Brexit deal: the effects on British immigrants in France

[Debra]

nomoss British Citizenship can only be passed down by one generation if you're not born there.  My son was born in France but can't pass his British Citizenship onto his children unless they are born in the UK.  I'll claim his French Citizenship for him as soon as he gets to age 13.  He doesn't technically need it as his children would be French if born here because otherwise they would be stateless but I'd rather claim it for him and secure his rights within the EU for as long as France is still in it.

A permanent cds comes in useful if ever your circumstances change and you are asked to prove your right to stay.  I had a nightmare period when I separated from my ex and both the UK and France denied being my competent state.  Child benefits stopped, healthcare stopped.  It took nearly three years to sort it and during that time I had to produce that huge file which proved my permanent right to stay many times.  I was advised by SOLVIT, whom I eventually had to call in to help get my EU rights recognised, to obtain a permanent cds as this would easily prove my rights from then on rather than having to carry an ever growing folder of proof with  me to any appointments with the bureaucracy.

In the relief that all was sorted, I didn't actually apply for it back then - but I soon sorted it after the referendum.  As AnOther says, it's better than not having it and better than having to use the wheelbarrow method again in future (which is what would be needed to carry all my paperwork proof in another few years).  To swap this one for the new one all I'll need is proof of continuity of residence (avis d'impots and a utility bill per semester since it was issued) and a criminality check - which I suspect has already been done anyway, since they took my fingerprints and already have all the rest of the info needed to do one.

[Debra]

Maybe some people think it's no big deal because they currently qualify as being legally resident under either EU or non EU rules?  Some of us don't and need to produce a file proving a five year qualifying period from years ago (it was ten in my case) plus proof of continuity of residence since then.  If you only need to produce the last five years it's more simple.

A concern for me is whether my income would be considered stable if we had to apply under non EU rules and didn't retain our permanent residence rights under existing EU law as EU Citizens.  Third country nationals have the same income requirements as you need to apply for naturalisation (stable income of SMIC net in my case, more than I need under EU Citizen rules).  I have the correct amount of income but it's not classed as 'stable' under those rules.  A good part of my income is UK rental income - and foreign rental income is not classed as stable (French rental income is).  For this reason alone I decided I'd best apply for the permanent cds in the hope that the rights it docoments (permanent residence with no further conditions) will continue to be recognised by France in future, if not the EU as a whole.

[alittlebitfrench]

@ Debra

Here is a question for you.

Given the choice and all things being equal, would you choose (any location in the UK of your choice) to live in France or the UK ?

[Debra]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]@ Debra

Here is a question for you.

Given the choice and all things being equal, would you choose (any location in the UK of your choice) to live in France or the UK ?[/quote]In future, I don't know.  At the moment I have a child in primary school and one at university who I wouldn't want to disrupt by moving.  Once they are up and independant I might fancy a change - not necessarily to the UK, maybe to somewhere different? 

I have property I need to sell before I could seriously consider relocation and that can take time.  Meanwhile, I'd prefer to have the choice to stay or go, as I do now.  The thought of going back to the UK and losing the right to come back to France makes me nervous (one of my kids is definitely staying here and the one at uni possibly - he's applied for naturalisation) so I'd really need to be sure before I risked doing that.  By the time my son in uni finishes and is independant it may be too late to risk my youngest moving education systems. 

The next few years is a bit iffy to move either of them really - brexit has come at an awkward time for me but I may have more flexibility in a few years' time and I'll decide then, obviously depending on what my situation is then.  Hopefully I'll retain the freedom to decide then.

I'm a bit concerned that my eldest has gone back to the UK and may lose his permanent residence rights in France if he's not living here on brexit day.  I've seen legal analysis of the citizens' rights agreement that go both ways - one saying he'll retain the right to return that he has now and it may even be extended to the new five year rule and another saying he won't, but will slip through the net.

[alittlebitfrench]

So it is your kids and their education that is holding you back ?

Something I said for myself in other thread.

I would not worry to much about Brexit. Nothing will change.

[Chancer]

Debra.

 

That was the first reasoned justification I have seen for applying for a C.D.S. and makes complete sense.

[Cathar Tours]

It would seem that if you have lived say in France for 5 or more years and are therefore classed as resident not only will you be able to stay there but by default you will be able to move to another EU country if you wish. There will be no problem going back and forth to the UK. In one of the documents I read (links below) it seems you could go back to the UK fro up to three years without losing your rights.

You might find the following from the EU helpful but your have to work your way through it as most is to do with EU citizens in the UK BUT there is stuff in their about UK citizens in the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/services/your-rights/Brexit_en

Here is a typical question (there are a lot more if you search through the document).

I am British and have lived in Austria with my parents for nine years. They both work. Do I have any residence rights in Austria post-Brexit?

Yes. As somebody who has lived in an EU Member State for at least five years, you have already obtained a right of permanent residence that is no longer subject to any conditions (such as that you have to continue being a family member). This right will be preserved under the Joint Report.

I personally will get a blue card as I will have only been in Europe for three years when the two year Art. 50 limit runs out. Not a problem, my company will take care of that for me.

You can find more information using the following link.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/2017-12-12_qa_citizens_rights_1.pdf

This is their proposal providing the UK keeps to its word.

It appears you only have to prove you have been resident for 5 years as both documents say...

"Have already acquired right of permanent residence (that is no longer subject to any conditions)."

My dad is applying for residence in France as a belt and braces exercise and if that's what makes him feel comfortable then all well and good. His problem being retired is healthcare. Early indications are the S1 system will continue to function if your resident.

There is still plenty for scope for the UK to muck things up or even go for a hard Brexit in which case all deals would be off. At the end of the day reality is whatever is, or isn't signed for on the day the UK finally leaves.

I don't know about in France but in Germany whenever Brexit comes up in the news, which is not that often, You get the impression that UK does not really know what it wants at the next stage. It has been told it can have a Canada type deal, Norway type deal or no deal yet seems incapable of choosing.

[Chancer]

I came across several massive fly posters for FREXIT in Amiens metropole this morning.

 

Looked like a political campaign but I forgot the web address.

[Debra]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]So it is your kids and their education that is holding you back ?

Something I said for myself in other thread.

I would not worry to much about Brexit. Nothing will change.[/quote]Holding me back?  That sounds as if I definitely want to move back to the UK.   I have property here and kids settled here and though I may decide to

move on at some future point, I'd like that to be my choice when I am

ready and have time to organise such a move (if indeed there is one).  I don't know what my future holds but at the moment I'd rather do anything I can to protect the choices I have now, as far as I can.

It's nice that you're so sure that things won't change but personally I don't think that view is practical.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Chancer"]That was the first reasoned justification I have seen for applying for a C.D.S. and makes complete sense.[/quote]Hardly typical of the average Brits situation though !

Re possible onward movement this is taken from Cathay Tours link:

Q: It is not fair that UK nationals will be land locked in the EU country

where they resided on the date of the UK's withdrawal as the Joint

Report does not include the right to intra-EU mobility after Brexit.

A: It is fair to say that UK citizens are unlikely to be “landlocked”, although the extent to which

they will be able to work, establish a business, study, claim benefits or get health care outside

their host state has yet to be decided.

It's the final item on the Dec. joint report and yet to be discussed as it's outside the scope of the phase 1 negotiations, I can imagine the solution being it left to individual countries to determine for themselves.

[Debra]

Cathar Tours I can go back to the UK for up to two years at the moment without losing my rights.  If the withdrawal agreement is ratified with the citizens' rights part as it's been agreed so far, that will be extended to five years. 

However, there is an ambiguity about what happens to those who aren't resident in the EU on brexit day.  My son, for instance, is no longer resident here but retains a right to return for up to two years (if he'd moved after brexit day it would be five years) but does he still retain that right if he's not resident here on the cut off date? 

As I've said, I've seen analysis of the agreement that argue both sides.  One argument is that he would be covered by implication because he has EU Citizenship rights on brexit day, even if he isn't currently here.  The other is that he'd have no rights, not being resident on brexit day, and so would have to return under whatever the new rules are if he came back after the UK had left.  The rules could be the EU third country  national rules in existence now or a special set of rules agreed during the future relationship negotiations. 

Under third country national rules there are family reunification rights for 'dependant' offspring over the age of 21 (which he will be next year) so all may not be lost (as far as I can tell I'd have to be sending him  maintenance payments in the UK that he needs to live on).  However, under those rules there is still the requirement for me to have 'stable' income - which as I explained, takes out a good part of my income as foreign rental income isn't classed as stable in France.  So I could have permanent residence rights myself and the nature of my income may be irrelevant to my own right to stay here and to the rights of my children who are still living here - but if my eldest son wants to return to France it could be the third country national rules that will apply to our right for reunification. 

That's the way the current agreement is written - future family reunifications will be assessed under local immigration law, which in France's case is the EU third country national rules.

[Debra]

AnOther not all of us would be landlocked anyway if the agreement that has been made so far is all that is agreed.  It's those of us who are not working and are self sufficient who could be landlocked but even then, only with regards to moving to live permanently in another EU member state.  We'd still have rights to visit for up to 3 months accorded to us via our EU permanent resident status.

The Q&A answer to that question on the Europa site has been amended since it was first published, when it answered in great detail about the rights we could have as third country nationals.  Apparently British in Europe requested this change because they felt that to start talking about third country national rules in relation to us was premature and might panic people (or maybe they thought it would remove the momentum to argue for total freedom of movement for us?).  I actually thought it would be helpful to a lot of people (just not me and others who aren't working or students :) ).

[Debra]

See this document on page 9 for the originally published question and answer (I'd copy and paste it but I seem to lose all the formatting when I do that) : https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/2017-12-12_qa_citizens_rights.pdf

[Debra]

One of the things some campaigners are hoping for is to continue as we do now and not have a cds but only have to prove our right to stay by 'other means' as and when necessary.  In my view that is impractical because everyone will end up in my position with the ever growing folder - the wheelbarrow method.  This is because even those who only need to provide the latest five years' documentation to prove their rights under the withdrawal agreement will then have to add to that file every six months with ongoing documentation to keep up the continuity of residence proof after brexit.  Much easier for all concerned to just insist that we will need a carte de sejour.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Debra.

 

That was the first reasoned justification I have seen for applying for a C.D.S. and makes complete sense.

[/quote]

I am sorry that you do not consider my reasons justified.

In the OP"I simply said that

"It look as if my carte de séjour will be be converted into the new

document:

those already holding a permanent residence document issued under Union

law at the specified date will have that document converted into the new

document free of charge, subject only to verification of identity, a

criminality and security check and confirmation of ongoing residence"

I didn't say that anybody else needed to do it, but the comment was aimed at those who hold  that the CdS will become invalid after Brexit.

Originally I had no choice. It was obligatory in 1995, and a damned sight harder to get than the procedures that nomoss and ANO have described as the present process.

I have renewed it twice; the first time was for its convenience as a card I could carry which was understood by the French anywhere, and this second time very simply because it short circuits all the Business of having to produce documents and justifications that will be needed for any new system that is put in place.

I don't think that is in any way changes my rights. it is a bit like the carte vitale, a useful bit of plastic to confirm what those rights are.

In re-ne

[Debra]

Re AnOther's comment about my situation not being common: there are actually quite a lot of people who can't use their latest five years here as their qualifying period for permanent residence rights.  In my case it was because when I separated from my ex I had a drastic drop in income for a while (unluckily, my tenant gave notice the month after he went back to the UK, so that added to the usual problems of separating). 

After five years, income as an EU Citizen is irrelevant - but to get

your permanent residence rights recognised you have to prove that for

five qualifying years, you had the right level of income or were working or a student (with limits as to how long you can be unemployed and still retain the right to stay).

Some people have had a period of unemployment which is longer than is allowed under EU freedom of movement rules and need to use an earlier period because of that. 

Quite a lot of pensioners may be affected because the UK state pension isn't a high enough income to be legally resident ( apparently there are a quite a lot of people who only have that as their income) once they are over age 65.  So they could have come here with enough income under age 65 but that was no longer enough once they were over 65 (more income needed over age 65 as an EU Citizen in France because ASPA, the income support for those over 65, is higher than RSA, the income support for people under age 65). 

So there may be a lot of people who have to do what I did and prove a 5 year period from years ago and then prove continuity of residence since then - and if they don't get a card, keep storing up that continuity of residence documentation just in case they are asked to prove their rights - not just those who had a  marriage breakdown that affected their financial situation.

[Debra]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Chancer"]

Debra.

 

That was the first reasoned justification I have seen for applying for a C.D.S. and makes complete sense.

[/quote]

 I have renewed it twice; the first time was for its convenience as a card I could carry which was understood by the French anywhere, and this second time very simply because it short circuits all the Business of having to produce documents and justifications that will be needed for any new system that is put in place.

[/quote]Exactly.  All we should need at renewal is proof of continuity of residence.  Some prefectures accept avis d'impots for the duration of the previous card alone.  Some require a utility bill per semester to prove you've lived here since that card was issued.  A lot less than I needed to get the card in the first place.  Plus the criminality check - which I think my prefecture already does as it's one of those who require fingerprints (if not they could easily do it from what they already have).

[nomoss]

[quote user="Debra"]nomoss British Citizenship can only be passed down by one generation if you're not born there. .........

[/quote]

Oh dear. It seems the rules have changed yet again since our children had to establish their UK citizenship when renewing their passports, which was around 1985, when they were both studying in England. I remember the approximate time, as I had to post the certificates to one of them from Spain, to pass on to the other, and was very nervous about them being lost.

As I mentioned previously, I was born outside the UK and, in about 1980, had to produce my Father's birth and marriage certificates to renew my British passport showing right of abode in the UK.

Both our children had to produce my birth and marriage certificates, as well as those for my father, to renew their passports with right of residence, but have both renewed them since, with only their old passport being required.

That indicates that, in 1985 or so, that Brtish Citizenship could still be passed down two generations, and I remember reading this in the official pamphlets at the time.

[Debra]

A lot changed with the British Nationality Act 1981, which took effect in January 1983.  Wikipedia has the history of it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law

[Debra]

British Citizenship can be acquired in the following ways:

1. lex soli:
   By birth in the UK or a qualified British Overseas Territory to a
   parent who is a British citizen at the time of the birth, or to a parent
   who is settled in the UK or that Overseas Territory
2. lex sanguinis:
   By birth abroad, which constitutes "by descent" if one of the parents
   is a British citizen otherwise than by descent (for example by birth,
   adoption, registration or naturalisation in the UK). British citizenship
   by descent is only transferable to one generation down from the parent
   who is a British citizen otherwise than by descent, if the child is born
   abroad.
3. By naturalisation
4. By registration
5. By adoption

So for my son's kids to be British he either needs to reproduce with a British woman who was born in Britain or ship the mother of his children off to the UK or an Overseas Territory to give birth.

It sounds like it gets very complicated for people born before 1 January 1983.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Debra"]British Citizenship can be acquired in the following ways:

1. lex soli:
   By birth in the UK or a qualified British Overseas Territory to a
   parent who is a British citizen at the time of the birth, or to a parent
   who is settled in the UK or that Overseas Territory
2. lex sanguinis:
   By birth abroad, which constitutes "by descent" if one of the parents
   is a British citizen otherwise than by descent (for example by birth,
   adoption, registration or naturalisation in the UK). British citizenship
   by descent is only transferable to one generation down from the parent
   who is a British citizen otherwise than by descent, if the child is born
   abroad.
3. By naturalisation
4. By registration
5. By adoption

So for my son's kids to be British he either needs to reproduce with a British woman who was born in Britain or ship the mother of his children off to the UK or an Overseas Territory to give birth.

It sounds like it gets very complicated for people born before 1 January 1983.

[/quote]

"It sounds like it gets very complicated for people born before 1 January 1983"

It can't get much more confusing than what's above that sentence [blink]

However, under the present rules, our kids would have British Citizenship by virtue of their mother's being born in the UK, even though I wasn't.

At the time their passports with Citizenship stated were issued only the father's status was considered.

As I said in my long post above, the goalposts are being moved all the time, so better to get things sorted while the chance exists.

[YCCMB]

My kids had a similar issue but haven't ever had a problem renewing British passports, once we had jumped through hoops for the first ones. And that was compounded a little by the fact that their paternal grandfather wasn't British, either.

Their father became a naturalized British citizen in the 1970's and we had to produce the birth certs and marriage certs of both ourselves as parents and Mr. Betty's parents ( his mum was British).

Since then, both our sons have renewed their passports more than once without problems and son #2 has 2 UK passports on the go without any issue.