If France has 'non-assistance à personne en danger', is there something similar in England?

[idun]

I was just wondering about this and how it would work.

Does anyone know?

[Frederick]

Idun  .....I thank  you for your post...... You have reminded me the first aid kit in the boot of my car  needs to be re-stocked .  I forgot  to do it and I imagine a few more on this forum,  have  used stuff out of theirs as well .

Not law in the UK  as far as I know......   but it should be and people be obliged to help also . Not many would in the UK for fear of a court action if they assisted at an accident and their action was deemed to make matters worse ... I would help  at at accident and have done  but many   don't and drive past . One for legal protection if action done with best intention I think ...

[Patf]

Cynical of me I know, but I suspect in UK people stand back for fear of doing the wrong thing and being sued. [:(]

In fact there have been cases of even police behaving like that - "only the experts can get involved."

[Quillan]

Or firemen watching somebody drown in a two foot pond because they are not allowed to help under health and safety rules, well something like that I seem to remember last year.

[Frederick]

Its a sorry state to have got into .....but .... I  know that nurses if off duty and assisting a collapse in the street are advised not to disclose they are Health Care Professionals .

[idun]

There is a reason I have asked this question, but it seems that there is no law per se, and for once, this is good.

[Quillan]

Couple of things.

If you do carry a first aid kit even though you have not used it you should check every year its contents. Some things like antiseptic wipes etc do have 'use by' dates on them. I also carry a blanket, one of those fold up picnic ones just in case to keep somebody warm. I also have a couple of survival bags that fold up to the size of a packet of cigarettes being in the mountains, you never know.

I was taught at school, in the scouts and in the RAF how to carry out mouth to mouth etc, how to stop bleeding and putting somebody in the recovery position and checking for swallowed tongue etc, the basic stuff. Things like if it is a motor cyclist (or just a cyclist) not to remove their helmet and if their neck is across a raised curb not to move them (possible broken neck).

Now, in the UK, basically don't touch them, if it is cold and you have a blanket then throw that over them but don't touch. Firstly you might get sued if something can later be proved to have something to do with what you have done and it was wrong and secondly they seem to think these sort of things should only be done by professionals which in reality means paramedics. Sad but rue the best advice is to dial 999, give the details then walk away. Personally it goes against everything I have been taught and my own personal morals and I find it very difficult not to help but thats life I guess.

In France when we had somebody very ill a few years back I was surprised that an ambulance person is not allowed to use any needle of any kind, only a paramedic can do that. Even if, like in our case, the partner of the ill person is a doctor they are not allowed to stick a needle in them as we discovered.

[Nelson]

Now, in the UK, basically don't touch them, if it is cold and you have a blanket then throw that over them but don't touch. Firstly you might get sued if something can later be proved to have something to do with what you have done and it was wrong and secondly they seem to think these sort of things should only be done by professionals which in reality means paramedics. Sad but rue the best advice is to dial 999, give the details then walk away. Personally it goes against everything I have been taught and my own personal morals and I find it very difficult not to help but thats life I guess

 

 

 

Quillan this must be the biggest load of tosh I have read in a long time.

Can you give any references to people in the U.K being sued for trying to save a life. (other than mal-practice by the medical proffession)

[NickP]

[quote user="Quillan"]Or firemen watching somebody drown in a two foot pond because they are not allowed to help under health and safety rules, well something like that I seem to remember last year.[/quote]

Or for French photographers taking pictures of somebody dying instead of  helping, well something like that I seem to remember a few years ago

[Quillan]

[quote user="Nelson"]

Now, in the UK, basically don't touch them, if it is cold and you have a blanket then throw that over them but don't touch. Firstly you might get sued if something can later be proved to have something to do with what you have done and it was wrong and secondly they seem to think these sort of things should only be done by professionals which in reality means paramedics. Sad but rue the best advice is to dial 999, give the details then walk away. Personally it goes against everything I have been taught and my own personal morals and I find it very difficult not to help but thats life I guess

Quillan this must be the biggest load of tosh I have read in a long time.

Can you give any references to people in the U.K being sued for trying to save a life. (other than mal-practice by the medical proffession)

[/quote]

No I can't because I don't live there anymore and quite frankly I don't care. However this was what I and the rest of the class were told at the St Johns Ambulance HQ, Grosvenor Square on a first aid course back in 1998 run for staff at the V&A, it has of course moved from there since.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="Nelson"]

Now, in the UK, basically don't touch them, if it is cold and you have a blanket then throw that over them but don't touch. Firstly you might get sued if something can later be proved to have something to do with what you have done and it was wrong and secondly they seem to think these sort of things should only be done by professionals which in reality means paramedics. Sad but rue the best advice is to dial 999, give the details then walk away. Personally it goes against everything I have been taught and my own personal morals and I find it very difficult not to help but thats life I guess

Quillan this must be the biggest load of tosh I have read in a long time.

Can you give any references to people in the U.K being sued for trying to save a life. (other than mal-practice by the medical proffession)

[/quote]

No I can't because I don't live there anymore and quite frankly I don't care. However this was what I and the rest of the class were told at the St Johns Ambulance HQ, Grosvenor Square on a first aid course back in 1998 run for staff at the V&A, it has of course moved from there since.

[/quote]

 

It makes rather a nonsense of running First Aid courses, if that's what you were taught.

Makes one wonder why do they bother with a course that consists of  "throw a blanket over the casualty, call 999 and walk away" ?

Or is that simply all you can remember? [:D]

 

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Quillan"][quote user="Nelson"]

Now, in the UK, basically don't touch them, if it is cold and you have a blanket then throw that over them but don't touch. Firstly you might get sued if something can later be proved to have something to do with what you have done and it was wrong and secondly they seem to think these sort of things should only be done by professionals which in reality means paramedics. Sad but rue the best advice is to dial 999, give the details then walk away. Personally it goes against everything I have been taught and my own personal morals and I find it very difficult not to help but thats life I guess

Quillan this must be the biggest load of tosh I have read in a long time.

Can you give any references to people in the U.K being sued for trying to save a life. (other than mal-practice by the medical proffession)

[/quote]

No I can't because I don't live there anymore and quite frankly I don't care. However this was what I and the rest of the class were told at the St Johns Ambulance HQ, Grosvenor Square on a first aid course back in 1998 run for staff at the V&A, it has of course moved from there since.

[/quote]

It makes rather a nonsense of running First Aid courses, if that's what you were taught.

Makes one wonder why do they bother with a course that consists of  "throw a blanket over the casualty, call 999 and walk away" ?

Or is that simply all you can remember? [:D]

[/quote]

It was for workplace accidents and afterwards they talked in general and that's when it came up. We were told we were not doctors, paramedics etc (pretty obvious really) and to call 999 and leave it to the professionals.

Fortunately no Abba music was involved either.[;-)]

[YCCMB]

Quillan, don't you think it's a bit odd that you have dived in to answer a question and made a number of rather sweeping statements to illustrate your answer, and then topped it all of by admitting that you cannot back up your assertions because you no longer live in the UK and (sic) don't care?

Oh, and by the way it wasn't firemen that would not jump into the water to help someone, it was two police community support officers. They probably went on the same first aid course that you attended.....and it was a canal IIRC, not. "Two foot pond", but I understand you may not care as you no longer live in the UK..

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Oh, and by the way it wasn't firemen that would not jump into the water to help someone, it was two police community support officers. They probably went on the same first aid course that you attended.....and it was a canal IIRC, not. "Two foot pond", but I understand you may not care as you no longer live in the UK..[/quote]

Thanks Betty for verifying my comment about being told not to help.

[idun]

And my question was nothing to do with any of the things mentioned.

An incident last weekend and someone now screaming blue murder that they were left for dead and no one helped them and they were going to prosecute. But that is what you get when you start a fight and the person  you have been insulting and then hit, hits back....... then the police are called and an ambulance which actually takes you to hospital. You haven't 'been left for dead', but friends, now ex friends sometimes don't want to get involved with someone  else's stupidity. And at a party, maybe drink was heavily involved???? 

Still non assistance etc came up and I thought I would ask.

[Patf]

This is another aspect idun. If you see people fighting in the street and one of them is getting the worst of it, it would take a brave person to intervene. Often weapons are involved nowadays, especially knives. In my younger days I did get involved once, but wouldn't risk it now.

There was a programme on tv a few years ago about this, and they interviewed relatives of people who had lost their lives trying to help.

I expect this happens in France too.

[pitway]

Don't recall ABBA being involved!! Bee gees

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILxjxfB4zNk

Take a look at some of the 'I've been Vinnied' vids

[idun]

Patf, I doubt I would get involved at all. When I was about 20 a colleagues brother in law intervened in a family fight at the neighbours house, when it  had spilled out into the street. He ended up dead. Certainly put me off. Still I say I wouldn't, but if someone was attacking my family I dare say it would be quite a different thing.

[Quillan]

In my youth I would fight back, now I am slower and older plus these people carry knifes and for the average person there is little or no defence other than, to be blunt, run away or if they are robbing you hand over the money.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Oh, and by the way it wasn't firemen that would not jump into the water to help someone, it was two police community support officers. They probably went on the same first aid course that you attended.....and it was a canal IIRC, not. "Two foot pond", but I understand you may not care as you no longer live in the UK..[/quote]

Thanks Betty for verifying my comment about being told not to help.

[/quote] What? So you couldn't actually bring yourself to admit the fact that you were making the other stuff up so you have to come up with a cheap swipe? And I really thought you were better than that, Quillan.

[Frecossais]

So, if I'm driving along the road in France and see that there's been an accident, (car and driver in ditch for example), I should stop and see what I can do to help? I would do that in any country. However does this still apply if there are other cars stopped and other people giving assistance? 

I have always thought that stopping would be a requirement if you saw an accident happening, or if no other persons were assisting.

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Oh, and by the way it wasn't firemen that would not jump into the water to help someone, it was two police community support officers. They probably went on the same first aid course that you attended.....and it was a canal IIRC, not. "Two foot pond", but I understand you may not care as you no longer live in the UK..[/quote]

Thanks Betty for verifying my comment about being told not to help.

[/quote] What? So you couldn't actually bring yourself to admit the fact that you were making the other stuff up so you have to come up with a cheap swipe? And I really thought you were better than that, Quillan.[/quote]

I understand now, you were using sarcasm and there was me thinking you never did such a thing (and no I am not being sarcastic in my reply either before or now). I normally take what you say as gospel, I will be more careful in future.

[NormanH]

For those who haven't read the French thread about this that idun is referring to I would remind people that the idea of 'assitance' in the law is limited.

No one is expected to put their own life in danger or do something that they are not qualified or competent to do.

What is a duty is not to just pass by and leave someone in trouble.

If I am driving along a country road and come across someone who is the victim of a hit and run accident for example I am supposed to at least stop and try to summon help, rather than just drive on.

This may seem just simple humanity, but if you don't do it you can be prosecuted in France.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="NormanH"]For those who haven't read the French thread about this that idun is referring to I would remind people that the idea of 'assitance' in the law is limited.
No one is expected to put their own life in danger or do something that they are not qualified or competent to do.
What is a duty is not to just pass by and leave someone in trouble.
If I am driving along a country road and come across someone who is the victim of a hit and run accident for example I am supposed to at least stop and try to summon help, rather than just drive on.
This may seem just simple humanity, but if you don't do it you can be prosecuted in France.


[/quote]Quite right too! Any one who passes by without helping should be prosecuted in any civilised country.

[nomoss]

[quote user="NormanH"]For those who haven't read the French thread about this that idun is referring to I would remind people that the idea of 'assitance' in the law is limited.
No one is expected to put their own life in danger or do something that they are not qualified or competent to do.
What is a duty is not to just pass by and leave someone in trouble.
If I am driving along a country road and come across someone who is the victim of a hit and run accident for example I am supposed to at least stop and try to summon help, rather than just drive on.
This may seem just simple humanity, but if you don't do it you can be prosecuted in France.


[/quote]

What thread, please? I see no reference to a thread in idun's first post.

Is there something wrong with my browser?

Or has it been removed for some reason?