Two minutes of your time

[Russethouse]

I heard something about 'economic' conscription last night, (Question Time)

In some communities,(esp in Scotland, this was vis a vis the Black Watch) where there is high unemployment and the army offers a chance of a training this is very much the case. I believe it also has relevance to many American troops too.

[Miki]

To quote a Frenchman I met some years ago, "Pour comprendre la France il faut comprendre Verdun."

I for one can certainly understand the French position ever since those absolutely horrific times in WW1. I personally am not sure that holds firm today Dick but I assume he was talking of those times affecting how the French praise their own war efforts, and their view on conflicts after those days, which of course would be quite understandable ?

But many people do think of Petain in WW2 who led the right-wing government of Vichy France. Siding with Hitler, hoping to save French lives and indeed thinking it was only a short time until Britain succumbed to the Nazis.

The famous revolutionary principles of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" being replaced by "Work, Family, Fatherland" and it not a very pretty history at all for many French I know to want to remember. We lived on the edge of Vichy for a while and no one wished to be thought of as being once part of Vichy France. Read about the French RNP and the PPF both styled upon Nazi principles.

Gerhard Hirschfeld on his views of Vichy France;

Collaboration had not prevented the worst from happening but rather had made it possible and in any case paved the road to Auschwitz.

We will all have differing views and none precisely understood or correct...............

 

 

[SaligoBay]

Mistral said: I explained that we remembered people who had died in all wars; "so we can avoid such a waste again" he said, without prompting. I realised I had given him the British point of view, not the French one which is much more based on the end of the first world war and on the French victory. (yes, I said "French" - the first time I went to a rememberance service in France, it started with the words "La france a gangné la guerre" - I was a bit surprised)

Well said, Mistral!  It's a big difference.  Now, for those of you who seem to think the French are somehow "better" at Nov 11 than the Brits.....

.....we went to Aigues Mortes on Thursday 11th, lots of tourist shops open, most of the supermarkets on the way looked pretty busy too.   The wind was bitterly cold, so we looked for a coffee indoors, but the only option was in the smoky bars behind the cafés, so we thought that rather than wait in the cold for an hour till 11, we'd carry on to Stes Maries de la Mer.

We got there at 10.50, but it was heaving, absolutely mobbed.  By the time we found a place to park, it was well after 11, and it would have taken another 10 minutes to walk back to where the remembrance ceremony was taking place.   Why was it so busy, why were there thousands of people heading in the opposite direction?   To watch the bulls being run through the streets!

So we missed it.  I was very disappointed, but what can you do?   Real French life got in the way!  

My son was enthusiastic about it last year, because an ancient soldier (he'd seen Hitler, guaranteed to impress children!) came to the school to talk about the wars.  That was CM2, but this year in collège, not a word about it.   

[Dick Smith]

2 things. TU said " History is a funny thing isn't it." Not usually, in my experience. And because you don't understand something doesn't mean that it isn't important. Most historians consider that the American Civil War and the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 were the first industrialised wars.

The 'comprendre Verdun' idea needs some unpacking. Verdun was a huge shock to the French, with well over 377,000 casualties in almost ten months of vicious fighting of whom 162,000 were killed. If you compare this to the Somme the British Empire lost 420,000 of whom a third were killed or missing. The French also lost 200,000 men at the Somme - which was going on at the same time as Verdun. Unlike the British the French rotated their troops through the big battles, so that almost all the French army was involved. The end result for the French was an army mutiny and the loss of half a million men in a year - and bear in mind they had lost half a million in 1914.

This sacrifice seared the national consciousness, and the concept of 'lost generation' grew up. Almost as though France had been fatally weakened by the blow and could not withstand another. General political turmoil - itself prompted by the war in part - further weakened French politics between the wars. When the threat of war came about in 1938/39 there was a poor will to resist, people were defeatist and appeasing. This led to the invasion of 1940 and a period of collaboration which is still not fully resolved. The divisions were still there in the fifties, and of course Algeria didn't help, by highlighting a different kind of weakness in the face of inevitable change.

France's total losses in WW1 were 1,350,000 killed and 3-4 million disabled. In WW2 201,000 killed, 400,000 wounded and 350,000 civilians killed. That gives a total of about two million killed and four million plus wounded, many to the point of permanent disability, in a thirty-year period.

The British lost heavily, too, but apart from bombings in WW2 the overwhelming majority of the losses were overseas and there was no invasion or fighting in the mainland UK. Most French losses were in France, on French soil. In both wars large areas of France were ravaged - some areas around Verdun are still uninhabitable. Now factor all of that into the national psyche.

[Mutts]

My French grandfather died of his injuries in WW1. Local memorials show that he died in 1914.....and again in 1916!

My English grandfather was discharged on medical grounds and in WWII he was interned in St Denis. My father who was dual nationality French/English and brought up in France shot a couple of Germans when he tried to cross the line. After joining the Vichy French and serving in North Africa, he was flown to London and recruited by British Military Intelligence. I'm told it's 99.9% certain he was with MI 6 and possibly with MI 9 - Escape and Evasion. In late 1943 to mid 1944, he was parachuted into France and I'm doing all I can to find out what he did. I have two letters from the 1940's from residents of Roanne/Riorges strongly suggesting his involvement with the resistance. One letter states his suitcase and contents were left in Roanne.

I'm currently trying to make contact with someone/anyone in Roanne who is interested in WWII and who would help with my research as I'd like to visit there next summer and find out more.

If anyone is interested, some of my research documents are on http://jonesfamily.activeservice.co.uk

Follow links to Robert Andre Jones.

 

[Georgina]

Actually, when we stopped in the shopping mall I had to think initially what it was for, as there are so many horrible things that have happened since and they all go through your mind as well.

Georgina

[Miki]

Yes it was as I though Dick, what has gone before in places, such as Verdun or Vichy France that have shaped up just how the French view things. We cannot think like them for we have not witnessed such things in Great Britain.

Now factor all of that into the national psyche

Now for the above line, I must rest my weary head. For many, many years, I have attempted to find the raison d'etre for the French and each time I feel a breakthrough has been made, I meet someone else who completely defies the logic I had recently hoped,  had solved this "strange" (read somewhat different to us) nation of people..........................then I wonder if they know what to make of our country and perhaps of me 

 

[Iceni]

"My thoughts are with the poor soldiers who were sent to Iraq and that is on a daily basis"

Sorry TU but I don't see why "poor soldiers". They are not conscripts, they CHOSE to join the armed forces/TA which can mean going off to kill people and risk being killed.

As for 11/11 - to paraphrase Blackadder last night - how many died so that Haig could move his drinks cabinet 15 yards closer to Germany ?  The French remember the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month every year, the UK doesn't - just a different way of honouring the dead.

John

 

 

[Teamedup]

So have I got this right, the 3 million british volunteers pre circumscription in WW1 got their dues if killed and they aren't the ones who are honnored, we just celebrate the ones who were forced into it after 1916. I don't think so.

Come on, these volunteers signed up to be soldiers just like current day soldiers do, no one made them either. 

[Miki]

The French remember the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month every year, the UK doesn't

John,

In recent times, the UK does in fact, have a rather large remembrance on the 11th, witness this year. We do all rather know Remembrance Sunday more and it is of course a larger affair, so in fact we are now having 2 days of remembrance. The UK does not call it a public holiday though.

 

 

[Redcap]

[quote]......being from a military background it goes without saying that I wanted to attend Sorry Bob but that is not really, always the case is it. My Father and some of his mates, all old soldiers...[/quote]

Hi Miki,

I do know where you are coming from. I understand why many ex service do not attend, I went through a stage for some years when I refused to attend or even watch the ceremonies on TV.  I joined the Army at 15 yrs, now at 49, I've finished 30yrs (police & army), and now at last in France!  I never experienced anything like the things that our fathers/grandfathers did, though I've had a slight taste.  I now go again, not for me, but because I still greatly respect what they all did whether they wanted to or not.  I feel we should not forget.

  As for present day, (Iraq etc) well again we have young people in the forces looking for action and excitement and only too willing to go.  When they are older, they will realise how they have been used!  When all the captured terrorists have been released as part of a peace treaty!!  (Sounds familiar?)

Regards,

Bob

[Miki]

Bob,

Yes I agree with all your points and it is horrible to think that what one thought one joined up for can be destroyed by a politicians whim or a moment of power madness. There has hardly been a war I have totally agreed with since I don't know how long. This one has been a total farce from the day Bush decided to tell the UN to go stuff itself.

USA have had enough experience to know how wars like this can end up and I would not be surprised to one day, see them walk away leaving Iraq in no mans land as far as democracy is concerned. Funny world isn't it, it used to be communism that was said to be forced on the world now.......................

[Paolo]

"Funny world isn't it, it used to be communism that was said to be forced on the world now..."

Good point - it expresses the unease a lot of people feel about what Bush is up to. Same rhetoric, same keywords, same polarising effect on the world as during the cold war. I suppose if you dip in to the history books it's nothing new.

Paolo

[Dick Smith]

TU wrote:

"So have I got this right, the 3 million british volunteers pre circumscription in WW1 got their dues if killed and they aren't the ones who are honnored, we just celebrate the ones who were forced into it after 1916. I don't think so.

Come on, these volunteers signed up to be soldiers just like current day soldiers do, no one made them either. "

I don't know how many were circumscripted, I suppose it depended on religion.

But to the serious point, there were three armies before conscription came in. One was the old Regular army, made up of two-battalion regiments, which provided for the British Expeditionary Force of 1914. This army was gone by December 1914. The next force was the Territorials. These men were volunteers and part-time soldiers. They did not have to fight overseas, but almost all volunteered to do so. All of these men were perfectly standard soldiers, who had joined up voluntarily. The battles of 1915 saw for them.

The third group were the 'Kitchener Armies' (3 in all). These men did not volunteer to join the army as a career but 'for the duration'. They volunteered for patriotic reasons, mostly, although in some depressed areas some joined for the pay. These men were idealistic, often well educated and successful, skilled workers. In fact so many skilled workers volunteered that some had to be sent home. This army fought (and died) at the Somme and later battles.

Conscription came in in 1916, far too early to provide men for the battles of that year. The bulk of the army were K2 and K3 (second and third Kitchener volunteer armies) until 1917.

So your statement is profoundly historically incorrect. The volunteers were not joining up as ordinary soldiers at all, they were answering their country's call for men in a time of war. Quite different.

[letrangere]

As a 'ps' to the above, there were so many volunteers in the weeks and months immediately after the outbreak of WW1 that the authorities didn't know what to do with them all!  They volunteered out of a sense of what was then called 'duty' and they continued to volunteer in large numbers even after towns and villages of Britain were flooded with returning War wounded.  Read first hand accounts and many young men will say that it was because they saw so many chaps coming back from the front scarred for life, with amputated limbs that they wanted to get over there even quicker.  And when conscription was eventually introduced there were still enormous social pressures on men to sign up.  Women actively heckled men in the streets if they weren't wearing khaki.  Not having joined-up was widely - almost universally - viewed as a sign of cowardice.

Society was so very different during that period that it's very hard for us today to even try and understand.

M

 

[Creusois]

The point has once again been lost.   Remembrance Day is just that - a day to remember the fallen of ALL countries in ALL wars.  It matters not one jot which war we pick on to act as the marker stone - be it the first world war, second world war, Korea, Aden, Iraq -  even the Napoleonic wars!   It is simply two minutes set aside on one day during the year for the nation to remember the sacrifice of life made by so many people over the years.   My grandfather, father and uncles came across from the wheat fields of Canada to fight in both world wars - they had no idea where they were going but they knew why - they volunteered in answer to the call to defend the King and the Commonwealth, much like the saxons did for Harold Godwinson, I suppose - so we should remember our history and be proud.

We attended our local village ceremony on Thursday - one Englishman, his wife and a visiting cousin - the villagers had honoured us by inviting us and we accepted with pride.  No mention was made of the Commonwealth, Americans, Germans, Russians or any other nations' contribution in any of the speeches - the mayor said that each country must shoulder the task of remembering its' own dead in their own way - and so we should!   But those old Frenchmen who attended the ceremony in the cold and rain remembered what sacrifices our countries had made for them - and I can assure you that they were grateful.    Some were curious to know how the British remembered their dead, so we returned the compliment and tomorrow some villagers will come to our house to watch the ceremony at the Cenotaph live on BBC1.

[Pushkin]

A very interesting and informative exchange of views.  Each of us has freedom of choice on whether or not to take part in an act of remembrance.  Freedom is a very precious thing and often comes at a very heavy price.  It seems to me a simple courtesy to honour the memory of those who, in two disastrous world wars, secured that freedom for us.  There are other issues.  UK politicians have an unbroken record of treating our returning military personnel disgracefully.  The format is always the same.  During the conflict our Armed Forces are all heroes.  Afterwards, they are abandonned, often derided, inevitably betrayed.  Those suffering from Gulf War Syndrome are a case in point, and I hope and believe that the new US research will prove beyond doubt that there is indeed severe illness directly attributable to service in the Iraq theatre.  So it does no harm for politicians to see ordinary folk demonstrating their gratitude for the sacrifices made by our Armed Forces.  We may be ordinary, but we have a right to be heard. It should also show those same politicians that it is their duty to ensure that disputes are resolved without going to war.  Pray forgive my excursion into Cloud Cukoo Land here.  I am reminded of a wonderful man, a vicar in the small English village where I grew up.  He had been an Army padre during World War II, and always as near to the front line as he could get.  He always insisted that at the Remembrance Sunday service, orders and decorations be worn by members of the congregation who had them.    From the pulpit he would damn all politicians, bankers, industrialists and generals who were guilty of leading us into war.  It was the same each year. Damned good stuff, and damned right.  

 

Pete (not Sue)

[Mistral]

Remembrance Day is just that - a day to remember the fallen of ALL countries in ALL wars. 

Not in France. 11th november is the day you commemorate the end of the First world war and just that.