Laotze

[quote]OK so I'm being controversial - But I am not a troll!!! I know that there are a lot of hurdles to leap to be able to live let alone be able to attain a sucessful business in France BUT don't you thin...[/quote] I have been reading back this thread which started with the original poster wondering about opportunities in France and then went off track with people banging the tired old drum about France being such a backward country. France is a country which has been to the forefront of medicine, microbiology, aeronautics, engineering etc etc but many who come to live here come without knowledge of Frances rich cultural heritage. Many seek to change something they dotn understand in the first place. We all have different experiences of France. I was born into a French speaking household and grew up with the traditions that I see all around me everyday in France. I saw what Sunday opening and 24/7 did to the Uk and I I pray this never happens in France. I am not living in a fools paradise and even in the tiny village where I live there are problems with drugs, and the family unit is figting a rearguard action - but its still fighting whereas the fight is all but lost in the Uk. When I used to speak to people in the Uk of how my cousins were like my siblings it was as if I had grown another head. Its the norm here - yes even on the big cities people travel to spend weekends and holidays with their families. This accent on family life before and above anything else is something that the British just dont get. I am not being superior - MOh is British as are many of my friends. Its a different way of life. The French are fiercely proud of their traditions and their culture and do not want to be mini USA. Yes it will change but it will change in line with what the FRENCH want. And if you are not French by birth or acquisition of citizenship then you ARE a guest (some guests are not invited - some are not even welcome!) And if you delude yourself that you have any other status then ask the French to define it for you. And being a guest doesnt mean that you cannot speak out when something is wrong - it just means having a sensitivity about doing so. When we bought our house there were no British at all in the area. In the last couple of years the trickle has become a flood. They come out for a better quality of life - some well prepared and ready to adapt to a way of life in a foreign country ............but increasingly I see those who arrive knowing nothing about their host country and expecting and demanding that it changes to accommodate them. They stay in their cliques, laugh at French customs, drink too much and display bad manners at every turn - and after a couple of years they head off back to the UK because France is too backward and didnt change the way things are done to suit them. Before anyone flies at my throat - I am NOT targeting this at any person on this thread. I know nothing about any of you .........but if the cap fits and you dont find it comfortable dont bother ripping in to me. I know when I am beaten, and some of you would argue both sides against the middle so I might go and bang my head against a brick wall as an alternative to posting here again. There are lot of great people on this forum - and a lot of people who grate. I dont normally descend to personalities in an argument but I really do not understand why a couple of people on this thread find it necessary to use emotive language and snide insults instead of debating the points under discussion.

[quote]"WHY are you living here if you dont speak the language?" Because they can? It's all very well feeling superior and indignant, but it's their money, it's their life. There are worse problems in t...[/quote] Its not me asking why people are living in France without the means to communicate - its the French. I am not either superior or indignant, neither am I a CITIZEN of this country - therefore I am a GUEST. And yes - it is actually nice for me because being considerate of the sensibilities of my host country I find that in turn I have been made welcome. Those that are being "superior" are those who consider French culture ro be in need of changing. And it seems to me that those shouting loudest for change are those who come to the country with the least understanding of the people, the language  and the culture in the first place.

[quote]I agree with much of what you say Laotze, my own French language skills are poor and I know that it would be an uphill struggle to have any meaningful relaxed conversation with a person speaking Frenc...[/quote] Thats exactly it Gay - change from within. Hopefully learning from the mistakes made in the countries who have followed helter skelter where the USA leads - and then have found that what has been lost along the way cannot be replaced. Hopefully France will still be France, and Italy, Spain, etc etc all retain the essence of their cultures and not all become indistinguishable from each other in a blanket slick marketing operations. As far as your language skills are concerned you get brownie points for trying!

Why are you whispering saligoBay - is it a secret? OK I wont tell! What you say is right - just two small points. Where I lived in the Uk there were a large population of Italians who brought a lot of aspects of their culture with them - but they also integrated with the locals and there were no problems. There were also a large population of Indians - no problem over their food but they were perceived as not wanting to integrate with the locals and of denigrating the way of life in their adopted country and this was met with resentment. In the years I spent teaching foreigners English I saw some very sad cases for eg a very elderly lady who had lived several decades in the Uk and raised her children there and still could not speak more than 2 words of English as her life was spent amongst her "own kind" which was ok until her husband died, her kids had moved away and she could not even communicate with her next door neighbour to ask for help when she fell ill. And her next door neighbour felt that she had been slighted for all the years the husband was alive and suddenly she was required to be neighbourly. I know that where you live things are different but here it is very rural and over the years several British families have been made welcome in a very tiny village. In the last couple of years there are some (not all) who are coming over, not to be in France, but to get away from their country. The French can cope with the jelly and mint sauce yearnings - they (in our area) are miffed with the cliques who regard the locals as Disney characters and the way of life as "quaint" and in need of dynamic Brit (or American) influence to bring them into the 21st century but spend all their time socialising with each other, totally unable to communicate with the people in whose country they are living UNLESS the natives speak English!! And I am now seeing a different reaction than amusement when non French speaking Brits struggle to get some message across. "WHY are you living here if you dont speak the language?" Change will come to France but I feel it ill behoves us as foreigners and guests in a country to denigrate the country's culture or its people. Obviously others on this forum see it in a different light but I still feel that as an incomer if one is looking for a "land of opportunity" and a raft of entrepreneurs etc, one should look elsewhere in the world.

Firstly Viva and Miki  - the thread did go off at a tangent from the original posting. SaligoBay brought up the point about not being able to eat outside certain times, and I and someone else disputed that. Who said this "France is stuck in a time-warp where business and daily living is concerned. Nothing changes and new ideas don't seem to be encouraged however good they may be - everyone hangs onto how they have been brought up from the style of meals through to hairstyles. Perhaps my children's generation will bring France into the 21st century with new ideas and systems"???  My post addressed that point - If thats the way the French want things its fine by me! I am living in THEIR country! "Slightly bizarre isn’t it, shouting for me to Chill and then going off on one !" I dont think I was going off on one - merely responding to you - in a slightly politer tone than you used to me. "And what assumptions did I make about you then ? Mine was a general reply about the types I described. I found it a little bit strange that you accuse me of making assumptions about you !!"  Silly me - I assumed when you quoted my message and then went on about my stress FREE life that this was an assumption you were making about me??? "So each country must stay exactly how you (or others) want them to stay, regardless of what the actual inhabitants want to happen "  Actually my point was EXACTLY the opposite - I dont think people should come to live in a country and then expect or wish the country to change to suit them. "I find it all Extremely admirable, to see the multi cultural influences in many places, whether the British (or Americans) add anything to the French culture here, is for others to decide, I am not sure what it does but hope it doesn’t harm it".  I think all cultures have the capability to bring both good and bad consequences and any influx of a particular nationality is bound to have an impact. I just deplore a large number of people who come to live in France, moan about the way things are and how much better it is "back home" - and then after a few years go back home. "I don’t suppose anyone in Britain would now want the delicious Indian/Bangladeshi meals to be sent back whence they came, nor of course the Chinese influence on meals, as it was not "admirable" to allow change to happen to British food and for the demand of the immigrants who longed for such things……….. Surely we are all entitled to want some home comforts or to want something we desire, is it de rigeur to pretend to be French but have to secretly desire that you had a Starbucks in Saint Malo or a Marks in Rennes but, dare not admit it for fear of the Anglo/French admiration society denouncing your reasons for being here. ? "  Got no problem of immigrants bringing a taste of home with them, setting up outlets so they can get whatever it is that they desire - this happens in all countires with immigrant populations. This seems to me to be somewhat different to expecting the indigenous polulation to embrace whatever it is the incomers enjoy. They may or they may not. "“Oh and by the way Miki - I came to live in FRANCE not to escape Britain. I have no interest in other countries spoiled or unspoiled except as a holiday destination” And what the heck was that about ? Are you reading something where nothing exists, whilst having a wee dram "  No Miki - only responding to your your sneer " Best get the map out for the next unspoiled country for the next generation of Brits to find"  Oh and in answer to your assumption about having a wee dram - I dont! If you are unable to be minimally polite I would much prefer you to leave me out of the argument. I have put forward my point of view - I accept that yours is different which is fine by me.

Oh and by the way Miki - I came to live in FRANCE not to escape Britain. I have no interest in other countries spoiled or unspoiled except as a holiday destination.

[quote]".....It puzzles me why people want to leave the UK and live in France .......................and then want to turn France into another version of the UK!!!!! Perhaps the French like things just the w...[/quote] Hey Miki - CHILL! I DID NOT  say Stress free - I said less stressful. I only know our area well - and believe me, compared to what we fled "stress" is something that the folks around here need to look up in the dictionary. And no - my life is not stress free either! I dont know anyone who has a stress FREE life. Just a little point - you dont know enough about me to make any assumptions about how I live, what stresses I have had and do have. Can we just agree on the point that I LIKE France the way it is - and I dont ask you to feel the same? I KNOW it will change and has changed in the 14 years we have owned our house. I just dont see anything admirable about changing things that people from UK, USA, and several other countries  are coming to France to seek because they have lost these things in their own countries.

It puzzles me why people want to leave the UK and live in France .......................and then want to turn France into another version of the UK!!!!! Perhaps the French like things just the way they are???? I do too. I found it hard to get used to the pace of life at first but its far more human and less stressful. On Saturday we were shopping and only stopped for lunch at 2.30. Flunch was still doing a roaring trade and I certainly prefer THAT concept of fast food to McDs. Buffet salad for entree, grill for main course, lemon meringue for pudding, carafe of rose and coffee - even small bottles of liqueur available! And the concept of a coffee bar - I prefer to stop for my chocolat at a French cafe, sit outside and watch the passing parade on a fine day! Where I do agree about the lack of opportunity is that a lot of young people seem to settle for such limited horizons. Ok a lot of them are content to plod along but for those with ambition ........... well they go and work in the UK! France was years ahead with pin numbers on bank cards, Minitel was so way out long before the WWW was even thought of as a concept for every household, France is rolling out ADSL at a fantastic pace and is competitive in a lot of medical and technological fields. Every country has strengths and weaknesses - I have heard Americans bemoaning how things they are used to are not available in the UK and amazed that the Brits have more than 2 weeks vacation. We will soon all be operating like Americans so in the mean time just enjoy the difference!

Just a different way of behaving with other people - kissing friends, shaking hands with people in more formal situations or even people like the man delivering the parpaings, greeting everyone when one walks into a shop or waiting room and saying goodbye when leaving, using monsieur and madame. Its just become so automatic now that I am embarrassing people in the UK when I go back there!

I have two which I grew from seed. They seem to have tiny fruit which then disappears. I cant find any info on mulberry tree cultivation. We used to have a mulberry tree when I was a child so its  a real nostalgia trip for me!

I am on regular medication and my prescription is for 6 courses of the tablets. My husband takes Imigran for migraines and his prescriptions are also usable 6 times. Six seems to be the maximum that the doctor will prescribe without seeing you again but he can of course give you fewer repeats form just a single course of medication upwards. One takes the original prescription in to the pharmacist for each repeat and it is stamped on each occasion.

Aoutats are also called harvest mites. They like to find the damp parts of the skin where the clothing is tight to the body - bra and panty line, top of socks etc, also the nape of the neck if you have longish hair. The itch is very fierce and some people are allergic to their bites. They are not only around in August - avoid long grass and vegetation in the summer months or spray with an insect repellent and shower and wash all clothing after being in situations where you might have picked them up. If you do get bitten your pharmacist will give you medication to put on the bites and if they are very bad you should take antihistamine as well. The danger is not from the bites but that scratching them might cause secondary infections - and believe me if you are bitten by these awful beasts YOU WILL SCRATCH!!!!

Surely courtesy, consideration  and commonsense are more valuable in neighbours behaviour than obeying the letter of the law. We have an appartment on the coast that needs a great deal of work on it but we have halted work as all the surrounding neighbours are at the moment in residence and having their holidays and I am sure that even if we are working in the accepted hours it would spoil their pleasure. On the other hand when we were using our current residence as a maison secondaire and coming out to do work for a few short weeks of the year we frequently transgressed the accepted hours and the neighbours realised that we were only here for a short period and needed to make the most of that time.(we didnt take the p*ss though didnt work too late and tried to do the quiter stuff on a Sunday) Similarly the farmers at certain times work all sorts of hours and this is quite accepted (although it is FAR noisier than a strimmer or bricolage equipment!) I think it does also boil down to attitude as well - we have some new French neighbours in the village and after a couple of months they have managed to antagonise everyone as they stand on their rights when they wish to do something but dont see how their behaviour affects others. They parked a huge lorry in front of their property - as far as I could see it was quite legal but it was awful for the neighbours as all they could see from their wondows was this vehicle. The Maire has now made them move it! Their dog barks all the time (as do some other dogs in the village without comment)  and they have had complaints! When they first arrived in the village they spent several weeks doing work on the house starting at 7am and continuing till whenever they felt like it with their wondows open and music playing and no one said anything as they took the view that they needed to get themselves settled in. Now because of their attitude to everyone if they cough too loud people complain and they are finding that people no longer greet them in the village. Its really quite sad I think that they have started off on such a wrong footing.

Hmmmmmmmmmm! Troll -loll- loll- loll lol!

I agree Jo that one does need qualifications to teach - its not so much the grammar (you can pick that up out of a book) but teaching is a skill that has to be learnt like any other and there are certain "tricks" to teaching a language which make it a different skill again. One can do the odd conversation class successfully but to actually help someone build language skills requires planning and knowledge of how to make language building blocks. I suppose one could just implement a already written course by rote but teaching is about responding to pupils individual needs so I could see many pitfalls and poor learning outcomes!