Scam involving British claiming benefits?

[le bouffon]

You are missing the big picture it is the  EUROPEAN UNION that give members(not the new joiners)the right to go and work or not work and clain rmi/cmu or a bone for the dog or to claim for whatever is on offer.No one who is receiving cmu/rmi rightly is a scrounger, the people who where caught at it in  the doo- dornshire should be made an example of and exposed on french TV for what they are and then maybe the french will see the truth about birts over here.

[Opalienne]

Le Bouffon is not correct (I suppose given his name we should not be surprised....)   Although in principle EU citizens have the right to settle in any other member state, member states are also allowed to impose their own rules as to whom they accept   This may change in future, but currently this is the status quo.  For example, I paste below what applies for people wanting to live in Belgium:

As a citizen of the Union, you may enter a Member State with a valid identity card or passport and reside there for three months without any formalities.

As a citizen of the Union who does not enjoy a right of residence under any other provisions of Community law, you have a right of residence in any other Member State on condition that you have sufficient resources to avoid that you and the members of your family become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during your period of residence and you and the members of your family are covered by sickness insurance in respect of all risks in the host Member State.

Resources are deemed sufficient when they are higher than the level of resources below which the host Member State may grant social assistance to its nationals or if this criterion cannot apply when they are higher than the level of the minimum social security pension paid by the host Member Stat

[Deimos]

[quote user="Opalienne"]

Although in principle EU citizens have the right to settle in any other member state, member states are also allowed to impose their own rules as to whom they accept...

[/quote]

Many years ago when I worked in the Netherlands (at the time

both UK and Netherlands were part of the EU), I had loads of trouble  getting residence.  I was working for a Dutch company, in the Netherlands, paying

Dutch tax, social security, etc. 

However, my passport became the 2stamping ground2 for many and regular police

entries.  They would continually find

things (e.g. my contract said for an “unlimited duration”, and they considered

this inadequate and needed a contract without an end date !!).  they were just basically finding any excuse

to decline a permanent residence permit.

 

In practice the biggest problem was later when travelled and

entered most countries requiring a passport and they always asked, checked,

etc. why I had all these Dutch police stamps in my passport.  Should probably have got a new passport.

 

Ian

[Bobc]

"I'm shocked by the apparently niggardly attitudes expressed on this

thread, some from people whom I've come to respect, having ready their

reasoned points elsewhere.

First of all, are you tilting at windmills? Is this invasion of brit

scroungers real or are you simply responding to vague, ill-defined and

poorly researched reports in the French press. Lets have some hard

facts. What are the percentages? I suspect that this is a minority

interest (scandalous nevertheless) that has been hyped up.

France is a wonderful country with a proud history but its never been

known for giving anything away to its EU neighbours. It is certainly in

France's interest to encourage and benefit from the free movement of

labour between EU member states which this section of the convention

was designed to facilitate. It is difficult enough starting a new

business here; any LIMITED support that the state can offer is very

welcome. It is important, in supporting the European model of

co-operation and integration, that we keep and eye on the larger

picture rather than choosing to focus on trivia to the exclusion of all

else.

Bear in mind that your fellow EU citizens from the UK are only entitled

to E106 cover because they are workers and have paid regular NI

contributions up until their relocation in France.

My partner and I came here to work because we are workers. We have

always be fortunate enough to work and have never claimed a benefit in

any state. We did our homework and  planned ahead before we left

London. We're not rich (though richer than some of our neighbours) and

cannot afford not to work. We're trying very hard under challenging

circumstances to make our lives here financially viable. We're grateful

for the small respite that the French state allows us by not having to

worry about healthcare among the myriad of other concerns involved in

making a living for ourselves. In turn, when we are earning a taxed

income, we expect to be putting a lot back into the French economy and

society. We, as I would hope most non-French Europeans living in this

country, are committed to France and the life of its people.

Until recently I worked and taught in two high profile teaching

hospitals and know how freely accessible NHS services are to non-UK

nationals through either emergency admissions or via NHS Walk-in

Centres. In my considerable experience, rarely, very rarely, did I come

across cases of  "health-care tourism". Nothing I saw even began

to approach the abuses portrayed by the Red Tops (tabloids). People who

accessed services needed medical attention and in my book anyone who

needs a doctor should be allowed to see one in a country with plenty of

doctors.

I can't imagine there are many Brits here simply to have their teeth

fixed. I would like to credit most of my compatriots with a little more

integrity than is deemed appropriate by the French popular press.

Nobody here or anywhere else should be judged solely according the to

standards of The Third Estate. I don't like scroungers either but then

few of us are.

Best wishes."

From your earlier postings, you are new to France.

As with many others on this thread you are missing the point.

The main point of this thread was about people moving from the UK with

substantial assets in property, etc, in France and other financial

assets outside of France. The fact that they then have no income in

France makes them eligible for CMU, etc.

Possibly when you have been here for a few years trying to make a living you may have lost your rose-tinted view of France.

France is indeed a great country to live and work in but the business

costs are massive. The area of work that you are attempting to set up

in is one of the most popular for those working on the black and also

for those registering as it carries very low cotisations.

You may well eventually find in your area of France that your prices

are being undercut by ‘black workers’ who are obtaining all of the

benefits that you are defending.

Out of interest - it is probably a good idea to show your Siret number, office address, etc on your website.

From experience in our area, any clients who are prepared to pay for

grasscutting services would expect the supplier to provide the tractor

and any equipment required - may be different in your area.

Good luck with your business.

Kind regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[le bouffon]

Op/line,that was the case but now the need for anyone to prove thier income as gone here in france,hence no need for a CdS as many other posters have posted.The telegraph today says the some of the brits who made false RMI claims will have to pay the money back,and in some cases that could be up to three years worth!!!!

[Polycarpe]

Hi Bob,

 

Thanks for the constructive comments. Thanks for wishing us "good luck", we know we're going to need it. As regards are trying to set up a gardienage business, yes we're aware that by trying to do this legit we risk being undercut by those choosing to work 'au noir' for a third of what we are proposing to charge. It's going to be tough but we'll give it our best shot. If it fails because we can't compete so be it; the black economy in France is a fact of life and while we accept it, we don't endorse it. Being newbies in France our enthusiasm for the new life is bound to lend our specs a pinkish hue and we're doing all we can to tone down that tint.

Regarding the original thread, those caught claiming RMI while working are defrauding the state and the taxpayer. People plugged into the French healthcare system through 'E' form entitlement are not defrauding the state. Others have metioned in this thread that while its legal, its not moral. OK, that's a point of view but not one I share. They might also hold attitudes that I find morally questionable. Who knows? In a mixed society, the baseline against we we are judged is the law. If one believes a law to be unjust or immoral, then lobby to change it.

Best wishes

 

[Miki]

[quote user="Polycarpe"]

Regarding the original

thread, those caught claiming RMI while working are defrauding the

state and the taxpayer. People plugged into the French healthcare

system through 'E' form entitlement are not defrauding the state.

Others have metioned in this thread that while its legal, its not

moral. OK, that's a point of view but not one I share. They might also

hold attitudes that I find morally questionable. Who knows? In a mixed

society, the baseline against we we are judged is the law. If one

believes a law to be unjust or immoral, then lobby to change it.

Best wishes

[/quote]

You are not quite getting things right here, or at least not putting whatever you want to say , in the right way perhaps ?

E forms are legal European forms, one gets the correct one dependant on

ones circumstances. No one has ever said that anyone in receipt of such

a form is defrauding anyone ? So why did you think anyone would say

that ? People using an E106/E111 and then working au noir are defrauding the state however. Perhaps you are a little mixed up, as to what people are saying ?

We may not have to lobby, according to a few sources now, the Dordogne

is being carefully scrutinised for scroungers, which now apart from

RMI/CMU angle , now includes the Impots folks and you can bet your

life, that if enough are found guilty, the search will spread outwards.

I cannot be alone among the workers on here to be wondering just how

you get CMU whilst working with two businesses. There has been a scheme which assists people who have

been unemployed for a while and perhaps they have extended this to new

commerces but for two enterprises ? I say again, why not tell and help others who are in the same boat ?

For anyone still doubting some French are talking about this

subject, the TV stations and journals are carrying this story in

earnest and at dinner last night and without any word from us to start

the subject, my daughter's partner, said (translated) " was I concerned

about what the Television and newspapers were talking about with the

RMI fiddlers amongst the British and that perhaps in the future, might

it be awkward for some Brits in France, if this subject continued to be

in the headlines"

I replied that I felt this was something that the huge majority of

Brits were not involved in but of course it only takes one rotten apple

etc etc.  I told him, that in  the UK some immigrants had

been going through this problem for years and now, I guess it may well

be our turn to see how it feels. One musn't forget, this is a fairly

new system and so changing the rules to sort out any unforeseen problems, may not be so difficult as

people think.

[Russethouse]

One musn't forget, this is a fairly new system and so changing the rules to sort out any unforeseen problems, may not be so difficult as people think

When I spoke, last night,  to one of my friends who lives in France her immediate comment was that the situation is unlikely to last.

Surely this legislation was framed to help those in genuine need, I doubt that the French authorities see anyone with a pot of capital, especially one able to give enough interest to live on or substantially bolster your income, as being in need whether they be French or English.

[Clair]

I have looked this up here: http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2653.xhtml?&n=Etrangers%20en%20France&l=N8

and it says:

 

Installer sa famille en France: ressortissants

communautaires

Conditions à remplir 

Les ressortissants inactifs (retraités, rentiers,

étudiants, visiteurs) doivent disposer d'un minimum de ressources pour prendre

en charge les membres dépendants de leur famille.

which means

To settle a family in France: European nationals

Conditions to fulfil

Inactive nationals (pensioners, persons of private means, students, visitors)

must have a minimum of resources to support their family's dependents.

[Gastines]

Seems about the same as UK. You will always get the people who know all the fiddles and how to get the benefits. When V.A.T. registered in UK, if I gave a quote to a private person the first question would be how can they avoid paying the VAT? Sorry,I buy the supplies and have to get paperwork in order to reclaim what I pay out etc.There is always the :Little Man ; up the road who does jobs for cash, can't work Thursdays as he has to sign on. The VAT people said to me one day that I should only work for VAT registered company's and so avoid the proplem. I always used to think the easiest system was Purchase Tax, [ if anyone can remember that far back ] it avoided the mountains of paperwork created by everyone along the line  claiming VAT  back. The only person paying  VAT in the end is the private consumer. It does give many thousands of public sector workers something to do!!

When it comes to claiming what's available surely it's up to those dishing it out to see if the claimant fits the criteria? I suspect that the reason a few more don't claim is because they are unaware of how!

Regards. By St.Malo

[Viv]

So , I've been happily paying for my own private healthcare for the past 6 years and now it appears that I shouldn't have been? Is that correct?

Are you saying Ron, that  I have infact been breaking the law by saving the state money and I should have signed up for whatever and then get my healthcare for free because I have no income? Well, if that's right I shall go and fall into some apples!

I may have read the wrong book, but I too,was  under the impression that to settle in France I needed to have my own means and health cover and I have been making quite a dent in my means every year , which I am happy to do.

[Quillan]

[quote user="viva"]

So , I've been happily paying for my own private healthcare for the past 6 years and now it appears that I shouldn't have been? Is that correct?

Are you saying Ron, that  I have infact been breaking the law by saving the state money and I should have signed up for whatever and then get my healthcare for free because I have no income? Well, if that's right I shall go and fall into some apples!

I may have read the wrong book, but I too,was  under the impression that to settle in France I needed to have my own means and health cover and I have been making quite a dent in my means every year , which I am happy to do.

[/quote]

French law says that you can have private health insurance if you are not eligable to join the French system. If you are eligable then it is illegal for a Franch based company to sell you complete insurance. So yes Ron is wrong in his interpretation.

[Deimos]

(Although it’s a bit “off thread,) Out of interest, which is

cheaper, paying for French health care (through “the system”) or taking out

private health care.

Ian

[Teamedup]

Clair, exactly, but some of us knew that and it is reasonable of any state to make such a demand upon anyone wanting to live in their country.

 

Anyone who is unable to support themselves and their dependants are breaking french law and  I sadly regret the demise of the carte de sejour.

[Colette]

In answer to Deimos's questions, don't you have to pay something in the region of 8% of your annual income towards the French public health care system if you are a resident?  So it really depends upon your income.  If 8% (or whatever the exact figure is, I can't remember) of your income is more than the cost of annual private health care membership then yes you could be worse of.  Especially as you would also have to buy top up insurance in addition to the basic 8% to get full 100% coverage. 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

Clair, exactly, but some of us knew that and

it is reasonable of any state to make such a demand upon anyone wanting

to live in their country.

 Anyone who is unable to support themselves and their

dependants are breaking french law and  I sadly regret the demise

of the carte de sejour.

[/quote]

I think that you place rather too much faith in this (mostly)

unlamented document. Qualification of someone for a CdS would not

prevent them at some point in the future either requiring through need,

or obtaining through falsehood, benefits. Who is to say that these 150

people are not all badged to the hilt? The rules are pretty clear:

those have made the appropriate contributions in France

(regardless of their origin) are entitled to benefit should the need

arise. Those who have not are not.

[Dog]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2006355,00.html

Edited by admin to make link clickable

[Tourangelle]

interesting article, it sounds as if the loop is being tightened

[le bouffon]

Rightly I do apologise to TU but when did she ever work in France?as to be so viscously in the way anyone gets any benefit to which they are entitled to get here in France?The point being if TU or anyone else knew of "black worker" why did they not tell the french authorthies instead of posting I know some brit who blah blah blah on the black.Working on the black and claiming is wrong.Just like not declaring income from second homes,or the people who do change overs for brits cash in hand.!!!!!

[Patf]

Just a point about Moonraker's post on page 2 about dentists. I heard from someone who has CMU that only basic dental care is covered, eg fillings extractions cleaning, not things like crowns, plates bridges etc - can't remember the word ? prosthetiques? These are subject to same charges as with normal CPAM + reimbursements. Pat.

[moonraker]

That was "second-hand" news but I've just found this

Les bénéficiaires de la CMU n’auront donc plus rien à payer pour les consultations et les actes médicaux, les médicaments, les actes des professions paramédicales (infirmières, kinésithérapeutes …) les frais d’hospitalisation et, en règle générale, pour les prothèses dentaires et les lunettes (verres et montures).
Les bénéficiaires de la CMU n'auront plus à faire l'avance des frais. Ils bénéficieront du tiers payant.

I paid 750€ for a small bridge 12 years ago and certainly wouldn't be able to replace it now if it broke!

Mary

[Clair]

[quote user="moonraker"]That was "second-hand" news but I've just found this

Les bénéficiaires de la CMU n’auront donc plus rien à payer pour les consultations et les actes médicaux, les médicaments, les actes des professions paramédicales (infirmières, kinésithérapeutes …) les frais d’hospitalisation et, en règle générale, pour les prothèses dentaires et les lunettes (verres et montures).

Les bénéficiaires de la CMU n'auront plus à faire l'avance des frais. Ils bénéficieront du tiers payant.

I paid 750€ for a small bridge 12 years ago and certainly wouldn't be able to replace it now if it broke![/quote]

With the CMU de base, you can still be asked to pay in advance.

You get reimbursed later and you still have to pay the balance of costs

not covered by the Sécurité Sociale.

More details (in French) here:

http://www.ameli.fr/211/DOC/705/fiche.html?page=5

With the CMU complémentaire (equivalent to a mutuelle) you do not usually have to advance any money.

More info (in French) here:

http://www.ameli.fr/211/DOC/706/fiche.html?page=6

For instance, with CMU complémentaire,

you can have 1 free pair of specs every year (the optician will ask for

authorisation before doing any work), choice of frames is almost

inexistant and up to a maximum cost of €22.87, lenses will be clear glass, thick, no coating...

Same for dentist care: basic cleaning, basic care... The dentist has to obtain authorisation before any work is done.

[Clair]

I've just had an interesting conversation with my French neighbour.

He's just had a cataract operation in 1 eye and is having a second operation next month (other eye!)

Well that's what he'd told me... but today, in the course of the conversation, as I asked him how he was getting on, he said it was strange not having to wear glasses he'd been used to since age 5... He then suggested I too could have my eyes done as I am shortsighted as he was... as long as I found a specialist prepared to declare a cataract operation instead of a laser eye correction, which is not reimbursed by the Sécurité Sociale!