBC are to remove his name from a wing of their offices. [/quote]

Hmm, a very different era caused again by the promiscuity of your generation, oh and that sweet little thing who had sex several times with John Peel (thinks that was nice must see John again soon) was at a Black Sabbath concert not a Sunday school bible reading class.

Wasn't that long ago homosexuals were locked up in prison now time has moved as have viewpoints. Hindsight such a wonderful thing. 

[/quote]

She was 15 years old. It take two and the 'adult' is responsible for ensuring that they are not having under age sex willing or otherwise. I believe the 'affair' lasted three months or more and the girl was forced to have an abortion. Not exactly behaving responsibly, there are such things as condoms.

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]I see that G. Glitter has been arrested in connexion with this mucky business. One hopes that it won't be a case of the 'usual suspects' and that the Augean Stable will be thoroughly cleansed.[/quote]

Your late again Wooly, go back four posts, do keep up. [:P] [;-)]

[woolybanana]

Sorry, must have missed it!

[Théière]

[quote user="woolybanana"]What do you mean by 'your generation, Theire?[/quote]

The summer of love 1967, how old would you have been, old enough to enjoy the new sexual freedom bought on by the free love followers, flower power and naked antics at the Isle of Wight festival. Rock & Roll the Beatles and the Stones, if you had only done as your parents had wanted and listened to their music none of this would have happened (well it probably would have anyway [:)]) One things for sure more crap coming out of "news pappers" where just for once there is no chance of them ending up in expensive lawsuits and Leveson enquiries.  Words like forced to have an abortion! even the Daily Mail doesn't go as far as Q, As Jane Nevin said she was in awe so it's hormones leading her into a torrid 3 month affair ( her abortion was traumatic not forced, which I could well understand) or don't young women know the law that only older men are supposed to act on?  There will always be people of easy virtue but it's opinion that changes. How do you get on growing up being told homosexuality is wrong, very wrong then you must drop that thought and embrace the new thinking and mustn't make jokes about it.

 

[Russethouse]

I recently read Carly Simon's biography, frankly she seems to have slept with a great many people, but as her biographer points out there was a period between the popularity of use of the birth control pill and the discovery of Aids where a different, more liberal, culture existed.

However the same rules applied as far as the age of consent was concerned, it's not a valid excuse.

[mint]

[quote user="Quillan"][

She was 15 years old. It take two and the 'adult' is responsible for ensuring that they are not having under age sex willing or otherwise. 

[/quote]

Indeed.  I suppose you could compare it to, for example, the recent case of the Maths teacher running off to Bordeaux with his 15-year old student.  He is charged with having committed a crime and I believe is held in custody somewhere.

Wonder what would have happened if they'd run off to Spain instead of to France as the age of consent in Spain is 15 years old and you could argue that they wouldn't have been committing a crime in the country where they were "caught"?

[Alan Zoff]

The cult of celebrity, with the public raising "stars" to God-like status, has a lot to answer for, most of it bad. We treat these people as something special, pay them absolute fortunes and, not surprisingly, they begin to believe they are above the law.

What's more, they are above the law as in our legal system, where we are all supposed to be treated equally, it is the one with the deepest pockets and therefore the more successful barrister who is more likely to win. Indeed, few of us could afford to take them on.

But this time the celebrity factor is going to do some good for the victim in the ordinary household. Thanks to the revelations concerning Savile and his ilk, the police, social services, families, are now all going to have take accusations more seriously. There's just a chance that grandfathers and uncles might think twice before taking advantage of some vulnerable child as a result of the fall-out from this. It won't stop it happening, but if it stops some....

For me, it is not about the BBC. The Beeb is just one of several players in a society full of abuse and cover-ups. As has been said, the hypocrites in the media raise their hands in horror, when the media above all has known what has been going on among celebrities, long before anyone had the guts - or more accurately, was forced - to make it public.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="sweet 17"][quote user="Quillan"][

She was 15 years old. It take two and the 'adult' is responsible for ensuring that they are not having under age sex willing or otherwise. 

[/quote]

Indeed.  I suppose you could compare it to, for example, the recent case of the Maths teacher running off to Bordeaux with his 15-year old student.  He is charged with having committed a crime and I believe is held in custody somewhere.

Wonder what would have happened if they'd run off to Spain instead of to France as the age of consent in Spain is 15 years old and you could argue that they wouldn't have been committing a crime in the country where they were "caught"?

[/quote]He was still committing a crime under English law by going abroad with the girl without her parents' consent so the UK authorities would have been able to issue an EU arrest warrant whereever he was in the EU.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Théière"]

[quote user="woolybanana"]What do you mean by 'your generation, Theire?[/quote]

The summer of love 1967, how old would you have been, old enough to enjoy the new sexual freedom bought on by the free love followers, flower power and naked antics at the Isle of Wight festival. Rock & Roll the Beatles and the Stones, if you had only done as your parents had wanted and listened to their music none of this would have happened (well it probably would have anyway [:)]) 

[/quote]

 

You seem to be extraordinarily impressionable. I think perhaps you should learn to take the lurid tales you hear about the sixties, especially those from thirty-some-year-old "experts" on so-called "history" programmes, with a large pinch of salt [:)]

[Théière]

I grew up on the Isle of Wight and it wasn't a pinch of salt they were taking [;-)]

[nomoss]

[quote user="Théière"]I grew up on the Isle of Wight and it wasn't a pinch of salt they were taking [;-)][/quote]

Do you really believe that the behaviour you observed of some of the few hundred visitors to the island 45 years ago was representative of the rest of the young population of the mainland?

Even if that is what you believed at the time, didn't broadening your horizons (assuming you did so) temper your ideas?

 

[woolybanana]

Ah well yes if you are comparing the real world with the IOW , then I see your poine. But, don't they still have whipping for infidelity and stoning for being gay. And the word Daddy includes uncles, cousins as well as some aunites?