Land of opportunity

[Val_2]

LOL - Just thinking back to when we lived in the UK and the local Pakistanis were buying up old ambulances and making them into mobile kebab vans. One used to go past every night and give us a laugh as it read Kebab onthe side followed by the word -ulance. Obviously they couldn't get the rest of the word ambulance scrubbed off and it followed the word kebab. I think you would have needed an ambulance too if you had seen the hygiene state of the thing when it was parked up outside the pubs in town.

[RayB]

[quote]It really is a very odd thing! In the UK, kebabs are regarded as only fit for dogs and drunks. In France, the country that regards itself as the culinary masters of the universe, kebabs are regar...[/quote]

** I just dont see anything admirable about changing things that people from UK, USA, and several other countries are coming to France to seek because they have lost these things in their own countries.**

Exactly! Couldn't agree more!!

[Viv]

You have missed my point entirely.

My original post was just hi-lighting the differences between the UK and France in terms of the business set ups here.

UK seems to have every business/ shop going under the sun, France does not.

I was just wondering, therefore if France was a land of opportunity for those with money , determination and vision or whatever! 

It was merely an observation not a demand for change!

[Miki]

Slightly bizarre isn’t it, shouting for me to Chill and then going off on one !

And what assumptions did I make about you then ? Mine was a general reply about the types I described. I found it a little bit strange that you accuse me of making assumptions about you !!

So each country must stay exactly how you (or others) want them to stay, regardless of what the actual inhabitants want to happen and to live in a total time warp, pleasurable as that might seem, for many in East Germany and other Eastern bloc countries, you will note that they didn’t really take to it in the end !

I find it all Extremely admirable, to see the multi cultural influences in many places, whether the British (or Americans) add anything to the French culture here, is for others to decide, I am not sure what it does but hope it doesn’t harm it..

I don’t suppose anyone in Britain would now want the delicious Indian/Bangladeshi meals to be sent back whence they came, nor of course the Chinese influence on meals, as it was not "admirable" to allow change to happen to British food and for the demand of the immigrants who longed for such things………..

Surely we are all entitled to want some home comforts or to want something we desire, is it de rigeur to pretend to be French but have to secretly desire that you had a Starbucks in Saint Malo or a Marks in Rennes but, dare not admit it for fear of the Anglo/French admiration society denouncing your reasons for being here. ?

“Oh and by the way Miki - I came to live in FRANCE not to escape Britain. I have no interest in other countries spoiled or unspoiled except as a holiday destination”

And what the heck was that about ? Are you reading something where nothing exists, whilst having a wee dram ?

[NannyP]

[quote]It puzzles me why people want to leave the UK and live in France .......................and then want to turn France into another version of the UK!!!!! Perhaps the French like things just the way the...[/quote]

Phew, I was beginning to think I'd joined the wrong forum

I want to move to France, because it is France. I hope it takes many years to leave the time warp, preferably 30, cos I'll probably be dead by then.

I live in North Devon, moving here to escape the  manic South East of England. I have heard fellow incmers complain that, "there is no infrastructure!" Yes, I think, thank goodness, that's why North Devon has remained as beautiful and peaceful as it is.

Please don't make France another UK, where shopping, eating and entertainment is non stop.

[Miki]

[quote]You have missed my point entirely. My original post was just hi-lighting the differences between the UK and France in terms of the business set ups here. UK seems to have every business/ shop going ...[/quote]

Quite right I agree but some people care to use anything posted to make their own irrelevant point (to the actual question that started the thread) rather than start a new thread and I am afraid, although trying at first to say how difficult it all as for change here, was led astray by others, who indeed wanted to put an entirely different slant on what was not your question, apologies but.....

[Viv]

No apologies needed Miki

I think you were on my wavelength at least!

[SaligoBay]

Please don't make France another UK, where shopping, eating and entertainment is non stop.

I think you're crediting "us" with too much power!   It's up to the French what France becomes, non?  At the moment they crowd into McDo, they crowd to see American films, they crowd into American-style shopping centres on Saturdays.  

But they still down tools at 12 to have lunch!  It's more important than any of the other 10 Commandments.

Viva, your answer is somewhere between the lines of all that's been written.  France is not the country to make a fast buck in, no matter how good your idea, because the system itself is against you.  And some cultural things will be against you as well, like the rigid eating times.   

But I hope you have fun trying! 

[Laotze]

Firstly Viva and Miki  - the thread did go off at a tangent from the original posting. SaligoBay brought up the point about not being able to eat outside certain times, and I and someone else disputed that.

Who said this "France is stuck in a time-warp where business and daily living is concerned. Nothing changes and new ideas don't seem to be encouraged however good they may be - everyone hangs onto how they have been brought up from the style of meals through to hairstyles. Perhaps my children's generation will bring France into the 21st century with new ideas and systems"???  My post addressed that point - If thats the way the French want things its fine by me! I am living in THEIR country!

"Slightly bizarre isn’t it, shouting for me to Chill and then going off on one !" I dont think I was going off on one - merely responding to you - in a slightly politer tone than you used to me.

"And what assumptions did I make about you then ? Mine was a general reply about the types I described. I found it a little bit strange that you accuse me of making assumptions about you !!"  Silly me - I assumed when you quoted my message and then went on about my stress FREE life that this was an assumption you were making about me???

"So each country must stay exactly how you (or others) want them to stay, regardless of what the actual inhabitants want to happen "  Actually my point was EXACTLY the opposite - I dont think people should come to live in a country and then expect or wish the country to change to suit them.

"I find it all Extremely admirable, to see the multi cultural influences in many places, whether the British (or Americans) add anything to the French culture here, is for others to decide, I am not sure what it does but hope it doesn’t harm it".  I think all cultures have the capability to bring both good and bad consequences and any influx of a particular nationality is bound to have an impact. I just deplore a large number of people who come to live in France, moan about the way things are and how much better it is "back home" - and then after a few years go back home.

"I don’t suppose anyone in Britain would now want the delicious Indian/Bangladeshi meals to be sent back whence they came, nor of course the Chinese influence on meals, as it was not "admirable" to allow change to happen to British food and for the demand of the immigrants who longed for such things………..
Surely we are all entitled to want some home comforts or to want something we desire, is it de rigeur to pretend to be French but have to secretly desire that you had a Starbucks in Saint Malo or a Marks in Rennes but, dare not admit it for fear of the Anglo/French admiration society denouncing your reasons for being here. ? "  Got no problem of immigrants bringing a taste of home with them, setting up outlets so they can get whatever it is that they desire - this happens in all countires with immigrant populations. This seems to me to be somewhat different to expecting the indigenous polulation to embrace whatever it is the incomers enjoy. They may or they may not.

"“Oh and by the way Miki - I came to live in FRANCE not to escape Britain. I have no interest in other countries spoiled or unspoiled except as a holiday destination”
And what the heck was that about ? Are you reading something where nothing exists, whilst having a wee dram "  No Miki - only responding to your your sneer " Best get the map out for the next unspoiled country for the next generation of Brits to find"  Oh and in answer to your assumption about having a wee dram - I dont! If you are unable to be minimally polite I would much prefer you to leave me out of the argument. I have put forward my point of view - I accept that yours is different which is fine by me.

[Miki]

Sorry but I found all that quite difficult to comprehend.

I answered your post without animosity and at no time meant it to be personal and if you read something else in to it, well quite honestly "tant pis". I am afraid you have tugged, pulled and shoved most of my postings completely out of context and although I can see much in your last post to show contradiction, it just is not worth it cause some folks have a great capability of twisting posts "out of shape" so nothing makes sense in the end.

This answer for instance makes no sense at all.

Miki "So each country must stay exactly how you (or others) want them to stay, regardless of what the actual inhabitants want to happen "

Laotze "...Actually my point was EXACTLY the opposite - I dont think people should come to live in a country and then expect or wish the country to change to suit them"

My point, was that none of us can expect the "country folks and their environment" of any country to stay the same as immigrants want it to and in the style they want. As SB says, they will change it as they want, not as anyone else demands and again, we are ALL of us entitled to wish for things we would like to see or have in France. We don't want to permanently change the face of France, they are capable of doing that themselves and anyone wanting a few things they like to have can, oh so nicely assist the passing of life in France.

In nearly 40 years, I can look back at a massive amount of change in France. Villages, cities, towns and small communes on the whole have decisively changed and I totally expect the next decade to show even more change. I can live with change and in fact love to see it, to sit and stare at village life will never be for me, nor my kids ! Waiting for.....no way !

[SaligoBay]

Got no problem of immigrants bringing a taste of home with them, setting up outlets so they can get whatever it is that they desire - this happens in all countires with immigrant populations. This seems to me to be somewhat different to expecting the indigenous polulation to embrace whatever it is the incomers enjoy. They may or they may not.

With respect, Laotze, this is not the message I get from these forums.  It seems to be okay for (e.g.) Turkish people to set up kebab shops, Arabs to set up Arab mini-marts, but the merest whiff of British incomers doing something British (play bridge or - horror- speak English) is met with general indignation at the cheek of it all. 

The Arabs brought couscous, the Brits bring crumble.  Each one changes France a tiny bit, and I see no problem with either of them.

[Christine Animal]

Is it my browser, my glasses or me?  I can't read a word of that... just the last post.

[Laotze]

Why are you whispering saligoBay - is it a secret? OK I wont tell!

What you say is right - just two small points. Where I lived in the Uk there were a large population of Italians who brought a lot of aspects of their culture with them - but they also integrated with the locals and there were no problems. There were also a large population of Indians - no problem over their food but they were perceived as not wanting to integrate with the locals and of denigrating the way of life in their adopted country and this was met with resentment. In the years I spent teaching foreigners English I saw some very sad cases for eg a very elderly lady who had lived several decades in the Uk and raised her children there and still could not speak more than 2 words of English as her life was spent amongst her "own kind" which was ok until her husband died, her kids had moved away and she could not even communicate with her next door neighbour to ask for help when she fell ill. And her next door neighbour felt that she had been slighted for all the years the husband was alive and suddenly she was required to be neighbourly. I know that where you live things are different but here it is very rural and over the years several British families have been made welcome in a very tiny village. In the last couple of years there are some (not all) who are coming over, not to be in France, but to get away from their country. The French can cope with the jelly and mint sauce yearnings - they (in our area) are miffed with the cliques who regard the locals as Disney characters and the way of life as "quaint" and in need of dynamic Brit (or American) influence to bring them into the 21st century but spend all their time socialising with each other, totally unable to communicate with the people in whose country they are living UNLESS the natives speak English!! And I am now seeing a different reaction than amusement when non French speaking Brits struggle to get some message across. "WHY are you living here if you dont speak the language?" Change will come to France but I feel it ill behoves us as foreigners and guests in a country to denigrate the country's culture or its people. Obviously others on this forum see it in a different light but I still feel that as an incomer if one is looking for a "land of opportunity" and a raft of entrepreneurs etc, one should look elsewhere in the world.

[Russethouse]

I agree with much of what you say Laotze, my own French language skills are poor and I know that it would be an uphill struggle to have any meaningful relaxed conversation with a person speaking French at a normal speed, although I could probably rake up enough to deal with officialdom for my survival if required. That would leave me in the position of relying on other English speakers for being social, I guess a lot of people are in a similar position.

However as far as France changing, it is not only immigrants who may see this as a desirable thing, surely recent government moves have shown that the French themselves know that unless they encourage enterprise and adjust the employment laws, France will just stagnate and become less of a 'player' in the Modern world. They also have to address unemployment particularly among the young.

Of course Brits will start enterprises where they see opportunity, nothing wrong with that, if the French don't like those businesses, if they are contrary to there customs and habits in a way that doesn't suit them then they will not succeed.

France isn't a Disneyland theme park, it has to move forward -just like everywhere else...........the test is in the 'how'

[Laotze]

[quote]I agree with much of what you say Laotze, my own French language skills are poor and I know that it would be an uphill struggle to have any meaningful relaxed conversation with a person speaking Frenc...[/quote]

Thats exactly it Gay - change from within. Hopefully learning from the mistakes made in the countries who have followed helter skelter where the USA leads - and then have found that what has been lost along the way cannot be replaced. Hopefully France will still be France, and Italy, Spain, etc etc all retain the essence of their cultures and not all become indistinguishable from each other in a blanket slick marketing operations.

As far as your language skills are concerned you get brownie points for trying!

[Motorhead]

When I said a British kebab shop all I meant was one that did pizzas as well. This is something I've not noticed in France and there's nothing particularly Brittish about pizza anyway.

Motorhead.........still on diet!

[Hoddy]

You could be right, Motorhead. There's a pizza van near us which does a roaring trade among the locals, even in the winter.

Hoddy

[SaligoBay]

"WHY are you living here if you dont speak the language?"

Because they can?   It's all very well feeling superior and indignant, but it's their money, it's their life.  There are worse problems in the world.  There are worse problems in France!

Change will come to France but I feel it ill behoves us as foreigners and guests in a country to denigrate the country's culture or its people. Obviously others on this forum see it in a different light but I still feel that as an incomer if one is looking for a "land of opportunity" and a raft of entrepreneurs etc, one should look elsewhere in the world.

Who's denigrating?  Do you really feel that your status is "foreign guest"?   I'm sorry to hear that, it can't be very nice for you.  

[Viv]

I don't feel as though I am a guest either. I would feel as though I was on permanent holiday and I haven't got permanent holiday money!

I have chosen to make this my home for better or worse and I must add that I love living here

Yes it makes life easier if you speak the langauge but when we couldn't we still got by   However,I do think there is a certain snobbery amongst some Brits as though those of us who come to France with poor language skills are somehow letting the side down .

[RayB]

[quote]"WHY are you living here if you dont speak the language?" Because they can? It's all very well feeling superior and indignant, but it's their money, it's their life. There are worse problems in t...[/quote]

**"WHY are you living here if you dont speak the language?"

Because they can? It's all very well feeling superior and indignant, but it's their money, it's their life. There are worse problems in the world. There are worse problems in France!

Change will come to France but I feel it ill behoves us as foreigners and guests in a country to denigrate the country's culture or its people. Obviously others on this forum see it in a different light but I still feel that as an incomer if one is looking for a "land of opportunity" and a raft of entrepreneurs etc, one should look elsewhere in the world.

Who's denigrating? Do you really feel that your status is "foreign guest"? I'm sorry to hear that, it can't be very nice for you.**

Perhaps we may be getting into a bit of semantics here.

Language -

Probably anyone anywhere can live in a country without speaking the language. I am sad to say that the US is filling up with them it seems. First of all, I am terrible at learning other languages but I try. My lack of mobility limits my contacts with day-to-day exposure except for friends and neighbors and doesn't help either. I improve a little each day and my wife is doing great! Whatever the country, if a person wants to get the most out of living there, language is the first step to understanding what is going on around them.

Guest -

I think the conotation here, as far as I can tell, is in reference to those moving to a new country and trying to tell them how they should live. I certainly wouldn't do it as a 'guest' in someone else's home and the simile would apply, I think. If nothing else, to me, it is just common courtesy I would expect in reverse.

[Laotze]

[quote]"WHY are you living here if you dont speak the language?" Because they can? It's all very well feeling superior and indignant, but it's their money, it's their life. There are worse problems in t...[/quote]

Its not me asking why people are living in France without the means to communicate - its the French. I am not either superior or indignant, neither am I a CITIZEN of this country - therefore I am a GUEST. And yes - it is actually nice for me because being considerate of the sensibilities of my host country I find that in turn I have been made welcome. Those that are being "superior" are those who consider French culture ro be in need of changing. And it seems to me that those shouting loudest for change are those who come to the country with the least understanding of the people, the language  and the culture in the first place.

[SaligoBay]

Nope, I still don't get this "guest" and "host" thing, it sounds a bit weirdly servile to me.   

I speak French, I have French friends and neighbours, but I brought my own brain with me.  If they complain about something French (weight of school cartables, Sarkozy, whatever) do you really think I'm going to say "sorry, I have no right to express an opinion on this French issue, because I am a mere guest in your fine country"?     Don't think so!!!!

[RayB]

[quote]Its not me asking why people are living in France without the means to communicate - its the French. I am not either superior or indignant, neither am I a CITIZEN of this country - therefore I am a GU...[/quote]

**And it seems to me that those shouting loudest for change are those who come to the country with the least understanding of the people, the language and the culture in the first place**

That says it all, Laotze!

[Miki]

Laotze"....Its not me asking why people are living in France without the means to communicate - its the French. I am not either superior or indignant, neither am I a CITIZEN of this country - therefore I am a GUEST. And yes - it is actually nice for me because being considerate of the sensibilities of my host country I find that in turn I have been made welcome. Those that are being "superior" are those who consider French culture ro be in need of changing. And it seems to me that those shouting loudest for change are those who come to the country with the least understanding of the people, the language and the culture in the first place."

That's a huge generalisation isn't it ? Although it would of course be a lot more beneficial to anyone, to be able to speak French here, it is in my view difficult for many to be able to do so to a degree that might be called conversational level. My French neighbours and friends are inquisitive but not indignant, that many Brits they have heard about (they know very few, so obviously cannot pass any more than a general statement) cannot speak French and indeed understand the problem that many people (namely the retired, sorry but I am not being rude but factual)simply will never, for one reason or another, ever be able to speak French to the level mentioned.

As I have said before after a long tome associated with France, I have NEVER ever once thought of myself as a guest, just because I am not a citizen does not make me a guest, it is not a choice of one or the other. Who invited me here, no one did, I came here to work, not as a guest but as an inhabitant ? Many countries of the World have multi cultural influences, yes even France, although for many tradionalists (better than saying racists I feel !), they prefer not to have it or admit it !.

I forget who once said it but, we are all citizens of the World and since time began, people have travelled and evolved in many countries, other than their place of birth, it is natural happening and calling them guests is very strange to me. How long until a guest becomes a "friend" and not an invitee ? One day, one year or never ? The foreigners who have accepted or gained posts here in local or higher Governement (yes the governement actually has people who were not actually born here) who have served (or, are continuing to serve) the country, are they guests ?

Laotze ".....Those that are being "superior" are those who consider French culture ro be in need of changing. And it seems to me that those shouting loudest for change are those who come to the country with the least understanding of the people, the language and the culture in the first place"

My youngest kids (21 & 22) are more French than English and would like to see some changes, many of their French friends, in one way or another, would like a more varied France. My kids and their friends and indeed friends of our age group, are also of the opinion, that the French are finally travelling all over the world in large numbers(and have been for a while now) and are coming back with new thoughts and ideas and many tell us they would love "this or that" in their own country.

Finally, as I have said, I have been living, working or coming to France for quite a long time, so naturally I feel I might know a bit about understanding both the people and their culture (will one ever know it all, 100% ??) and the language (that can always be improved)

and to accuse me of one of those "being superior" as along with dare I say, millions of others, because I would like to see some changes and therefore, I am unable to understand the culture or the people is way off mark, to say the least. I am afraid your circle must be pretty insular, if to a person, none want to see changes in France.

When you say ".....those who consider French culture ro be in need of changing." It is not supposed to be that general for goodness sake. Many want new things, new happenings, new ways of doing things etc etc, in some ways it is no more than keeping up with the World and it's future. You may well love it as it is but for instance and to give just one example, will you be responsible for the ensuing massive unemployment (now 12% up here in our region alone on last year), it is all very well to insist you like it just as it is but there are new generations coming who see the great difficulty France will have if it does not keep up and make changes.

But I think we are talking about different things here, one side is possibly talking about living in retirement in glorious countryside in their cottage, where things go along much as has happened for centuries and therefore wants to guard that way of life, well that's not a problem and another side is talking about France as a whole and that as they say, is an entirely different ball game altogether.

I will end by saying this and it is not meant to derogatory at anyone, unless one has a fair command of the French language, I truly believe it is impossible to comprehend the French and their ways. How are you going to know what they are saying and in what tone or in what context they are saying something. How are you going to read the local and national papers to get an idea of what is occurring at any one time, the list is endless and without that kind of command a lot will be simply hearsay and at best read wrongly. I am not saying one cannot live here (I know many who cope admirably but know almost nothing about the French and its ways etc and happily admit it to boot !) only that comprehension of culture and the people will be very muted indeed.

[Miki]

[quote]**And it seems to me that those shouting loudest for change are those who come to the country with the least understanding of the people, the language and the culture in the first place**That says it...[/quote]

**And it seems to me that those shouting loudest for change are those who come to the country with the least understanding of the people, the language and the culture in the first place**

"That says it all, Laotze!"

I truly find that absolute tosh and a pretty poor generalisation plus more importantly, a complete misunderstanding of most of the people who have moved here. I hope there are members on here who live and work here, speak French and understand their place of living (plus others that have enjoyed France and learned much about it)that would disagree with such a statement.