Scam involving British claiming benefits?

[Miki]

Thank you Cerise, this is the point  that Miki and others appear to be missing, you do not claim CMU.  You pay what you are told to pay.  If your financial situation, honestly declared to the French authorities is such that it is does not reach the pay threshold for CMU ... etc

Whoah Ron,

I have in no way missed the point at all, thank you.

As some will have read over the years on here, one of my first jobs in

France was assisting the Brits in settling down and answering the

thousands of questions that most always seemed to have. It was my job

to know people in the right departments and to try and get the "correct"

answer. I emphasise correct because, as many on here would have found

out to their great annoyance , one can go in to any fonctionnaires

office and you can be given advice that you think to be kosher, then

find out later, at often, great expense that you have been given

hopeless advice !  On LF, one can see it time and time again,

think I'm making it up ? If it was not for experienced folks inc.

Artisans and others on here, the "send three and sixpence, we're going

to a dance..............." brigade would be rife and the number of

Brits waking around in France under a completely false impression of

what they should be might well be out of control !!!

One does claim CMU, if one didn't go to register, they would not seek

you out, you are told to claim it as your right to health cover.

Now, the main point is this, I am not talking of the group that claim

CMU as their due right, I am annoyed though that people can claim this whilst

living the life of Reilly but................Now if you read my posts,

you will see most of my grief is with those that claim either CMU/RMI

or again, as would be the case for someone on RMI, both and then

proceed to work, thereby taking the Michael out of the already

stretched health sytem here. It is still my belief that CPAM will look

in to the way it issues CMU, surely people cannot expect cheap or even

free treatement, when they are sitting on a  fortune ? Yews, I am

perfectly aware that the ones who don't work are able to claim CMU but

my point in their cases are, is it moral ?

Why oh why has it been stated again, we offer Europe FREE treatement so

should others, absolute cobblers, if you know ther rules of a country,

then you must decide whether going there suits your purpose and if it

doesn't well move elsewhere, simple eh !

Remember, those that cry for more rights in France, as the UK gives

free on entry health care, is that  when we lived in the UK,

social security claims were somewhat based on what one had in savings,

is that still the case ? And if so, well how is the system here OK for

Brits  ? Well because it is bluddy cheap for those who have money

stashed and a big house to boot ! ! and you can hear and see ex pats

cahooting as to just how cheap it is on the 

CMU.......................moral...not in a million years but as it

stands, one has no choice but to watch it happen and all the time, the

health service here is going deeper in to the bottomless black hole.

Clair,

Thanks for pointing it all out, some people will simply not believe

anything until it is plonked right in their face, I found this part

interesting :

That situation exists in all the

departments".  AP

According to yesterday's Dépêche, 7000 claimants were investigated, 212 were found

to claim fraudulently and 150 of these are European nationals (other than

French) and the majority of these are British

.

Well reading that, it appears that if it is known

to be happening in all the departments then that adds up to quite a few in my book.

Perhaps a few being caught will start to frighten those fraudulently

claiming......

Anyone still believing it is not happening ?

[Ron Avery]

Sorry Miki, but you keep saying that you have to claim CMU, how can that be?.  As you have to join the French Health care system  and you have honestly and  I emphasise honestly, declared your income, (I am no way supporting those who deliberatly falsify their income here) and it does not reach the payment threshold then you get your healthcare free, no claim is required or am I missing something here?  How Viva can this be immoral, it is not a choice thing,[:@]

If people do not have enough income to trigger payments then they do not and CANNOT pay. END OF STORY  There is no way round it, so just accept it and stop taking the moral high ground just because you,  like me has to pay.   If people have assets good luck to them, its the appreciation of those assets by using savings that is making many parts of rural France a better place to see and visit..

 If the French don't like it,  let them change it, but they wont because as well as pulling in a lot of immigrants with property, it would also pull in a lot of French who are asset rich and income poor.

[Miki]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

How many more times do you have to be told Viva that it is not immoral, it is not a choice thing,[:@]

If people do not have enough income to trigger payments then

they do not and CANNOT pay. END OF STORY  There is no way round

it, so just accept it and stop taking the moral high ground just

because you,  like me has to pay.   If people have

assets good luck to them, its the appreciation of those assets by using

savings that is making many parts of rural France a better place to see

and visit..

 If the French don't like it,  let them change it, but

they wont because as well as pulling in a lot of immigrants with

property, it would also pull in a lot of French who are asset rich

and income poor.

[/quote]

Ron, you are a million miles off target. You have obviously not noted

the reasons why CMU came in to being. It was brought in as many folks

were slipping under the net and they had no health cover. It was never

intended for anyone with a big house and pots of money, now that's the

real,    end of story..............

What you are now trying to post, is that some stories have materialisd

that some folks, like Farmers sitting on a huge place and have no one

to carry it on, will sell an then claim CMU. Total twaddle, anyone who

has been on the system will know that many folks will enjoy a fair

while staying on the health cover under their own mutuelle. It will

take some time until that person will have to start paying for further

health care and yes, CMU may well be their choice but again, it was not

what CMU was intended for and as it still a fairly !"young" system, it

was always going to end up with some further regulating and once the way it is

being too abused gets looked at, I ma sure it will cahnge and as viva

says, how many who have enjoyed cheap or free treatment here will

decide to leave and their love of France dwindle eh !!

You think that the health system won't change the rules, as they like to give

out free health treatment, where are you coming from !!

[Miki]

Sorry Miki, but you keep saying that you have to claim CMU, how can that be?.

Once again, if you don't want health care and don't register (as in

many Brits here who don't wan't anyone to know they are here, oh yes,

head out of the sand time, plenty like that here). If you do want

health care and feel that being semi retired with a nice few quid and

or a nice pension, then you have to register and CLAIM CMU, that's how

it can be................................don't register or claim,

pretty simple really.

[Deimos]

[quote user="Miki"]

Once again, if you don't want health care and don't register...

[/quote]

Total side track but I was under the impression that if you

were resident in France yiu had to register for health cover.  Is this wrong as it does impact my position

?

Ian

[Miki]

[quote user="Deimos"][quote user="Miki"]

Once again, if you don't want health care and don't register...

[/quote]

Total side track but I was under the impression that if you

were resident in France yiu had to register for health cover.  Is this wrong as it does impact my position

?

Ian

[/quote]

Resident, yes but I said those that did not want to do be legally

resident, read it again below, where I say there are folks who do not want to do

so !!

(as in many Brits here who don't

wan't anyone to know they are here, oh yes, head out of the sand time, plenty

like that here)

[Deimos]

Now I’m really confused. 

Living in France with little income but significant savings I want to be

legal.  What do I do ?  Do I register,  and automatically get CMU and incur the “wrath of many here”.  Other choice seems to be to not register, be

here illegally and again incur the “wrath of many here”.  Seems whatever I do the same group of people

will end up criticizing me – despite the fact that I have adequate resources to

support myself in France.

 

Would those doing the criticism please tell me what I should

do now ?

 

Ian

[Viv]

It was my understanding that even if you are legally resident in France and ONLY require health cover , that you DON'T have to join the French system as long as you have sufficient cover elsewhere.

Living and Working in France David Hampshire page 313.

"...if you require just health insurance, its much cheaper to take out private health insurance than pay high French social security payments"   he does go onto say that if you aren't covered by the French system and don't have private health care you may be entitled to free universal medical cover...

So it seems to me that you can quite legimately refuse to bludge off a system to which you have contributed nothing by simply taking out your own private insurance, but of course that costs money.

So, Ron, don't tell me you don't have a choice but to claim!

[BJSLIV]

Every time this issue comes up we go round the same old circle.

I think we are all agreed that those who hide income whether it be offshore or undeclared work in France are in the wrong.

However there is a loophole that some are exploiting / benefiting from.

This has arisen because the abolition of the Carte de Sejour has allowed people to set up home who would previously been denied residence due to their lack of income. At the time that the CMU was introduced if you didn't have enough income to contribute to the CMU then you couldn't stay in France.

Things have now changed and you don't need a card if you are an EU citizen.

As far as the RMI is concerned the rules make it clear that if you arrive incomeless, then you don't qualify. Unfortunately for health-cover though  you must register, if someone is living largely on capital then there is no provision for levying a CMU contribution, unlike the UK where asset rich benefit claimants are deemed to have a income until assets are reduced to a low level. 

So if the Governement considers it to be a problem then something will be done.It would be relatively simple to change the rules to bring in an imputed income test, but until this happens the loophole will remain, and people will, depending on your point of view,  benefit from  / exploit the situation.

PS The quote from the Hampshire book is out of date as things changed when the CMU was introduced.

With few minor exceptions if you are an EU citizen resident in France then you must join.

If Owen is around he may be able to refresh our memories as to those who do not have to sign up.

 

[Miki]

[quote user="Deimos"]

Now I’m really confused. 

Living in France with little income but significant savings I want to be

legal.  What do I do ?  Do I register,  and automatically get CMU and incur the “wrath of many here”.  Other choice seems to be to not register, be

here illegally and again incur the “wrath of many here”.  Seems whatever I do the same group of people

will end up criticizing me – despite the fact that I have adequate resources to

support myself in France.

 Would those doing the criticism please tell me what I should

do now ?

 Ian[/quote]

How the heck are you confused ? it is all set out

in black and white ! What is there to be confused about, if you say

nothing, no one will know...isn't that simple !! As for asking that absolutely ridiculous question ? Ask yourself what you will do and then keep your answer to yourself.

Don't worry, I and I guess others, are pretty sure it

will change and you can sleep at night, knowing you are paying a fair and

just amount in to the system !

[Deimos]

[quote

user="Miki"]How the heck are you confused ? it is all set out in

black and white ! What is there to be confused about, if you say nothing, no

one will know...isn't that simple !! As for asking that absolutely ridiculous

question ? Ask yourself what you will do and then keep your answer to yourself.

[/quote]

I’m

confused because certain forum contributors are critical of people “on the

black”, whilst many of the same people are now critical of people who register

and get CMU – yet it seems that if you are “capital rich” and “income poor” you

have to do one or the other.

When

you say nobody will know, does that include the French Government now that

there is disclosure of information between UK gov./banks and French authorities

?

Sorry

if I did not explain it clearly (but I did remain courteous).

[quote

user="BJSLIV"]PS The quote from the Hampshire book is out of date as

things changed when the CMU was introduced.[/quote]

I

purchased this (and others) before moving to France (latest editions) but have

found quite a lot stated in the book is not the case in practice and being sent

off in the wrong “direction” has complicated things.  I thus do not

“trust” them any more.

Ian

[Ron Avery]

Viva

"On 1 January 2000 legislation came into force whereby it became obligatory for all legal residents of France, irrespective of nationality, to affiliate to the French health system".

It is true that if you are living and working in France and flitting between countries that you only have an option of private health insurance if you are not resident here but that is not what is being discussed here  and you know it.

 Do a search on any website about living in France,ask David Owens, and you will be told that private health insurance (not complememntary cover) for the majority of people is illegal in France. 

 A  French Entree quote

"BUT WHAT IF I WANT PRIVATE INSURANCE? Although its illegal to be comprehensively insured by a private insurer when you’re eligible for inclusion in the state system,.its advisable to have complementary health cover from a mutuelle........"

So as Ian has quite rightly stated you HAVE to join the French Health care system.  You do NOT  have a choice.  Or are you saying that everyoene slse is wrong? Are you affiliated to the French Health care system, if so, why are you if you don't have to be?.

[Miki]

So, I say again, why is it "confusing" ?

People are critical of people being on the black, so that's easy to comprehend.

And if you are capital rich and income poor you have to do one or the other, now what does that mean ?

When I said nobody will know, it meant you will be legal (so the

government will know you !) and you, will say nothing to anyone else

about how you have health cover, is that understood ? And I mean that in the most courteous way.

As far as all those books about living in France, most are seriously

out of date as well as being written by people who don't actually live

in France nor have been through the system but know "someone" who has

and read the French sites to gain info. Now I do have to say that is my personal

thoughts on them, I might be wrong of course but it would answer me

at least, as to how some parts in the books are totally wrong.

[Deimos]

[quote user="Miki"]

And if you are capital rich and income poor you have to do one or the other,

now what does that mean ?

[/quote]

 

Means you have a lot of capital (hence the “rich” bit) yet

as interest rates are currently low (particularly in the euro zone) that

capital does not generate much income i.e. interest (i.e “income poor” – you

have a low income).

People (like myself) in that situation live of a gradually

declining capital (savings).  However,

when people look at your income you are “poor” though live a perfectly

comfortable life.

There is no deception in doing this.  No “hiding funds”, nothing “overseas” and

the like.  I would actually guess that

quite a few people might be living like this through the effects of the UK

house prices relative to the French house prices (particularly of several years

ago).

 

[quote user="Miki"]So, I say again, why is it

"confusing" ?

[/quote]

My confusion comes in that I “want to do the right thing” –

not just from a legal perspective but morally. 

I have made sure I have adequate funds and do not wish to be in the “CMU

scrounger” bracket (even if I don’t tell anybody about it).  Some people are saying I must register but I

must not be a “CMU scrounger”, but if I register I will almost certainly be on

CMU (and thus a the group some are criticizing).

 

Sorry, have I explained my “absolutely ridiculous question”.

(By the way, commenting on questions like this is a great way to discourage

others from posting questions.  There

are nicer ways to express such emotions even if you do take exception to a question.  Most people would ignore a question they

feel so strongly about).

Ian

[BJSLIV]

I “want to do the right thing”

So you will have to register and may well benefit from the loophole, unless and/or until it is closed.

There is nothing you can do to avoid it, so as Miki said just keep quiet, and think that for once in your life you are beating the system.

[timc17]

Surely the point is that fraud is fraud in whatever part of Europe it appears. The original post was about an article detailing the fraudulent claiming of health benefit by a number of  'non-french' residents in the Dordogne the vast majority of whom were british. This should be deplored no matter what your views are on the EU and recipricol healthcare.

This is another lively topic but please don't spoil it by getting personal.

 

 

tim 

[Teamedup]

Re  savings rich , income poor French CMU'ers.

 

The notion of the CMU is so new in french society that for all there will be french people who will have well and truly taken 'advantage' of  being savings rich, income poor, I cannot see their current good luck being relevant if now they are to be deprived of something so recent. They will have got nowt before and wouldn't again (if the system changed for something fairer) unless they pay.

We aren't talking about changing old french traditions here. And there are enough people who need help in France rather than the faux pauvre.

 

 

[Miki]

My confusion comes in that I “want to do the right thing” –

not just from a legal perspective but morally.  I have made sure I have adequate funds and do not wish to be in the “CMU

scrounger” bracket (even if I don’t tell anybody about it).  Some people are saying I must register but I

must not be a “CMU scrounger”, but if I register I will almost certainly be on

CMU (and thus a the group some are criticizing).

Then if you go the moral route, you won't

have health insurance will you but my bet is that you will take the CMU

route, which as a resident in France, you are legally obliged to. I read you live here, then "when I

live here" what is it ? If you are here, then why have you not already

registered for health cover ? Surely, one must do what a person has to

do and taking the moral route as I said, that means NO cover but taking

the obligatory route means, you should have done so already !

 Sorry, have I explained my “absolutely ridiculous question”.

(By the way, commenting on questions like this is a great way to discourage

others from posting questions.  There

are nicer ways to express such emotions even if you do take exception to a question......

Have no fear, if I think someone is acting

deliberately stupid, I usually don't answer them, you have had the

benefit of the doubt on this occasion. As far as discouraging others

from asking questions, well that is their perogative but I don't think

answering you in the way I have, has been discourteous. I have had

reason to see you act in a very childish way before. Do grow up,

please. You asked a question, I had the decency to answer it, if my

answer did not suit you, then surely it doesn't need a reply in such a

pathetic manner as to say "Most people would ignore a question they

feel so strongly about" now what does that actually mean !!!! Ignore a question because you feel strongly about it ?????????

Is it any wonder that I feel that answering any

question you might have, has the highly likely scenario of turning in

to a what, how, when, where and how episode, just to find out what the

heck you are on about ! And I mean that most sincerely

f.......................

[Opalienne]

Actually the original post was about claims for RMI, not for health benefits - but these are automatic if you are in receipt of RMI.   You also don't have to pay tax d'habitation and get some kind of reduction on your phone bill, I think.  I agree that it doesn't help to get personal.

In response to those who have said that it's all the same as the British getting hot under the collar about asylum seekers, I don't agree with you at all.   Many asylum seekers are very highly qualified people and are hoping to find work in the UK. Another difference is that they are usually poor and unable to buy their own homes, having in many cases spent all their money in trying to get to a safer place.   This, in my view, is totally different from people who cash in on the inflated British housing market to buy the most expensive property they can afford in France, large cars, swimming pools, etc and then find they don't have enough to live on. 

The answer would be for the French system to take all assets into account when deciding whether or not to award the RMI, while leaving enough flexibility to cater for people have become sick or whose circumstances have changed in other ways.   Let's hope they do this - not because I am being holier than thou about exploiting the current system (though I certainly don't approve of people who do so), but because of the effect that this kind of activity has on the reputation of the British in a country which is by and large very tolerant and kindly disposed towards them.

 

[le bouffon]

From what I see is if someone is above board and claiming what ever they are entitled to claim then no one as the right to call them scoungers.Some posters are moaning about free health care,well what have they themselves put in to the system I would like to know?nothing more than they have to for sure,just a touch of the green eyed monster,me thinks.

[Colette]

Ignoring the rights or wrongs for a minute, what surprises me is how they manage to do it in the first place.  Reading only last week that tens of thousands of people in the UK do not claim tax credits and other benefits because as even the govt acknowledges the paperwork is so complex, how on earth do people manage to fill in all the necessary forms in French?  Most people we know in France struggle with basic everyday matters and even if they were entitled to any benefits I doubt very much they would have a clue or the language skills to do anything about it. 

Colette

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Opalienne"]

This, in my view, is totally different from

people who cash in on the inflated British housing market to buy

the most expensive property they can afford in France, large cars,

swimming pools, etc and then find they don't have enough

to live on. 

The answer would be for the French system to take all assets into

account when deciding whether or not to award the RMI, while leaving

enough flexibility to cater for people have become sick or

whose circumstances have changed in other ways.   Let's hope

they do this - not because I am being holier than thou about

exploiting the current system (though I certainly don't approve of

people who do so), but because of the effect that this kind of activity

has on the reputation of the British in a country which is by and large

very tolerant and kindly disposed towards them.

[/quote]

Though I would agree that it might seem fairer to take account of all

assets when making assessments for RMI or other assisstance, I'm not

sure that the French authorities would have the will to do so. Simply,

if they applied this assessment to EU "foreigners" they would be

obliged to do so to French nationals. Two reasons why this would be

unlikely:

1) Any government doing so would be commiting political suicide - with

the way inheritance works here, children of "asset rich / cash poor"

parents are acutely aware of the status of their potential future

wealth and have votes. Also, I have a feeling that the laws as they

stand would preclude a forced sale, particularly if a widowed party

were involved;

2) People forced to sell their homes to provide income would need to be

rehoused. It is very likely that much of the responsibility for this

would fall to the state. Social housing is on the short side anyway -

adding a few hundred thousand souls to the stew might not be

economically smart.

[Ty Korrigan]

Hey diddle diddle

We're all on the fiddle

We lie in our beds till noon

Then work on the black

To buy drink and fags

And claim the R.M.I  too!

[Quillan]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Viva

"On 1 January 2000 legislation came into force whereby it became obligatory for all legal residents of France, irrespective of nationality, to affiliate to the French health system".

It is true that if you are living and working in France and flitting between countries that you only have an option of private health insurance if you are not resident here but that is not what is being discussed here  and you know it.

 Do a search on any website about living in France,ask David Owens, and you will be told that private health insurance (not complememntary cover) for the majority of people is illegal in France.

SNIP

[/quote]

Actually it’s Peter Owen I believe. You are interpreting that particular law not quite correctly according to the documents I was sent by Peter. You may have full private insurance ONLY if you are not eligible to join the French health system and there still are many reasons for not being allowed to join. In the health section just recently there was a post by a person who is no longer a member and I know of one or two who have been refused because they could not provide an E106 or letter saying why they were refused. I actually posted a year back on a person who was receiving treatment for cancer in France (via a E111 would you believe although they live here 11 months of the year) and had their passports impounded and the threat of having their house sold to pay the hospital fees. They had to raise the money in the UK to pay around £90,000 worth of bills.

Back to the main subject, I think the way forward for the French is to say that only French citizens/nationals or residents of more than three tax fiscal years will be eligible for free medical care. In the meantime bring back the CDS for all those people from member states prior to November 2004 and those arriving for the first time. If they don't meet these requirements then they do not get anything from the state except life or death emergency treatment. Lets not forget that this is exactly what they are doing to people from the EU states that joined after November 2004, they have to prove they can support themselves.

[Opalienne]

I agree with Jond's remarks about French inheritance and can see how forcing the sale of property might cause problems.  But this doesn't mean that its value shouldn't be taken into account when determining whether or not someone can receive RMI.   Selling 'en viager' disinherits children but is completely legal - and plenty of people do it when they need the extra income.   Maybe that is the answer?   Although forced sale should be a last resort, it seems to be that it's fairer to everyone than allowing the current situation to continue.