France is wealthier than UK!!!!!!!

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"]
I kept asking him why if the French economy was such a basket case her GDP was one of the world's largest. This he was unable to answer. I've asked the same question to quite a lot of people and no-one has ever been able to explain this paradox to me. I would genuinely like to know. The money must be coming from somewhere.
[/quote]

Surprised a merchant banker didn't offer any theories. A few I've heard bandied about include the economy being propped up for a while now by a number of very well performing private multinationals (some heavily state aided) and Public Companies allowed to compete internationally with non state aided foreign companies, as well as much Disneyland  Public Accounts (That made me laugh[:D]).

With what I've learnt since my return, the perceived state of being 'better off' that many state on this forum, is a huge mystery to me too, as far as the average French population is concerned. That's not to compare it to any other country, as that doesn't really make any difference to the plight of people here. I don't doubt for one minute that the expats have a fabulous time if they don't have to worry about the little things like paying rent (assuming you can get someone to rent to you), paying mortgages, finding a job even if you are highly qualified, getting small luxuries on credit and so forth.

[cooperlola]

Good to see you back here, LdG.

One's view of anything is naturally skewed by one's own personal experiences and circumstances.

Back in my former home in the UK I had several French friends.  All lived in the UK because, in spite of the house prices which we find crippling, they were better off there and knew it, for the simple reason that they could actually get jobs, which had been impossible for them in their native country. And as for starting a small business, I have sat and listened to two of my friends - one of whom has a business here and the other one in the UK (both are artisans and both are French).  The French-domiciled one is downright envious of the ease which the other has in running a business and the relatively low tax and contribution rates - especially as an employer.  They do not view Britain in anything like the same way that some who have moved over here in relative economic comfort seem to.

[Tom]

Because of the high costs of actually employing a human being in France, French industry has invested heavily in automation. Much more than in the UK. 

You could say that this is a waste of human potential and makes it  difficult for unskilled workers to get jobs.

[Weedon]

I suppose it depends on what you think of as rich and poor.  It is my (limited) experience of "rich" people that they spend most of their lives worrying about the state of their wealth, whether it is the fall of the Pound against the Euro or the current state of the UK housing market.  I imagine most brits coming to France do so because they would like to enrich their lives rather than make their fortunes.

 I wouldn't mind betting that my neighbours are not terribly excited about the rise in the Euro's performance.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="LanguedocGal"]

[quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"]

I kept asking him why if the French economy was such a basket case her GDP was one of the world's largest. This he was unable to answer. I've asked the same question to quite a lot of people and no-one has ever been able to explain this paradox to me. I would genuinely like to know. The money must be coming from somewhere.

[/quote]

Surprised a merchant banker didn't offer any theories. A few I've heard bandied about include the economy being propped up for a while now by a number of very well performing private multinationals (some heavily state aided) and Public Companies allowed to compete internationally with non state aided foreign companies, as well as much Disneyland  Public Accounts (That made me laugh[:D]).

With what I've learnt since my return, the perceived state of being 'better off' that many state on this forum, is a huge mystery to me too, as far as the average French population is concerned. That's not to compare it to any other country, as that doesn't really make any difference to the plight of people here. I don't doubt for one minute that the expats have a fabulous time if they don't have to worry about the little things like paying rent (assuming you can get someone to rent to you), paying mortgages, finding a job even if you are highly qualified, getting small luxuries on credit and so forth.

[/quote]

Oh he offered theories, but they were pretty flimsy and none really amounted to an explanation. Not one that bore cursory scrutiny, anyway. I don't know what your experience is like of merchant bankers but they quite often appear disturbingly ignorant. Disturbing in that they have control of my much of my pension pot and they have a habit of getting involved in things that they seemingly don't understand - derivative intsruments based on ropey debt, weather futures (big with Enron those were) and that sort of thing.

I"m sure the average French person on an average income probably dosen't feel particularly well off, no more than an average Brit (not since getting credit for those "small luxuries" became a bit more tricky), American, German, Spaniard or Italian would. Certainly none of my friends and neighbours are complaining about having too much filthy lucre.

[raindog]

[quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"]

Certainly none of my friends and neighbours are complaining about having too much filthy lucre.

[/quote]

Too much? Just wondering if they could slip a bit my way....[:D]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Tom"]

Because of the high costs of actually employing a human being in France, French industry has invested heavily in automation. Much more than in the UK. 

You could say that this is a waste of human potential and makes it  difficult for unskilled workers to get jobs.

[/quote]

Japan leads the World in industrial automation: mainly since their government funded both industry and universities during the critical early R & D and industrial loss days. Korea follows.

Italy, particularly Fiat were probably the first European major user of industrial automation.

Thatcher refused point blank to aid the only UK company working on leading-edge industrial robotics. There's a big fat surprise!

A major benefit to robotics applied to any industrial process, is replication: cars for example tend to follow much tighter tolerances.

Whilst CAD-CAM (Computer Aided Design-Computer Aided Manufacturing),  presaged robotics, the current goal is CIM: Computer Integrated Manufacturing, where the whole process from initial conception of an idea  to actual manufacture is computer dedicated.

Evaluation of the current business models demonstrates that robotics does not in fact throw skads of industrial workers onto the breadline. It allows rapid economic expansion.

Haven't hear about any food riots in Tokyo or Seoul, as yet!

That assumes, of course, that a state enjoys an enlightened government and skilled and intelligent management.

Many industrial processes, silicon production and packaging for example, are only suitable for robotics as the working tolerances are now down to fractions of a micron (A micron is  one millionth of a metre!).

In the UK, perhaps JCB, alone, stand out as one of the very few remaining manufacturers who early on adopted robotics: interestingly they also remain a star export performer and profit earner. Year after year. And most interesting of all, they remain a private company, which Tony Bamford (son of the founder and architect of the modern business) stated was one of their reasons for success. They didn't need to kowtow to the idiot merchant bankers and share wheeler dealers in the City! JCB are one of the top five excavator manufacturers.

France enjoys a significantly high level of industrial automation: hence the success of many of its globally leading companies, such as SGS-Thompson, a joint venture between SGS Telfonica, Italy and Thompson, France. SGS-Thompson is now in the top five silicon companies globally, thanks to the wisdom and industry savvy of its managers.

The UK, er............. doesn't have any silicon manufacturers of any note.

In a knoweldge age.

France has its own computer business, such as Bull. The UK has none, the last, ICT having been flogged off to Fujitsu-Hitachi, by the idiot who then nearly bankrupted BT! During an explosive growth cycle for ICT.

Still, at least the UK has zillions of share wheeler dealers, bond traders and merchant bankers...................................................

[Www]

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="raindog"][quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"]

Certainly none of my friends and neighbours are complaining about having too much filthy lucre.

[/quote]

Too much? Just wondering if they could slip a bit my way....[:D]

[/quote]

If they ever get any I'll let you know.

One thing that did interest me, talking to one of my friends who farms, is that for the first time in living memory (I exagerate perhaps) the farming sector is feeling optimistic. He had been drinking at the time, hence the unguarded comment. The combination of high grain prices, the abolition of set-aside for this coming season and continuing increases in demand from China appearantly mean that the French farming sector could have a real bumper year (spare me the comments about subsidies please) and could pay down quite a lot of debt that has been dogging the indusrty for years. Some farmers are even agitating for an end to the CAP...

[Tom]

[quote user="Gluestick"][quote user="Tom"]

Because of the high costs of actually employing a human being in France, French industry has invested heavily in automation. Much more than in the UK. 

You could say that this is a waste of human potential and makes it  difficult for unskilled workers to get jobs.

[/quote]

Japan leads the World in industrial automation: mainly since their government funded both industry and universities during the critical early R & D and industrial loss days. Korea follows.

Italy, particularly Fiat were probably the first European major user of industrial automation.

Thatcher refused point blank to aid the only UK company working on leading-edge industrial robotics. There's a big fat surprise!

A major benefit to robotics applied to any industrial process, is replication: cars for example tend to follow much tighter tolerances.

Whilst CAD-CAM (Computer Aided Design-Computer Aided Manufacturing),  presaged robotics, the current goal is CIM: Computer Integrated Manufacturing, where the whole process from initial conception of an idea  to actual manufacture is computer dedicated.

Evaluation of the current business models demonstrates that robotics does not in fact throw skads of industrial workers onto the breadline. It allows rapid economic expansion.

Haven't hear about any food riots in Tokyo or Seoul, as yet!

That assumes, of course, that a state enjoys an enlightened government and skilled and intelligent management.

Many industrial processes, silicon production and packaging for example, are only suitable for robotics as the working tolerances are now down to fractions of a micron (A micron is  one millionth of a metre!).

In the UK, perhaps JCB, alone, stand out as one of the very few remaining manufacturers who early on adopted robotics: interestingly they also remain a star export performer and profit earner. Year after year. And most interesting of all, they remain a private company, which Tony Bamford (son of the founder and architect of the modern business) stated was one of their reasons for success. They didn't need to kowtow to the idiot merchant bankers and share wheeler dealers in the City! JCB are one of the top five excavator manufacturers.

France enjoys a significantly high level of industrial automation: hence the success of many of its globally leading companies, such as SGS-Thompson, a joint venture between SGS Telfonica, Italy and Thompson, France. SGS-Thompson is now in the top five silicon companies globally, thanks to the wisdom and industry savvy of its managers.

The UK, er............. doesn't have any silicon manufacturers of any note.

In a knoweldge age.

France has its own computer business, such as Bull. The UK has none, the last, ICT having been flogged off to Fujitsu-Hitachi, by the idiot who then nearly bankrupted BT! During an explosive growth cycle for ICT.

Still, at least the UK has zillions of share wheeler dealers, bond traders and merchant bankers...................................................

[Www]

[/quote]

I agree that automation should be a good thing. Free up people's time to do something more creative etc.  But a lot of people(myself included) need a reason to get out of bed in the morning. Even if the job is boring.

The French state could stop putting barriers in the way of starting  your own business and make it easier to raise capital.

I guess that's on Sarkozy's list of things to do and one of the things the French voted for.

[jon]

 

Tom I can see that your eyes and mind are wide open.

You are looking at facts rather than creating a war amongs forum members Surely .....if we have...[some of us moved to France} it is because is attactive...and UK ...perhaps is not so attractive{at the moment because of poor leadership]

I have been accused of many things over the last few weeks by people who can only respect their own view.I have been told that I am lacking in confidence, over confident, negative and too positive!Someone has judged me as senile and another said that I  liked large dogs, net curtains etc.

I like to see people win...I like to see others enjoy life...so I like watching  the ex factor, listiening to  Amy Winehouse and respect the talents of many contemporary sculpters, get very bored by T.V chefs except Heston  and Hugh Fernely-Whittinstal.The exterior of my house is historical...inside is my interpritation of good taste which marries old and new.

I agree that it is exspensive to employ labour here and that the changes in the health system mean that some people will have to find a way.....some early retired may have to find some work or begin a small enterprise.On the other hand UK has handed out too much to too many and that it is all getting out of hand.The UK goverment has lost control of immagration[.I have a contact working as an immagration officer in Portsmouth] the police struggle with crime in London......obvious to those who live/lived there.The hospital managements and their budgets need reform......imperative.

I should ask some of you...Why are you here....if  the life in uk is better?

[raindog]

[quote user="jon"]

 

.On the other hand UK has handed out too much to too many and that it is all getting out of hand.The UK goverment has lost control of immagration. the police struggle with crime in London......obvious to those who live/lived there.The hospital managements and their budgets need reform......imperative.

[/quote]

Almost all the French people I know say exactly the same thing about France [:)]

[jon]

Ok   but is it really true?Is there not enough space here in France?Are the hospital over crowded?
A problem will always exist in the m inds of those who want something for nothing...and that is not possable...someone else...somewhere will be paying the price if not today but next month.

Why are you all here?
I have explained why I am here it would be nice if you all opened up  rather than remaining critical.

 

[Cerise]

jon - like many others you seem assume that if someone moved to France it was because they were unhappy in the UK.  Not so necessarily.  I like both countries  and we moved here to see what it was like for real and to have an adventure.  We were not rich or retired and knew that the only income we would have where ever we landed up would be that which we could earn.  And that for me is the problem - it is incredibly difficult to earn a living.  Both my husband and I are hardworking and not afraid to do whatever it takes to earn the necessary cash BUT we can't.  We do work, my husband has re-trained, has a CDI, works for a French firm and at 47earns no more than our young nephew earns shoving trollies round supermarket carparks in his college holidays in UK.  Not very inspiring I'm afraid.  I don't want to be retired but run B & B because no-one will employ me.  It is easy for people to say well go back to UK then, but unless we can sell our house here we couldn't do that easily (no other capital you see) and we have acquaintances who would like to do just that but their house has now been on market for 2 years.

If you have plenty of money in the first place then it actually doesn't matter where you live.  I notice that the majority of people who say how much 'better' life is here are retired or still commute to UK to work.  Many of them speak little French, read the UK papers and watch English TV.  Their contact with French 'friends' is limited to bonjour in the bar and an occasional apero.  I lived in rural England so am to a certain extent comparing like with like.  Most of my friends in both countries have kids in their teens or twenties and the English lot ring me up telling me about their children's new jobs/gap years/starting of business, the French ones fill me with woe about how they are paying for their children who still have no jobs after Uni or in many cases how their children are going to have to go abroad to work.

I look out of my window every day and think what an enormously beautiful place I live in.  I have fitted in here, speak the language and have nice neighbours.  Those things however don't pay the bills - which in my experience are every bit as onerous as in the UK - I don't live in the parallel France where the local taxes are 50€.  As I've said we have never been rich but I didn't want to live a simple peasant life in UK and don't want to here.  Unfortunately unless employment prospects improve dramatically here I'll probably be compelled to and that doesn't make for a 'better' life, in my view.

[Russethouse]

You are assuming an awful lot jon - there are lots of members of this forum who are not 'here' as you put it, but in the UK.

BTW the French health provision is in trouble in many ways, there may be changes ahead.

[raindog]

[quote user="jon"]

Ok   but is it really true?Is there not enough space here in France?Are the hospital over crowded?

A problem will always exist in the m inds of those who want something for nothing...and that is not possable...someone else...somewhere will be paying the price if not today but next month.

Why are you all here?

I have explained why I am here it would be nice if you all opened up  rather than remaining critical.

 

[/quote]

Hi Jon, you're criticizing England, but as soon as someone criticizes France you go all grumpy. A better balanced view might be helpfull.

(by the way, I posted you some stuff on Peter Green in your food thread thingy - did you see it?)

[jon]

Oh dear.....no ...I believe that we all have to try a littler harder to accept other peoples views...and knowlege.

I  feel that some of  you are rude rather than objective.

No I did not read  your stuff on Peter Green.

I baked a birthday cake for him...green icing...for his 21st birthday party which took place in my flat in Putney,London.He was my best friends boy friend  and I feel so sad that life has not been a little brighter for him as he was a great musician and songwriter.

[raindog]

Perhaps he has inner peace and happiness even though he gave away all his money.

Bread isn't everything.

Jon, we're not being rude. Some of us have been in France for yonks and know more or less what's going on here. Most of these threads about England is crap, France is wonderful, have been started by people who've been here for about three weeks.

Makes me laugh.[:D]

[jon]

Raindog I have posted something to you in the foodie bit......a small suprise

[jon]

Russethouse I can tell that you welcome me with open arms!Seem to be enjoying yourself finding ways to disagree with me.Are you based in UK or France?You are direct...but are you prepared to offer your story?

 

 

Well its ok ...if the forum members reside in UK then they do not have to worry about the problems in France and can stay in merry England.

It is simple....if a person prefers UK then they should remain there.

 

[jon]

So  Raindog......and all who are no longer in love with France return to UK.

 

[Cerise]

If only life was that simple ..........

[cooperlola]

Blimey, it's getting like Animal Farm on this thread : "Four legs good, two legs better..."

[raindog]

[quote user="jon"]

So  Raindog......and all who are no longer in love with France return to UK.

 

[/quote]

nah, i'm stuck here till the wheels fall off......

[raindog]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Blimey, it's getting like Animal Farm on this thread : "Four legs good, two legs better..."

[/quote]

I always thought it was "Four legs good, two legs bad." [8-)]

Four wheels worse...

Cooper, i've got a bit more time at the moment so i'll try and scan some Le Mans pics soon.

[Gluestick]

[quote] Tom wrote: "I agree that automation should be a good thing. Free up people's time to do something more creative etc.  But a lot of people(myself included) need a reason to get out of bed in the morning. Even if the job is boring.

The French state could stop putting barriers in the way of starting  your own business and make it easier to raise capital.

I guess that's on Sarkozy's list of things to do and one of the things the French voted for." [/quote]

One of the dire problems of any New Wave industrial/commercial strategy is Ludditeism.

Many years ago, for example, Denmark realised that the advent of shipping containers would create huge swathes of unemployment amongst dockworkers.

So the government bit the bullet and created sensible retraining programmes. It worked. Iceland, a charming country also rapidly changed its economic structure from 90% fishing and shipping and now enjoys one of the highest living standards globally.

We all have to accept that traditional business models are now changing very rapidly: the cycle time (i.e. from beginning of change to realisation) becomes smaller and smaller with each successive wave of new technologies. Many years ago, advanced thinkers realised that most people would have to re-train up to four times in their lives. Thus retraning had to become a continuous process. If one thinks back, the introduction of Data Processing changed office life drastically: copy typists were rapidly redundant as early WP systems made their function obsolete. And thus the process continued. In IT itself, mainframe computers gave increasing ground to minis; and then networked PC architecture displaced minis.

Older programmers and analysts enjoyed something of a renaissance in the Y2K era, since they were literal in Pascal, FORTRAN and COBAL, obsolete high level languages.

Unfortunately, Western governments have basically failed to create a viable retraining process.

Having significant experience of Venture Capital in Hi Tech areas, and despite populist opinion, raising capital in the UK is not at all easy!

In fact, raising capital for any start-up or SME business remains fraught with difficulty, unless the promoter can put up serious real assets as collateral.

France has thus far avoided ramping up (or perhaps more correctly, allowed it to be ramped up!) consumer credit: mortgages and indeed any personal loan obligation are strictly controlled by law in terms of affordability. Very sensible!

The UK is now going to pay for its consumer credit binge and housing market insanity! Latest retail figures demonstrate, clearly, just how serious the core problems are. Building an economy based on importing consumer semi-durables and disposables, wharehousing, distribution and retailing same was doomed to fail. As was allowing residential housing to accelerate to unaffordable levels.

Yes, it's easy to start a business in the UK: however, the statistics for business start-ups are sobering indeed. Most fail within one year; few last two years; probably 80% + are non-existant by year three.

Personally, I feel that trying to compare France to the UK on a like-for-like basis is flawed from the beginning. It must be remembered that back in 1957 when France signed the Treaty of Rome (The founding treaty establishing the EEC), 90% of the total French workforce were in agriculture. Now it's circa 10%.

Just because France and the UK are only 22 miles apart and in Europe doesn't mean they are similar! Resistance to change - a common human fraility! -  and the strong determination to preserve a specific lifestyle make any paradigm shift in French socio-economic structure most unlikely.

Whilst France does indeed have core economic problems - like most Western states - it does have an excellent base to slowly change the dynamics: a successful nuclear energy programme, first class roads and railways form a very stable starting point. Whilst the Health Service is an apparent burden as are the social contract and the social security fabric, look at US Medicare and pensions.

Whilst many UK and US commentators like to proclaim that France is an economic basket case, the reality is somewhat different.

If one compares Renault (which as a nationalised industry pioneered leading edge automotive technologies in Formula One, eventually winning the FI World Championship), Citroen and Peugot for example, to Rover and Detroit their success is apparent.

Interesting to note that Ford are selling Land Rover and Jaguar to Tata Motors of India.

France was also a technology leader when it rolled out Minitel: whereas the UK (e.g.) struggled with various unsuccessful Prestel type offerings.

For me, France and the UK offer wildly disparate propositions: the one is not "Better" than the other. Simply, they are different!

Of course, there are many who would like certain changes: Sarkozy and his supporters would dearly love to throw open French state assets to the unconscionable global capital markets since he is a sycophantic greedy capitalist. French business leaders would love to enjoin with the globalisers.

Others, from a personal perspective would like to change various aspects for their own benefit and improvement. That's normal.

Whether such changes would be "Better" for France I doubt, if the many present examples of unfettered greed and the flawed Thatcherist model are carefully considered.

And, as with all things in life, you pays your money and you takes your choice.