Russethouse Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 KathyC, Which constituency are you in line for ? Sedgefield ? [;)]I don't think you really answered my question. There was surely no way we could have gone on as the 'Sick man of Europe' the country had to do something and logic tells me that some of the 60% (of employees, not population?) voted Tory too, otherwise how did they win the election.?As a country we simply had to encourage enterprise. The Labour government of the time just wasn't doing that.How many people on this site benefited under Thatcher? When she was elected we were just married, we worked our cotton socks off and furnished and improved our first home, then moved and did it again with the second (and we didn't have to queue up for a mortgage allocation as we had done under Callaghan)there was a feeling that any one who worked hard to get on and better themselves. Yes, there was a high price and personally I bitterly regret Norman Tebbitts idea that if there was no work locally you should 'get on your bike' because it ignored the role the extended family played in the community....but realistically would any party have been any different in that respect? (In any case members of my own extended family had already found work away from the immediate area, it didn't seem much different to me at the time)Labour has been in power a while now, but actually which Thatcher policy has it rescinded ? In actual fact they had to invent 'New Labour' to get rid of the Conservatives. PS. Crikey, Miki, I remember Carolina Doors, nice bit of mahogany......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Hoddy"]Moderator's Hat On.I just want to remind everyone that terms like "evil cow" and "old bag" breach the forum's code of conduct on sexist remarks.Hoddy[/quote]Surely not where the Iron Lady is concerned, she has been called it forso long she would suspect something dodgy going on if it did notregularly appear on the net.Sorry but the T&C's on this forum are broken more often than ourAunty Margie's New Year resolutions. Selectively quoting the T&C'scan be a right bluddy nerve ache[8-)] Yes Gay but the mahogany wood (warning....pun arrived) have beenbetter off left uncut as a tree. Ruined our council estate, we even hadsnobs for the first time. We wondered who the hell these people were,that went to bed a neighbour and woke up the next day with a nose twofoot in the air and a style of speech we could not understand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opalienne Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 The thing that has always stuck in my mind, above all others, about Thatcher is that she once said "there is no such thing as society." Maybe that's why some of us like living in France, where people do seem to care about others and 'solidarity' is something to be proud of rather than just an embarrassingly socialist concept. We live near Calais and there are a small number of brave and selfless French people who look after the hundreds of refugees who are still milling around with nowhere to go after the closure of Sangatte. They get no thanks for it - and indeed are regularly picked up by the police and prosecuted for any excuse - but they go out twice a day, every day, to try to help these poor people have a bit of dignity (not to mention something to eat). Some of them even take complete strangers home with them so that they can have a wash and a bed for the night. I can't see that kind of thing happening in either Thatcher's or Blair's Britain. I hope someone can prove me wrong, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 "Surely not where the Iron Lady is concerned, she has been called it for so long she would suspect something dodgy going on if it did not regularly appear on the net." MIKII had an instinctive reaction to Hoddys post which went something like 'oh, but she was a ....'. Then I thought again . I think hoddy was right to say what she said. We would never describe a male politician in those kind of terms. However much I loathed Margaret Thatcher, it demeans all of us (particularly women) to use these lazy and, yes, offensive terms to describe her. I'm sure we can find better ones LOL"Sorry but the T&C's on this forum are broken more often than our Aunty Margie's New Year resolutions. Selectively quoting the T&C's can be a right bluddy nerve ache"Sore point, sore point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Of course plenty of trade unionists voted Tory, but the point I was making is that the unions of that time did not represent the minority but the majority. (Yes, the majority of employees but there were a lot more of them around before Thatcher.!) Working hard and bettering yourself is a philosophy that could be put into force under any shade of government; it was the way I was brought up in the 60s, by working class parents. It was also a philosophy that worked better when people had job security and could not be thrown onto the scrap heap whenever it proved convenient.In terms of the current government, one of the most depressing legacies of the Thatcher era has been the effect on the Labour party and the way it has moved to the right (sorry, centre!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Perhaps the most valid point we can make about Mrs T is that at the time someone of her political character was just the medicine required to shake up the status quo. I cannot believe anyone on this forum would believe the UK of the late seventies was a desirable social model that should have remained untouched.I believe it is valid to debate the past because our future ideas usually lie in the past. Something new under the sun is a very rare bird indeed.Politicians have a very short shelf life in modern societies. She was no remarkable exception, just different in her time and had the balls, (i.e. political support) to push through the remedies required. Of course pain was inflicted on a section of society who were used to a comfort zone. You cannot persuade many by the breath of an argument. A kick up the proverbial usually works wonders. Most have to be dragged kicking and screaming into reform. Humans hate change unless you can provide sufficient incentive or particular attractive options. A broad canvas usually falls flat on its face.The minority always have to suffer for a greater good. What else is war or conflict suppose to achieve? Ideas help. Its ideas and opinions which change things. Not facts. Use ideas with a persuasive argument to help influence the tide of reform. You cannot impose solutions on a people. Racists appear from the woodwork whenever they smell opportunity and sadly in present day France that opportunity is laid bare. It needs to be defeated with economic prosperity. Not retreat to the old established order.France is now in a slow state of change. Perhaps at the very beginning of a process some of us have waited patiently for. I personally have run out of time. That’s my bad luck but I sincerely wish the country well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Tresco"]"Surely not where theIron Lady is concerned, she has been called it for so long she wouldsuspect something dodgy going on if it did not regularly appear on thenet." MIKII had an instinctive reaction to Hoddys post which went something like 'oh, but she was a ....'. Then I thought again . I think hoddy was right to say what she said.We would never describe a male politician in those kind of terms.However much I loathed Margaret Thatcher, it demeans all of us(particularly women) to use these lazy and, yes, offensive terms todescribe her. I'm sure we can find better ones LOL"Sorry but the T&C's on this forum arebroken more often than our Aunty Margie's New Year resolutions.Selectively quoting the T&C's can be a right bluddy nerve ache"Sore point, sore point.[/quote]Oh all right. I hereby withdraw my comment that Mrs T was a "ghastlyold bag" and would like to substitute "demented hemeroid" instead. Ishall edit my offending post accordingly. While I appreciate that thiscomparison may well be offensive to hemeroids I'm fairly sure that theycan't read and downright certain that they cannot type."We would never describe a male politician in those kind of terms" - Oh yeah? You haven't heard my descrpition of John Selwyn Gummer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 For that jond, you get this in return; a first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Tesco said "..... I'm sure we can find better ones LOL"You betcha and lots of 'em but for now, I shall abstain from offering them.....................[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le bouffon Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Thanks for that miki I was only fishing as I was not sure what line of business you were in.Re moth balling pits,it is not the case that coal as to to be mined to keep the mine viable,maybe that is just your london way,maybe you could send the thiefs muggers and any one else on parole or anyone with a hard done by with a sob story down the pit to check them out,instead of letting them go and commit murder.Maggie had the short sharp shock,and boy was she right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Logan wrote, " I cannot believe anyone on this forum would believe the UK of the late seventies was a desirable social model that should have remained untouched."That may be true, but it doesn't necessarily follow that what Thatcher did was a good answer to the problem.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le bouffon Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 The other side of the coin means that it was not "mauvais" There was a survey in the USA that stated of all the lecturers 74% were for anyone but the Bush team,and even to prove the point some college kid took the teacher to court saying that the lessons where not impartial,74%maybe the NUT should take note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Kathy, I guess most people here have working class parents, and are working in class in so far as most of us either have had to or do work for a living.I think Mrs T encouraged an atmosphere of enterprise, if you had the nerve you felt that you could have your own business and maybe employ other people too. Of course in some instances this faith in oneself was entirely misplaced and many people came 'a cropper' but others took the opportunity and got on with it. To me, thats the spirit that seems lacking when I read about problems in France, the spirit of new enterprise, the ability to more easily start something up without being tied up in red tape.As for Mr Blair, I guess many are dissapointed, I am. The other day Carol Thatcher said that people used to dislike her mother and/or dislike her policies, but no one said 'actually I don't believe a word you say' and there are quite a few people I know that feel like that now.(Don't get me started on John Prescott............) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="le bouffon"]Thanks for that miki I was only fishing as Iwas not sure what line of business you were in.Re moth balling pits,itis not the case that coal as to to be mined to keep the mineviable,maybe that is just your london way,maybe you could send thethiefs muggers and any one else on parole or anyone with a hard doneby with a sob story down the pit to check them out,insteadof letting them go and commit murder.Maggie had the short sharpshock,and boy was she right.[/quote]Fishing !! yeh right, what a wally, if you didn't know by now my line of work you must be rip van idiot !What are you on about, a mine cannot be worked if it is shut down, whatare you saying, that it can be re-opened ? You talk utter rubbish, evenmore than our P.M here. Go down yourself, if you want to see proof thatthey cannot be re-opened. Maggie was out of your league financially andpolitically, she would have turned her nose up at the like of you andstill you want to grovel at her feet, sad, very sad. Get back with us working class, I will never defy my roots, a few weeksworking on a boat and you think you are Prince Albert.......... morelike Uncle Albert !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 "I think Mrs T encouraged an atmosphere of enterprise"Think being the operative word, sadly not actually true though. Just asmany folks, including some of our family and friends went bust or theirbusiness suffered badly in her period, than made good. It was not thatgreat an enterprising time for that many folks. A big time for gettingon the dole though. As she said "let the market decide" and so we lostcompany after company. Had Air France, B.F, Credit Lyonnaise andRenault to name a few been British at her time, they would nolonger be around or at least, not be in British hands. Look around andsee what legacy we have left, she preferred to pay it out in dole moneyand keep the lid on inflation (that was a laugh) more black days thanone could throw a hat at. We bought a place in Southern France andbefore the day was out, mortgage repayments had threatened to go up to25 % plus !! Oh what fun days eh !"....thats the spirit that seems lacking when I read about problemsin France, the spirit of new enterprise, the ability to more easilystart something up without being tied up in red tape"It's not the spirit that's missing, it is the incentives. The red tapeis certainly not insurmountable but when a new company knows that theywill be hit with such large costs, especially in the 3rd and regulatoryyear, it is often a case that they will eventually jack it in. Theproblem is that any reduction in cotisations in this area, will need tobe replaced elsewhere and there lies the rub............As for Mr Blair, I guess many are dissapointed, I am. The otherday Carol Thatcher said that people used to dislike her mother and/ordislike her policies, but no one said 'actually I don't believe a wordyou say' and there are quite a few people I know that feel like that now.Oh I think people say a lot more than that about her, Carol wasafter all talking about her aged Mother and I personally certainly knewmany who did not believe in too much she said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 MikiAs you may know, I am a genie in real life. Pretty second rate, but here's your reward for one of the funniest things I have seen here; It may not be quite the cup you hoped for this year....[IMG]http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i76/twinm/cup.jpg[/IMG] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crdale Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Logan"] It's an interesting concept. The system makes the people not the otherway round. A bit like chicken and egg, which comes first? [/quote] Chicken and egg laying in bed together having a cigarette one turns to the other and says I guess thats answered thatquestion![:$]Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Russethouse"]Kathy, I guess most people here have working class parents, and are working in class in so far as most of us either have had to or do work for a living. [/quote]I can't for the life of me see why you would assume that most people here have working class parents. As for your second point, you know perfectly well that working for a living is not the usual definition of working class. Is it the job of a moderator to wind people up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Do I scent inverted snobbery here by any chance ?I think the days of 'working class' meaning flatcap, racing pigeons and manual labour are long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Not inverted snobbery, just working class pride perhaps.Also some understanding of social divisions and a desire not to twist language to score points. Social class definitions are still alive and well in the work of social researchers and the marketing industry and if you think that the majority of members here are skilled or unskilled manual workers I'd be very surprised! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owens88 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 A discussion on class ? Bejaysus does this mean that France IS behind the times.For good or for bad the class system ain't what it was. I used to know the ABC1C2DE definitions off by heart (having got my diploma in Marketing sometime last century even though we knew them to be b*****ks even by the late 70's*) but looked them up recently for a discussion with my kids. Nowadays the relevant groupings are about behaviour and how you spend your money. So there is probably a demographic grouping of people 'either living away from their birth country or playing with it' (like me) which therefore includes most on this forum.However the NRS keep counting and in 2004 there were about 16% of UK adults in what used to be known as 'working class'.(*BTW Only the laziest marketer/ad exec continued to talk such tripe as 'ABC1.' by the 80's and beyond so I don't know why NRS bother.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I'm sure you know far about marketing than I do (you could hardly know less), but I have the NRS figures in front of me (a wonderful thing, the internet) and I think you have misread them. The 16% you quoted is for social class D with 21% in C2. I make this a total of 37%, without including group E. Whether this has any meaning beyond the page I wouldn't like to judge and I certainly don't want to take this subject any further. (I know my limitations!)Good Night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owens88 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Yep sorry I had excluded C2 (the page I was reading had an entertaining para excluding them as they were the rich plumbers of life and well away from the rest).http://www.businessballs.com/demographicsclassifications.htmThe E's are the have-nots and may have come from working class roots but not necessarily.Broadly speaking the 'working class' is above a third of UK adults and a lot less than a half.BTW sorry if I sounded pompous. I am a grey haired Chartered Marketer , so I know a bit about the subject, who doesn't always put hiis glasses on, so I often make mistakes anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 The internet really brings people together doesn't it? That was exactly the page I was looking at. Fortunately I was wearing my glasses as I can't see the keyboard ( I don't just mean the letters) without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 >>>However the NRS keep counting and in 2004 there were about 16% of UK adults in what used to be known as 'working class'<<<Isn't they key word 'used'Its not point scoring Kathy, but while it might prove a useful tool for marketeers (BTW my daughter is one) the idea of 'class' left my head many years ago, probably about the time I worked for what might then have been termed 'upper class' people - landed gentry etc. (Who also worked every day) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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