Dick Smith Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 I think he may have meant 'speak FOR Miki'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Could we get back to the topic please ?I suspect (although I am sure Miki & Dick will disagree) that the popularity of the BNP is something to do with the Conservative party being in a poor state and the main parties, Conservative and Labour being too close in policy at present. (thats if you know what Conservative policy is)If the Conservative party move to the right, this movement to the BNP may be dissipated. Its the lack of choice and the frustration that it brings that leads to this situation.IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 What I would like to see from the main parties is a clamp down on assylum seekers and illegal immigrants. Immigrants in my opinion are needed for the economy of the country. Not only to recruit those who are willing to clean toilets but also for the higher ranked jobs such as nursing which for some reason there is difficulty in recruiting british citizens.However, I am in 'wonderment' as to why Britains' intake of assylum seekers is higher per capita than the likes of France, Germany and even USA. (I can't remember where I got this info from maybe the Daily Mail and, if I am wrong I will be enlightened to be corrected as it is really bugging me)I would also, like Quillan like to quote somebody I know personally who worked away from home in London and stayed at a bit of a doss house of a hotel to keep his outgoings low to send home more money to his family. However, the owner of the hotel turfed all these workers out because more money was to be earned putting up these assylum seekers. Whilst I understand many of these people are geniune I think the huge majority are on a free meal ticket. Again please correct me if I am wrong with evidence please (which I admit is more than I have provided) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote user="Russethouse"]If the Conservative party move to the right, this movement to the BNP may be dissipated. Its the lack of choice and the frustration that it brings that leads to this situation.IMHO[/quote]It's wierd though isn't it, that one of the BNP's latest slogans is that they are now 'the Labour Party your grandparents voted for', yet they are clearly targetting dejected Tories too. So they are doing their best to appeal to people who would otherwise vote either way. I can't work out whether that is crude, or cunning, or both.When Miki quoted from 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist' (written pre WW1) the other night, and I was reminded that the skilled painters would sit around reading the 'Weekly Obscurer' and ranting in echos of what they read therin, about how 'foreigners' were taking peoples jobs. Then as now, it just wasn't the whole truth, (whether in a novel or a newspaper) or anything like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Apparently the Daily Wail has got its facts wrong!At least, according to one refugee support agency:http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/information/challengingthemyths1.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 >>It's wierd though isn't it, that one of the BNP's latest slogans is that they are now 'the Labour Party your grandparents voted for', yet they are clearly targeting dejected Tories too. So they are doing their best to appeal to people who would otherwise vote either way. I can't work out whether that is crude, or cunning, or both.<<<As I see it at least the aims of the BNP are clear, with the Conservatives and Labour party I think the electorate are confused as to who stands for what, and who can blame them when there is talk of sections of the education bill only getting through with opposition support etc.? Whatever my personal sympathies for Charles Kennedy, I really felt Liberal party had a possibility to make progress, provide a real alternative, but it was let slip.At present , while the battle for the Conservative & Labour parties is for the centre ground extremist parties of many types could gain popularity ,but when it comes to a general election ? I suspect that many peoples courage would desert them and they would vote for the 'traditional' partiesKKK a coupe of sites (although the info looks like it is up to 2002)http://www.ecre.org/factfile/facts.shtml#3http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/august02_index.php?l=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Dick I couldn't get that link to work, so having googled I'm posting a similar link from the same organisation. http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/information/challengingthemyths3.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 "....I suspect (although I am sure Miki & Dick will disagree) that thepopularity of the BNP is something to do with the Conservative partybeing in a poor state and the main parties, Conservative and Labourbeing too close in policy at present. (thats if you know whatConservative policy is)Why the sarcasm, is it the Mods night for it ? Dick and I have sufficient intelligence to see things the same orcompletely differently. Just because we don't agree with one Mod onhere, does that mean all Mods must disagree with us ?If it was solely anything to do with the Tory's being in a bad state alone, the BNP would be quite massive by now !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Nor could I Tresco but I cut and pasted it and it worked OK then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 >>If it was solely anything to do with the Tory's being in a bad state alone, the BNP would be quite massive by now !!!<<Quite - but I didn't say that ! (not the alone bit !) My opinion is that the policies of what, for convenience, we will call the major political parties are too close, people look for alternatives in that situation and smaller factions gain ground. Now we think we have democracy we like a choice to exercise the right to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 If it was solely anything to do with the Tory's being in a bad state alone, the BNP would be quite massive by now !!!"...Quite - but I didn't say that ! (not the alone bit !)"Well it's catching, I didn't say you did, I offered an opinion, thatdue to the many years of innefective and very poor Tory policies onemight have expected a somewhat larger increase in the BNP support butthankfully common sense is never too far from the surface.Did you or indeed do you play Rugby ? That was a neat side step to avoid the other question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote user="Russethouse"] As I see it at least the aims of the BNP are clear...[/quote]Gay, have you visited their site? Under policies/aims/our stance etc it is really quite waffly, they don't seem clear after a second glance. The first aim is 'voluntary repatriation, with 'generous incentives' for people who are not 'kindred' to the 'indigenous peoples of these islands'. (selective quoting, from more than one section, but I think it represents their position clearly). Even in the law and order, eduction, and health sections there are maybe 8 lines for each. They have 'aims', but no objectives - in other words, how their aims will be achieved. I do take them seriously. I read their site regularly, and I don't think 'clear' is a word I would choose to describe what they do there. How it comes across to other people is interesting to me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 "As per my last post, I may not have been there, just as you were not but someone with better knowledge than he"See there you go an assumption again. Well actually, funny enough, I was there and I know exactly what he said and what he meant, I paid particular attention because the conversation was so interesting. Who is this person to whom you refer that has greater knowledge than him (him being this Dean chap) because ( I don't mean to offend) I really don’t have a clue to whom you mean. There were also three other people there who totally agreed with the comments the dean made, two from the same university and one from a different university, all held similar senior positions.And yes I did mean ‘for’, sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 So this just gets more curious, you were wherever this lecture, meetingor whatever took place but have not been missing from this site, was itin your B&B house ? Or was it a while ago whilst on holiday ? The chap is one of my family (if you want to know who, PM me, asI don't wish his name to be on an open forum like this) and it is partof his profession, to very much know the proper facts of this kind ofthing. So now we have 3 who agree, adding up eh towho think that UK Universities are fast tumbling down around our ears with all these Johnnyforeigners taking up our places..................... total and utter bunkum.Two of us have told you, foreign students ahve long been a large partof funding....why you ignore so manyactual facts that have been saidtotally defeats me, it really does.I do notice that many of your stories evolve and things quite importantat the start can tend getput in as and when to suit your posts. I truly wonder about that. Irmember in your early days how much was left out and slowly things cameto light that were very important to the question but kinda got leftout !! Anyone else would simply havesaid that at a meeting/lecture or such like, the Dean of ....where everstated that.................... but no, it suddenly comes to youlater...sorry but I tend to prefer to not take too much notice whendiscussions take on bizarre new events that were pretty relevant sometime back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Tresco - I should have put that differently (and its difficult to put what I think without breaking the T &C) I think dislike of anything can be very unifying and this, it seems to me, is what they seek. As a party, are they ready or able to represent those they would like to represent ? I doubt it. Miki - forgot the Rugby question - sorry its all balls to me........actually that is how I did my shoulder in - I got too close in the scrum and my greater tuberosity cracked under the pressure [:'(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote user="Russethouse"]I think dislike of anything can be very unifying... [/quote]Yes indeed. Especially when it's 'dislike', or 'fear' of anything/anyone deemed as 'other'. That's why I take them seriously, because it's what they work on. Here's a quote from The Grand Master of Spin. "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it"Happy googling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Miki - forgot the Rugby question - Well if avoiding answering members questions is how the Modssee the way forward so be it and if you feel it is OK to haveunneccesary digs such as yours was, then it surely makes it open season the way I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 I thought you asked if I played rugby ? You and I and Dick and I have often demonstrated different views particularly when it comes to politics. I think you are reading something in where nothing was meant. I'm sorry if you misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 It has been said that in UK people vote AGAINST rather than FOR in elections. The threat/promise of BNP councillors is a fine argument to oppose "first past the post" and probably universal suffrage as well. Many people follow the Sun and will decide where to make their mark when they see the headlines on the day.But I should not criticise as I had exercised my right not to vote for some years and, let's face it, my vote never made a difference anyway.Johnnot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 We had dinner with a couple of British holiday home owners nearby yesterday evening. Coincidentally, he works in rugby administration in England, and she has a bichon frisé, but that's beside the point. What my point is, is that I had the Daily Mail (having worked for its parent company I can recognise it a mile off) quoted to me all night about what a state Britain is supposedly in, and any doubts I expressed were countered by the fact that I would see all of these ills for myself if I went back.What they probably don't realise is that I do go back on average every 3-4 weeks. So if anything had changed so much in the four years or so that I have lived mainly in France, I think I might have noticed something. Or maybe it's the rose tinted spectacles thing in reverse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 [quote user="Iceni"]It has been said that in UK people vote AGAINST rather than FOR in elections. The threat/promise of BNP councillors is a fine argument to oppose "first past the post" and probably universal suffrage as well. [/quote]Does this not apply to France as well? Voting for the FN to indicate that they're fed up with everything else? If that wasn't the case, then there's a worrying number of genuine FN fans around the place.What do you think of the French presidential election system? That's first-past-the-post in a different guise. The first round gives you the first two past the post, then the highest scorer out of those two becomes president. An extra layer of complication, if you ask me! Chirac was already the leader in the first round, the second one was a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 "..........I thought you asked if I played rugby ? "Yes, well as for that, best say nothing apart from, yes of course you did...................."........You and I and Dick and I have often demonstrated different viewsparticularly when it comes to politics. I think you are readingsomething in where nothing was meant. I'm sorry if you misunderstood"Accepted, we do not agree on politics but as you lot up on high have warned me (along with a strike)that if there is no smiley, you have told me, that one can only assumeit must have been meant nastily. OK, don't tell me, I know, onerule for you and one rule for us mere mortals.Why can't you take in the reason if I have told you, as to why theLiberals cannot easily increase their seats ? You still keep harping onthat the Libs missed an opportunity, do you really think they wanted tosimply "miss their opportunity" without a good reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Bill,I all too often get the same thing with holidaymakers. Never asked them about dogs though [:D]Sure, I suspect some things will have changed, imagine being away in1983 and coming back in the mid 80's and finding many mines shut.If you lived in Surrey then, you wouldn't have suspected anything (wellapart from the relentless drive for money !) but in other parts of thecountry, things weren't as welcome as they might have liked. So what I am saying, in a very roundabout way, is that in the UK thereare many lovely places to live and even better if you don't subscribeto some of the red tops but naturally, there will be places not sonice. When Brits move to France, they buy in areas that they see as"paradise" and again, not near the places that many of us know, wouldnot fit the bill as to where they wold prefer to live.So no, not rose coloured glasses really Bill, I think we all know thatthe UK has problems in certain area but we are bright enough to knowthat there are many areas that are not so nice here as well but tryingto convince some Brits that Britain is surely not all lager louts,immigration problems etc and all is not as it seems here, all to oftenfalls on deaf ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 [quote user="Miki"]"..........I thought you asked if I played rugby ? "Yes, well as for that, best say nothing apart from, yes of course you did...................."........You and I and Dick and I have often demonstrated different views particularly when it comes to politics. I think you are reading something in where nothing was meant. I'm sorry if you misunderstood"Accepted, we do not agree on politics but as you lot up on high have warned me (along with a strike) that if there is no smiley, you have told me, that one can only assume it must have been meant nastily. OK, don't tell me, I know, one rule for you and one rule for us mere mortals.Why can't you take in the reason if I have told you, as to why the Liberals cannot easily increase their seats ? You still keep harping on that the Libs missed an opportunity, do you really think they wanted to simply "miss their opportunity" without a good reason?[/quote]Lets deal with the political first - OK - you have (privately )given me a reason, how about the other possible Liberal voters ? If I was Josephine Bloggs I would be thinking, 'where were the Liberals when the Conservatives were floundering'? Surely that was the time to press home an advantage. Instead of that we have something of a bad year for the Liberals IMHO.Mod hat onBy 'you lot' I guess you mean 'the mods' - nowhere in this thread have either Quillan or I referred to our mod status, however all the mods have the right to expect the same degree of courtesy as any other forum member, if you are impolite or commit any other breach of the code of conduct and it involves a mod there is no more reason for any them to put up with it, than anyone else We are simply not going back to arguing the rights and wrongs of your 'strike' This is a forum for people with an interest in France, and that is what people want to discuss in the main, not forum politicsMod Hat off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 "....Lets deal with the political first - OK - you have(privately )given me a reason, how about the other possible Liberalvoters ? If I was Josephine Bloggs I would be thinking, 'wherewere the Liberals when the Conservatives were floundering'?Surely that was the time to press home an advantage. Instead of that wehave something of a bad year for the Liberals IMHO."What about the other voters? It is all related, themessage is put over in the normal places TV and papers etc, everyonegets their share of the voters from that source. Then we have to see what money is in the coffers to do the face to face or door to dooreveryday canvassing and THAT is where the votes needed in aconstituency which is winnable by two (or of course on occasion, three)of the parties are gained or indeed lost. So you have Labour and the Tory's on one hand and it is extremelywell documented how much money they pull in and how much they canafford to pay (either in ex's or by "hiring" footsloggers, poor choicebut apt in many cases) and then you have the Liberals !! They are sadly, or not, a million miles back in terms of money, footsoldiers and in general any assistance they require to push home anysuch possible advantage. They have to defend what they have and thenstill put forces in to the marginals, that leaves them completely andutterly overstretched to fight all the seats in the manner required, asthat would need all their resources which they simply do not possess atthe present time.Now if you know of a way they can go forward without having theneccessary things I have told you to fight on equal terms, do let themknow, as you appear to think you know (by saying they never pressedhome any advantage, I think that qualifies you to therefore have knownwhat they should have done ! but within their power of course and nofantasy thoughts please).Mod hat onBy 'you lot' I guess you mean 'the mods' - nowhere in thisthread have either Quillan or I referred to our mod status, however allthe mods have the right to expect the same degree of courtesy as anyother forum member, if you are impolite or commit any other breachof the code of conduct and it involves a mod there is no morereason for any them to put up with it, than anyone else We are simply not going back to arguing the rights and wrongsof your 'strike' This is a forum for people with an interest in France,and that is what people want to discuss in the main, not forum politicsMod Hat offGood guess and notsurprisingly, quite correct. No need to mention whether you are Mods isthere, surely not ? Or are we all to take it, that we are thickas planks and we don't know who the Mods are ? So you mention that Modsshould expect courtesy but it appears you have forgotten (?) to saythat Members can also expect the same respect from the Mods and that I believe is where too many discrepancies have crept in.This is a forum forFrance but this just happens to be the Post Bag, where other matters,French or otherwise can be discussed. Just because you don't like somematters being discussed and I don't mean this one in particular, is not the critertia for anyone posting whatever they want, withinreason is it ?No what I think youactually mean is, don't mention any wrong things the Mods mightdo.............by the way, you mention WE, as has justbeen told me to me today, it can often appear that some Mods can act in arather renegade fashion and perhaps that is why the consistency varies so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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