jon Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Despite so many posts by many people explaining and detailing the poverty and hardship in France....according to the Mail on Sunday...today 13th Jan 2008....[could have been seeing things but] FRANCE IS RICHER than uk...officially[yes...this time I am shouting...sorry] Maybe that romantic may bring a brighter future to the French economy....and encourage the French[and all who live in France] to work a little harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Oh dear, another of those 'my dad's richer than your dad' debates in the making. As we know, figures can be found to prove almost anything. And the Mail on Sunday, as we also know, takes great pride in saying how poorly Britain is performing in comparison with the past - if it could have found figures to show that Britain was poorer than Albania, for instance, it would have loved to publish those.The World Bank figures for GNI (gross national income) per capita puts France at US $34,810 and UK at US $37,600. So there isn't much in it. I'm afraid I regard that as a more authoritative source than the Mail. And as the Mail on Sunday admits, if you look further down the article (at http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=507916&in_page_id=1811 ) Britain's GDP is marginally larger than France, the fall in relative values is down to the present poor exchange rate between sterling and the euro. The article is, predictably, a plug for the Conservative party and a dig at Gordon Brown. It also provides a good case for Britain joining the euro, but the Mail would never admit to that.As far as I am concerned, both countries are good places in which to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 [quote user="Will"]The World Bank figures for GNI (gross national income) per capita puts France at US $34,810 and UK at US $37,600. So there isn't much in it.[/quote](Ignoring the Mail aspect,) I find it interesting how similar the two countries are (on Will's World Bank figures). People are regularly pointing out how poor people are in France, have much less money but even with reliable figures it seems the difference is not as large as people have suggested in the "lets rubbish France" posts.However, I guess another aspect is the distribution of that income (i.e. few very rich and loads of poor or many people around the average). whenever you get figures, they seem to prompt further questions requiring more data, etc.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 [quote user="Deimos"][quote user="Will"] The World Bank figures for GNI (gross national income) per capita puts France at US $34,810 and UK at US $37,600. So there isn't much in it.[/quote](Ignoring the Mail aspect,) I find it interesting how similar the two countries are (on Will's World Bank figures). People are regularly pointing out how poor people are in France, have much less money but even with reliable figures it seems the difference is not as large as people have suggested in the "lets rubbish France" posts.However, I guess another aspect is the distribution of that income (i.e. few very rich and loads of poor or many people around the average). whenever you get figures, they seem to prompt further questions requiring more data, etc.Ian[/quote]My suspicion (and that is all it is) is that many people on here have settled in rural areas and the impression (here certainly) one gets is that one's neighbours struggle more financially than most of us do. However, my BiL lives in Cassis and travelling down there I realise that one would get a completely different impression, (not in the back streets of Marseilles maybe - I'll grant you) and the area seems incredibly wealthy in comparison with where I live. My house would have cost 4 or 5 times as much, for a start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chessfou Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Yes, according to methodology, there are only 4 or 6 EU countries ahead of the UK:"PPI" methodology:Luxembourg, Netherlands, Denmark, Ireland."Atlas" methodology:Luxembourg, Denmark, Ireland, Sweden, Netherlands, Finland(figures for 2006) source World Bank: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNIPC.pdfThen again, EU stats should (probably) be more accurate for EU countries and they put the UK 8th (for 2006):Luxembourg, Ireland, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and Belgium being ahead.source Eurostat: http://tinyurl.com/jl5jv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 So many of you make the suggestion....and loudly that France is so poor.....and ask new comers "why have you come here....it will not work for you here"So negative!Everyones reasons for lealving UK are different....some will survive better here and others not.Not sure of the "Mails "politics ...I am not driven by the ideas of others...what is sure that the UK is not enjoying good leadership in so many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 However if one weights the bare stats by the loss of value of the £ against the € since 2006, then quite obviously, France now has a higher GDP than the UKSources: both World Bank and the IMF, side by side here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)That said and as always, bare statistics are quite meaningless: which is precisely why they are beloved by politicians preaching to the ill-informed; which must include the ersatz middle englanders who comprise 90+% (probably!) of the Mail readership.To reach some base level conclusions of any significant value, one has to take into account total government debt expressed as a percentage of GDP; GNP; taxation expressed as a percentage of GDP and etc.If, for example, one considers government debt : GDP, to compare the UK to France (or indeed most other Western states) one has to factor in the unfunded pension obligation of the UK government which must be added to total debt: the numbers thereafter change rather worryingly!Perhaps the most sobering reality of any UK financial health analysis of all, is provided by examining the UK government's own National Statistics Office findings on (i) Total capital value of the UK; and, (ii) How this is divided up.Some 66% of the WHOLE value of the UK is represented by Residential Property: the values of infrastructure, factories, warehouses, offices, industry et al, pale into total insignificance.There are lies; damned lies and statistics!Benjamin Disraeli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 [quote user="jon"] So many of you make the suggestion....and loudly that France is so poor.....and ask new comers "why have you come here....it will not work for you here"So negative!Everyones reasons for lealving UK are different....some will survive better here and others not.Not sure of the "Mails "politics ...I am not driven by the ideas of others...what is sure that the UK is not enjoying good leadership in so many ways. [/quote]And France is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 As I have said before, and which has been alluded to in the previous posts, it is my experience that many living in rural areas are poor - particularly when compared with those living in the big cities. French (Parisienne) friends of ours who moved to rural France a few years ago found it very difficult to settle in because they had nothing in common with many in the large village they moved to. They had been university educated, had professional jobs and had travelled all over the world. In comparison, very few in the village had been to university - a number couldn't read or write very well - and virtually no-one had been abroad - in fact many of the children hadn't even seen the sea (barely 2 hours away). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 Possibly...yet to see...but I made a choice.Did you?Are you dissapointed with France.What are you dissapointed with?Just a question.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Framboise Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 France is 5th and England 6th in the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 Yes Scooby there are people of different backgrouds here.There are areas where people are poor and areas where others are fairly rich...at the worst comfortable.Looking around my area it is fairly mixed.Where I came from in London....west I was almost the only English person there....most people spoke English but their backgrounds where different and they self contained themselves.So there were pockets of polish people...and groups of others.My cousin lives in Lincolnshire and she has never been abroad...and she is happy being ripped off by her British boss who does not pay her tax, insurance, holiday pay etc....She earns less than 100 pounds per week.She is afraid to leave the job because she feels she will not get another.In some ways you make your own life.You get no where by making no sacrifes.I did well in UK but it suites me to move on to something different....so here I am! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Mustard Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Why "ersatz middle englanders", Gluestick? These people are the genuine article. They live behind net curtains in places like Paignton and Godalming; they have valances on their beds, pelmets around their curtains and doilies on their coffee tables. They drive a Toyota Aventis which they spend Sunday mornings washing, they have labradors which slobber all over you, they have firm opinions on black people and brown people, (preferring both kinds to the French, whom they consider unspeakable), they believe Mrs Thatcher put the "Great" back into Great Britain, and they read the Daily Mail. Who would have them otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Sort of related - I had a drink with an acquaintance before Christmas who has for some years worked at one of the larger merchant banks. You know - those people whose expert judgement and stewardship of the sub-prime debt market has been so beneficial to the wider economy over the last few months and are always telling governement that they need less regulation to allow them to continue their good works.Anyway, he spent at least an hour lecturing me about how the French economy is a dog's breakfast and the only way forward is to privatise EDF, SNCF, etc, etc.What he actually meant was that banks like his had had to reduce their bonus pool this year and they could really do with some extra easy money - either from fees for their sage advice in carrying out the privatisation or from being able to buy French state assets nice and cheap for a quick resale profit.I kept asking him why if the French economy was such a basket case her GDP was one of the world's largest. This he was unable to answer. I've asked the same question to quite a lot of people and no-one has ever been able to explain this paradox to me. I would genuinely like to know. The money must be coming from somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 Mr mustard if you are begining to describe me.....sorry dear you have it all wrong.I am not the one living in the past! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 Mr mustard I read the Times most days, prefer cats to dogs...hate net curtains and who uses doyles.....How can you assume so much nonsense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 I wish I'd never contributed to this thread. It looks like yet another excuse by the original poster to rubbish Britain at the expense of France (or in some other cases vice versa). I am perfectly happy to be in both countries, neither is perfect. most of the criticisms aimed at one could apply equally well to the other. Why not try a bit of postive thinking about life rather than being negative all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 [quote user="Will"]I wish I'd never contributed to this thread. It looks like yet another excuse by the original poster to rubbish Britain at the expense of France (or in some other cases vice versa). I am perfectly happy to be in both countries, neither is perfect. most of the criticisms aimed at one could apply equally well to the other. Why not try a bit of postive thinking about life rather than being negative all the time?[/quote]Goodness only knows, Will! Perhaps some people are just happier when they're gloomy?Of course, all of us could make lists of what's good and bad about almost any country in the world. Each has its good and bad points. Personally, I'd be happy to live in either France or Britain but in my present circumstances, I've chosen the latter. My o/h and I discussed what would happen if the healthcare situation had forced us back to the UK (it was never going to be a problem for us but was a 'what if' conversation). We concluded that we could have done it and it would not have been the end of the world. We spend many happy years in our old home - we just wanted to enjoy a slightly earlier retirement so dumping the mortgage seemed a great idea and we have always loved the Sarthe. But I'm sure we'd be just as happy in Shropshire or parts of Lancashire or Northumberland (we have always been country bumpkins) and both of us miss London. I've lived in Lancashire, Yorkshire, Penge (SE London), Muswell Hill, Surrey, Sussex, Medway Towns, rural Kent, Malta and France, and can genuinely say that apart from the Medway (for reasons not associated with the area itself), I've been pretty content in all those places when I think about it.Maybe we're a bit wierd, Will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Like you Will...I am more than happy to be in both countries ..........as for the UK very rich .........I am looking forward to tomorrows TV ..Pears Morgan talking to the wealthy about their multy million pound homes on our local spit of sand between the sea and Poole harbour .. I want to hear what they think about their wise investments when they are told one good blow and a decent size wave will put them in the harbour ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Perhaps they are rich enough not to worry about one home........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 Boys sorry that some of you got upset however I only offered the truth as I saw it.You responded and some of you have got me all wrong...so...I have put you right.Have a nice sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Boys ? Doh !![:D][:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanguedocGal Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 [quote user="jon"]Despite so many posts by many people explaining and detailing the poverty and hardship in France....according to the Mail on Sunday...today 13th Jan 2008French.[/quote]Good for you Jon, however, reading your posts on this thread, you, like many Brit expats here, sound as if you need to be reassured about France to justify your move. You then provide yourselves with this reassurance by screaming the France is better than UK nonsense on a regular basis. If it is, then enjoy it, but I wouldn’t go around mouthing that off to many of the younger generation, as many may think you’re senile.If you’ve made the move, then good for you, but why do you come across as insecure?Re Deimos and his ‘rubbishing France’ comment. What exactly does he call rubbishing France as opposed to rubbishing other countries?For those who talk of rubbishing France, perhaps you do not have enough French to keep in touch with what is going on in the country via local and national sources. As stated by many on here before, The DM et al should really not be your point of reference. Imagine a French person living in the UK, getting information on the social, economic and political issues of the UK via the French media. That’s hardly of much value.Don’t worry about how negative you ‘think’ some people on forums are (you’d weep if you heard some of the French then). Believe it or not, being ‘negative’ can also read as ‘realistic’, and it helps to prepare for some of the nasty surprises that a lot of people on here have had recently on the health issue. The head in sand method is rarely effective for very long and it normally just results in the sand sinking and the poor *-rugger going down with it sooner or later.If you’ve moved here with loadddddddddddddddsa money (I’m jealous), your rose tinted specs can be as thick as you want. That’s always the prerogative of the wealthy, irrespective of where they live. I do not know how old you are, but if you’ve moved here for good, then you may be looking at having resources for anything up to 45 years, should you live to a ripe old age.It’s sad that people doing something as major as emigrating are so insecure that they need others to reassure them with ‘positive’ comments. It gives the impression that they're not ready for the experience warts and all. Will, I sympathise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 Not sure of what is going on in those last few paragraphs!But it I will pass no comment and get on with enjoying the sunshine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 [quote user="Colonel Mustard"]Why "ersatz middle englanders", Gluestick? These people are the genuine article. They live behind net curtains in places like Paignton and Godalming; they have valances on their beds, pelmets around their curtains and doilies on their coffee tables. They drive a Toyota Aventis which they spend Sunday mornings washing, they have labradors which slobber all over you, they have firm opinions on black people and brown people, (preferring both kinds to the French, whom they consider unspeakable), they believe Mrs Thatcher put the "Great" back into Great Britain, and they read the Daily Mail. Who would have them otherwise?[/quote]I said ersatz, colonel, since from my perspective and experience, they simply think their secondhand, regurgitated value-set represents what they have been conditioned to aspire to: which makes them feel superior to those they view as hoi polloi.My younger brother is one: his wife is even worse! A retired banker (he would describe himself) who actually was a sort of glorified pen-pushing yes man for a foreign bank and assisted his bosses to destroy great chunks of British industry and the economy.Like so very many........................................Personally, I find most dustmen have more value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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