We are in France so we must speak French...why?

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="tj"]

Lets not forget, they do hate the brits generally, never forgiven us for helping them out in the war, go figure!!

[/quote]

Is that true, or is it just a statement of prejudice? I have never found it to be the case, and I have actually been a member of a French 'war' association and discussed this matter with other members. It isn't true of my neighbours in Normandy, or the assorted old men I have discussed it with. And that is in Normandy, which was most affected by the Allied offensive of 1944.

And has anyone ever seen any signs of the Brits (!) being 'hated generally'? I certainly haven't - but I think as Bugbear said in response to an earlier post an attitude is displayed which may explain why some people feel that way.

[Catalpa]

Maybe most of us give off an attitude - whether we're permanent or part-time residents - that we want to be here and are happy to be here. And obviously speaking French is part of that. Maybe that's why - judging from the posts above - our encounters with France are generally positive. 

[Dick Smith]

I think that is right.

[Christine Animal]

Mutual respect.   [:)]

 

[Miki]

Sorry Dick,

I have found it a couple of times. I posted about this a while back on here.

Some years ago, we were over to the West of Brittany and I was saddened to see so many of the same name on the local memorial to the dead of the 39-45 war. I mentioned this a to a few old chaps standing around by the said memorial. One chap said yes it was indeed very sad, another one sounded rather disgruntled and let out a tirade of accusations about how we anglais left them to deal with the hun, whilst we (the anglais) simply fled to safety. I saw no point in replying with the obvious but let him tell me of all of his anger at us. I told him my Father had came over, seen his regiment speadeagled all over the north to find their own way to Dunkirk. A soldiers choice was just to follow orders, no intentional heroics for the majority, just obey and try to look after yourself as much as possible. I went on for a while until I saw his face crumple and his friend hold his sholders. The other man told me that the family I had pointed out was the old mans family. Sure I felt pretty bad but....................

I had the same kind of debate down near Boulogne, different circumstances but again, the same call of how we run away. We can argue all we like but none of us having been in their shoes at that time, won't have clue what they went though. sure I tried to hold up the British side of it all but every time, they came back with fair points form their angle.

OK we can all look back and see the final eventuality and wonder why they they cannot all see, it was for the good of all but in the meantime, it wasn't I guess, for some of them.

[YCCMB]

If my experiences are anything to go by, I've been spending time in another country altogether than the one in which Wen is living!

OK, my French is pretty good, and what I lack in correct grammar or vocabulary I make up for in being lucky enough to have almost no English accent (apparently) so in short bursts I can almost get away with not being "outed" as a Brit. Some of my French friends and acquaintances really enjoy trying out their English, on any available British person. The patron of our local in particular enjoys being able to use his Brit customers as a means of increasing his English vocabulary, and the worst I've had to cope with is being used as a "spokesperson" for the Brits in the area by locals who, when they find out I speak reasonable French, will ask me all the questions they've been saving up for the day they find a Brit with enough French to be able to answer them.

TOH, who relies on hand signals and an eclectic mix of disjointed words, hasn't had any problems either (although, in fairness, he'd be less likely to realise if he had!)

[Bugsy]

[quote user="tj"]

Lets not forget, they do hate the brits generally, never forgiven us for helping them out in the war, go figure!!

[/quote]

What a load of b*****ks. No-one who has never lived under hostile occupation can possibly understand what it must have been like, no-one.

I shoot at our local gun club with several french veterans. They have welcomed me with open arms (I'm the only brit member) and delight in telling me stories of the war and the heroics of french resistance fighters that make your hair curl.

In general terms and excluding parisians (who don't like anyone[:)]) providing you live here and assimulate yourself into the 'way' of life here, you will usually be made very welcome.

Form a commune of brits with 'perfect lawns' and cucumber sandwiches and the french will take the 'p*** out of you. A pretty reasonable response in my book.

[Miki]

[quote] TOH, who relies on hand signals and an eclectic mix of disjointed

words, hasn't had any problems either (although, in fairness, he'd be

less likely to realise if he had!) [/quote]

Although agreeing with a lot of what you say Betty dear, it is the part in quotes that really has to be thought more about. The number of times I have been with friends and chatting with the locals or whoever and friends have said "what did they say" and I have come up with a load of balloney to make them laugh, they sometimes think I am being honest in my translation, in which case, just think of how many Brits over here will think that a smile and a comment means all is OK and a sad look with a comment means someone having a pop...we all know that does not neccessarily add up, so yes, simple to think all is OK in the world but also as easy to think all French are nasty peeps..........................[:)]

[Miki]

[quote] Form a commune of brits with 'perfect lawns' and cucumber sandwiches

and the french will take the 'p*** out of you. A pretty reasonable

response in my book. [/quote]

Does that exclude Brits coming over with lush shiny new motorbikes and big cars ? [:)][;-)] Round here those folks would stand out more than a cucumber sandwich  !!

And a lot of people in our commune have lovely lawns and indeed the competition for best garden of many styles, is seriously fought for by the locals and I won't mention the vegetable competitions !! [:)]

[Teamedup]

I am a great believer in parlez-vous'ing in France. It is the least we can do if we chose to live chez eux, we weren't invited and we weren't forced either, we just came.

As I have said it has been hard for me. And as I have my 'accent', well there are french folks who have my problem ie 'not the ear' and so don't 'get' what I say. A bit like the indian lady at the slimmers meetings in Little Britain. So when this happens to me and people don't understand me, well I have to make more of an effort to help them understand, it isn't their fault after all.

I was in a main post office once and the lady smiled at me and said that I spoke very good french, but she couldn't understand a word I said. Only she had really, as she served me properly.

Yes I have heard that my petit accent is mignonne. I don't think it is, but there is no accounting for taste, is there.

 

Just a question, do any of you recognise your own voice?

 

Wen, if anyone speaks in english to me I answer in french. IF they don't understand me, I keep going until they do. What I must agree with is that there are some expertly rude people in France doing jobs they should never be doing, EG serving the public.

 And re the person and the dentist and wanting an english speaker. Well, as most people don't do what we did and up sticks and move to France within weeks, then they are sort of planning the move. They start checking out areas and houses etc, if the posts on here are anything to go by. So WHY on earth are they not learning the language. There is no excuse, and I ask myself if they are stupid or lazy or both and I am so glad that there is not a cat in thingy's chance that they will be living anywhere near me.

[Dick Smith]

Miki - the quote said that all French people hate the British for helping them out in the war.

Do you think that is true, because I certainly don't. I once had a long chat with a couple of old men who had been at Dunkirk, as had my father. There was no hatred over the evacuation - they understood better than that. And if they hated all Brits for it, buying me a drink was an odd way of showing it.

If I was a Norman I'd be pretty hacked off by the wanton destruction of Caen, Mortain etc for not much military purpose - and yet that feeling doesn't seem to be present. You only get that criticism in English books.

[Coco]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]
If I was a Norman I'd be pretty hacked off by the wanton destruction of Caen, Mortain etc for not much military purpose - and yet that feeling doesn't seem to be present. You only get that criticism in English books.
[/quote]

Not quite Dck.  We're further north than you - 15km south of St Lo and I can tell you that when we went to the AGM of the "FLeurs de la Memoire" association a couple of years ago we found quite a lot of French people who were indeed "pretty hacked off" with the destruction of this area; (there aren't too many pretty old villages round here, they all got flattened).  Many also built up quite good relations with the German soldiers who had been here for 4 years without causing any destruction, unlike the Brits and Americans, who totally flattened the area in a matter of weeks.  Ultimately, however, I think that generally they realised, hard as it may be to accept, that it was for the greater good.

Back to Wen's comments and I have to agree with the general concensus in that "when in France..."   Why should we expect any French person to have to speak English to us?  I can't think of a single person in my old community in England who would have been able to, let alone have the inclination to, speak french, or any other foreign language to a newcomer to the village.

Only this evening I spke to a neighbour who was extremely friendly and chatty on the phone, who, 4 years ago, on our arrival to the village constantly told us how we MUST learn French because we now lived in France.  No matter how often I told him (in French) that we were trying our hardest, he seemed oblivious of the fact;mainly because at the time we had several other Brit households in the area who were making no attempt at all.  Since his dad retired from supplying wood to us a couple of months ago I've been dreading phoning him because of his normally negative attitude but tonight he was sooooo friendly and I know it's because we've made the effort to learn the language.  But then, why should he have to try and speak English to us?  We're the outsiders.  I most certainly would be most accepting of any foreign neighbours I had in England, and would have helped them if they were struggling with their English, but I would have expected them to have at least made an effort to try and learn the language.

[Dick Smith]

OK, I accept that - in fact as I said earlier, I would expect it, I just don't seem to have met it.

But the contention I was challenging was that all French people hated the English because we helped them in WW2.

I don't see any evidence at all of that statement being true.

On your other point, about language, I am sure that civilised people anywhere try to learn a little bit (even if just a greeting) of a neighbour's language, but if that neighbour does not speak the language of the country in which they find themselves, and makes no effort to learn, their patience is limited.

I know, for example, that my neighbour speaks a bit of English. He has never spoken English to me, though. I think that he doesn't want to embarrass himself, rather than expecting me to be fluent (which I am far from being). He is very happy to help my French along, though, and I am grateful that he does.

What I have noticed is that adults are much better at understanding poor French than children. Presumably that comes from having less experience, less language skills or something similar.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Miki"][quote] TOH, who relies on hand signals and an eclectic mix of disjointed words, hasn't had any problems either (although, in fairness, he'd be less likely to realise if he had!) [/quote]

Although agreeing with a lot of what you say Betty dear, it is the part in quotes that really has to be thought more about. The number of times I have been with friends and chatting with the locals or whoever and friends have said "what did they say" and I have come up with a load of balloney to make them laugh, they sometimes think I am being honest in my translation, in which case, just think of how many Brits over here will think that a smile and a comment means all is OK and a sad look with a comment means someone having a pop...we all know that does not neccessarily add up, so yes, simple to think all is OK in the world but also as easy to think all French are nasty peeps..........................[:)]
[/quote]

 

I think, Miki, that your point was my point anyway. [:)] In a way, the less you understand, the less (or the more) there is to worry about. It's easy to imagine, if you're that way inclined, that your request for a 5 amp fuse, which has just been delivered in French equivalent to the standard of the policeman in 'Allo 'Allo, has been received with a cheery smile by the guy behind the counter, when in fact he's trying not to roll on the floor laughing. Equally, you can develop a persecution complex on behalf of the entire anglophone race if he frowns and starts shouting, simply because you're blissfully unaware that he's actually shouting "Jean-Philippe, where the hell did you put that box of 5 amp fuses and get off the phone to your mistress, there's a queue out here!"

[Quillan]

You can’t live in a country and not speak the language. I thought you could 5 years ago but I was wrong. How well you speak the language is a different matter.

My French is poor but when I arrived here I could not speak any. My line of work has made it difficult to have lessons although I have had some be they few and far between. I have CD’s and books and I do what I can which I tell myself is better than nothing. I try to learn a couple of words every day, just one or two, not much but it’s better than nothing. I seem to have a rather large dictionary permanently attached to me, like a ball and chain. I will never be fluent, I know that, but I do the best I can.

I would like to think I get on with the people in our village very well and personally can’t say anything bad about them even if I am referred to as the Englishman who lives down by the river. I play a small (almost minuscule) part in our village life, helping here and there. I actively support our local rugby club with a couple of other English people and am quite well known there in the nicest way. I was always taught that good manners and civility costs nothing in life which I believe helps. It’s an old fashioned thing but it seems to be well received in France which seems to be full of protocol.

My problem is the language, I try hard, but my two biggest problems are pronunciation (never been able to role an ‘R’) and lack of vocabulary. The latter excludes me to a degree of having any in depth chats which spurs me on to learn more. The language down here is different to the north of France with a more ‘Spanishy’ pronunciation to the point when even Parisians have a problem understanding.

One of the problems as I said is my pronunciation and the inability to make some of the sounds. I come across a minority of French who appear to make no effort to understand my poor pronunciation where the others (the bulk) look at me a bit odd, I try again and again before they get the drift and correct me which is a great help.

I can understand wanting to find a doctor or consultant that speaks English because my vocabulary is so small. I am afraid, as others may be, that if I get it wrong I will get treated for something I don’t have. Sort of arrive with a broken finger and end up having a leg cut off type of thing. Silly I know but if you don’t have much confidence in your ability to speak the language to a ‘technical’ level then it’s nice to have the fall back of a doctor or whatever being able to speak some English. So in some ways I can sympathise with Emma in the other thread and whilst I understand where others were coming from but I didn’t think they needed to be quite so harsh.

I personally can’t see that doctors, consultants and specialists have only started to learn English because we are here as another poster implied. I am reliably informed by those that I have seen that it’s more to do with the fact that a lot of technical ‘papers’ are written in English and that to keep ahead of the field it’s really good to be able to at least read English.

That is not so silly as you think because looking at it from my side I can understand more written French that I can speak because, as somebody famous once said, 60% of English is French just badly pronounced (or was it the other way round [;-)]).

The War, the War, it normally comes up in these type of debates, discussions or whatever you want to call them. We all have a different angle but the more important thing is to remember ALL the people who died because one person or a small group of others. Unfortunately as humans we never learn because we go off and do it time and time again.

My, now departed, mother-in-law only visited us once in France but said she would never come back. She had never forgiven the French saying that they were all cowards. The reason, she lived in the East end during the war, her father was a stevedore and if the French had put up more of a fight she would not have had her house bombed and so many of her friends and family killed. Probably not the right way to think but you have to see it through her eyes. We tried to get her to understand what it must have been like when the allies invaded France and they blew up all these French towns, her reply was along the lines of ‘good now they know what it’s like’. We could never win with her (can you ever with your mother-in-law?).

My region of France almost welcomed the Germans, they transported more Jews to the death camps voluntarily (without German assistance) than anywhere else in France. Only a handful of resistance fighters until the allies landed and got near at which point their ranks swelled by several thousands. There has been a big debate about the old transit camp at Perpignan, should it be knocked down or not? One side says it is a stain on French modern history the other says it should stay in memory of those that past through it and to remind people what happens when you collaborate. Who’s right and who’s wrong and who are we to say?

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Miki"]

Does that exclude Brits coming over with lush shiny new motorbikes and big cars ? [:)][;-)] Round here those folks would stand out more than a cucumber sandwich  !!

[/quote]

LOL Miki,  We've got an 11 year old Jeep, a 16 year old Citroen AX and a 5 year old Motorcycle. Hardly decadent I think.

What's in your garage ?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

What I have noticed is that adults are much better at understanding poor French than children. Presumably that comes from having less experience, less language skills or something similar.

[/quote]

[:)] Surely this is simply because the young choose to wilfully misunderstand? I notice when I get on my hind legs and try and din some English into the little blighters they can understand every syllable, because, I suspect, that they know any transgressions will be reported to their mums (not by me - by the real teachers: I'm a far easier touch). This ability they mysteriously lose once they set foot outside the gate...

[Bob T]

I have only just read this thread for the first time. I find that tj, must be on another planet! We have been here for just over 2 years now and spoke no French when we arrived. We do not live in an ex-pat community, but have a few British freinds. Our French has improved without taking lessons, apart from the Micheal Thomas CDs. I meet the locals and chat with them in our local town whenever I can. Our farmer freind brings us wood at a very low price, but at 73 he does not intend to learn English. He comes in and has a cup of coffee with us, we go to his farm and do the same. Jude makes him a cake for his birthday and we oftern pop over and take him something if she has been baking.

What we didn't realise was that he is a well known figure in the village, and has told everybody about the nice English people who ride the big motorbikes. If we go into the village in our new 4X4 and park up, no one look over and is jealous, that is not the way they are here, and we don't look down on anyone else.

I have had dealings with many medicale people in Perigueux and used my little bit of French, others have tried their english on me and I have never dealt with anyone who did not have a big smile and did not appreciate me trying to speak their language.

The locals that I know seem to appreciate the fact that I have come to live in a place that they love and call home, and have given us a warm welcome. I think that is more than most immegrants would get in the UK in a small rural village.

[Lori]

[quote user="beryl"]

If I want to spend money, everyone can understand me even if it takes a while.

If I want to complain - forget it [:D]

[/quote]

I have to agree with you on that one.  Just  yesterday I spent nearly 20 minutes on the phone with Cegetel trying to explain to them, in French, what an ISP in the U.S.A. required them to do to be removed from the U.S. ISP's Blocked List.  It really wasn't easy and at first the Technical "Assistant" was laughing at me.  Then, I got really serious and a bit angry, not because she was perhaps snickering at my accent and less than perfect French, but because I had been trying to get this matter resolved for months now.  When my voice grew a little bit louder, she began to take me more seriously.

I think if you are going to live in a country, you must make an effort to learn as much of the language as you can.  It will have an enormous effect on quality of your life in that country.  As to whether or not the French should be able to converse in English, well I certainly don't expect it.  When it happens it is a treat.  Just learned the local Pharmacist speaks pretty decent English.  I never knew that and told her so.  She said, she speaks terrible, but she really doesn't...

And as to Doctors, well our local GP can understand a good bit of English, but he won't speak any.  Here again, I suspect he would feel embarassed to make any mistakes.  That's okay.  I just continue speaking in French and making my own mistakes.

I do believe that the poster who asked if anyone knew of an English speaking Dentist should not be jumped on.  I do not know their circumstances, so would be very hesitant to make judgements.

[Teamedup]

Something strikes me about the medical aspect of this. In english we don't use the 'medical' terms to describe many ailments. Would it be the doctors fault IF they misunderstood spoken english and mistreat the patient ? I wouldn't blame any doctor, dentist or pharmacist for only speaking french.

I was in hospital for quite some time last year. They hadn't even got the time for french speakers, never mind having to run around after foreigners who live in France and hadn't learnt. As I said before, most people plan the move to France, they don't do it over night, so why don't  they just start learning.

 

[Dick Smith]

Your first point had occurred to me, TU. In a litigous world it is presumably better to remove all chances of misunderstanding.

[Andymr]

When we arrived, a year ago, first job was to sort out some electrics, wall lights etc. Our immobiliere arranged a local guy to call,  he said he spoke no english. We thought he'd quote and then we would wait patiently for his return. No! he returned to his van and did the jobs there and then. When it came time to pay we asked  in poor French how much, his first word was CASH?[Www]

[Suze01]

On the black then [;-)]

[Miki]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

[quote user="Miki"]

Does that exclude Brits coming over with lush shiny new motorbikes and big cars ? [:)][;-)] Round here those folks would stand out more than a cucumber sandwich  !!

[/quote]

LOL Miki,  We've got an 11 year old Jeep, a 16 year old Citroen AX and a 5 year old Motorcycle. Hardly decadent I think.

What's in your garage ?

[/quote]

Zilch. we ain't got a garage [:P] We live in a box alongside the quatre voies [:)]

Our near neighbour has a 1955 rare vehicule, said by the Maire to be worth €40,000 minimum. It ain't the age, it's how it comes across to others. Many years ago, we had a friend who moved near Mussidan, spent a fortune on the place, had a  new Landrover Discovery and drove around like jack the lad.... A few years later, he admitted to me, that I was right, coming over, somewhat OTT impresses the paysannes little and how sorry he was to have acted so pathetic. He's actually a  very nice chap but for two years, he thought money and a big motor would impress, it did...A few neighbours told me that he was come across as a gros tête and he wasn't..He couldn't speak French, he couldn't understand the body language and then one day something clicked !!! Oh how it clicked,  Disco sold and so arrived the Renault, then all the neighbours asked him what had happened to la belle voiture.......funny peeps les française [;-)]

[Cat]

I think that often people decide to move here, do some research, think about learning/improving French, and then decide that they will be able to "get by", and would rather move to France sooner and sort out the language when they arrive..

What I found quite quickly after arrival was that schoolgirl French was simply not enough if I wanted to be independent and not have to rely on the kindness of others.

Sure, we might hope that we can find someone who speaks English, or can translate for us.  But we mustn't expect it.

So no harm in asking, really.