France or Spain ?

[breizh]

 

On the positive side. I love the €10 button on the petrol pumps. live football on TV Saturday night, and........erm.

[Logan]

I think this last post is a fair assessment. Although I don't personally find the Spanish less friendly or welcoming than the French. On the contrary. The Spanish do not have the French prejudice, racism and puffed up pride in a mythically unique culture.

Spain between July and early September is hell. The remainder of the year it’s agreeable, especially on the coasts before and after the tourist hoards have gone.

Crime is a problem. It’s a problem everywhere, except perhaps rural France where almost nothing stirs.

In the end you have to ask what it is you want from a place?

If it’s a living then avoid France. If it’s fun, sun AND a living, go to Spain. If it’s peace, quiet and vegetables to grow, rural France is for you.

Horses for courses. [:)]

 

 

[inkflo]

Couldn't have put it better myself Logan.

Horses for courses & all that!

The main thing is to live every day as if it were the last & look for the positive in everything.

[Steph1]

Hi Inkflo

Can I ask where you are in France?

[diddly]

Well, I'm going to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons  by saying that I live in Cyprus and am desperate to escape to France!

Life in the sun in Cyprus becomes very boring after the honeymoon period has come to an end and I long for proper culture etc. that France has to offer.

Anybody made a similar move from Cyprus to France?

[valB]

I am glad I started this debate and it has been so interesting to read all the comments so far. It would be nice to hear more ....for or against. Our friends do deny any crime in their area but I still wonder why they HAVE to keep the bars on the windows for the insurance. One thing that surprised us when we drove the were the unfinished buildings eveywhere and obviously just left deserted.  The amount of urbanisation that is still going up everywhere and yet hundreds and hundreds of properties unsold as we were told the property market is very bad there.   Keep them coming  !!!!

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="valB"]Our friends do deny any crime in their area but I still wonder why they HAVE to keep the bars on the windows for the insurance. ...[/quote]

Perhaps their insurance company is taking the Issp, because these bars are a fire hazard. I hated living in a building with them and I know that in Seville in winter, fires are not uncommon. Relatively few homes have central heating, so too many people resort to odd and dangerous types of heaters. Whenever we heard fire engines in winter, we always wondered (with reason) whose paraffin heater under their living room tables had just caught fire.

Perhaps people shouldn’t necessarily take the existence of Iron bars on windows as a sign of insecurity. If you visit North Africa, it’s clear that the Iron Bars influence in Spain comes from Moorish architecture, thus a couple of years before insurance companies got in on the act.  It’s odd that some insurance companies frown on them because they’re a fire hazard and others insist on them.

ValB, is your friend’s place modern and are these bars required on all their windows or just the ground floor ones?    Like you, I’m interested in this thread, so perhaps Davey50 could start another one on Cyprus and France and keep this one for Spain?

Inkflo, where did you live in Spain? It may be useful for people to know where people lived in Spain and where (not your address) they have moved to in France.  It makes a difference in the comparisons. Someone who moves from a sleepy isolated Spanish village to Marseille may not see things in the same way as someone who moved from a more dynamic region to a lost hameau in la France profonde.

Logan,

If it’s a living then avoid France. If it’s fun, sun AND a living, go to Spain. If it’s peace, quiet and vegetables to grow, rural France is for you.

IMO, excellent and spot on!

Edit: this software's font system is rubbish![6]

[inkflo]

[quote user="Steph1"]

Hi Inkflo

Can I ask where you are in France?

[/quote]

The lovely Limousin

[quote user="valB"]Our friends do

deny any crime in their area but I still wonder why they HAVE to keep

the bars on the windows for the insurance. ...[/quote

ValB, is your friend’s place modern and are these bars required on all their windows or just the ground floor ones?    Like

you, I’m interested in this thread, so perhaps Davey50 could start

another one on Cyprus and France and keep this one for Spain?

Inkflo,

where did you live in Spain? It may be useful for people to know where

people lived in Spain and where (not your address) they have moved to

in France.  It makes a difference in the

comparisons. Someone who moves from a sleepy isolated Spanish

village to Marseille may not see things in the same way as someone who

moved from a more dynamic region to a lost hameau in la France profonde.

[/quote]

We

lived in a quiet residential area near Teulada, Northern Costa Blanca.

We did our homework before going out there, rented locally for a while,

got to know the area, spoke to the locals..... The problem was that the

place we left wasn't the place we had moved to.

The rejas ( window

grills) are obligatory for many insurance companies there. We had rejas

and persianas (roll down shutters) but our house was only a couple of

years old. It didn't seem to make a difference though as we were still

burgled twice.

I have known instances where thieves have tied

ropes to the rejas and driven off, wrenching them out of the wall to

gain access to the property. The gangs also leave secret codes outside

houses for other would be burglars, signs to tell them if there is a

dog, the owners work, ar elderly, nothing worth stealing etc. Sometimes

they leave a brick or stone on the drive & if this hasn't been

moved for a few weeks, they know the property is a holiday home &

they probably won't be disturbed.

I don't want to be a doom

& gloom merchant here, & there are many expats who really love

their life out there, but it wasn't for us,  & even friends who

have been out there for over twenty years are desperate to get out. 

Just by the way, we spent time in Cyprus & found the same thing,

i.e. once the holiday feel has worn off, what was there to do?

We

now live in the Limousin, yes we have rain, but we like that as it

keeps everything green, we also have many lovely sunny days, quiet

lanes to stroll down, rivers to sit by, old buildings to look around,

fantastic veg, peace & quiet and great French neighbours.  By far

the biggest advantage though is the minimum amount of crime, &

although nowhere is crime free, we don't have the constant worry that

we will be mugged or burgled.

Just one family's experience, but I hope it helps someone trying to plan their new life.

[Logan]

[quote user="valB"]

The amount of urbanisation that is still going up everywhere and yet hundreds and hundreds of properties unsold as we were told the property market is very bad there.   Keep them coming  !!!!

[/quote]

The Spanish property market has collapsed. There are simply thousands of unsold resale properties in coastal regions which have been on the market for years. The reason for that was the massive number of new build or off plan sales which flooded the market. The developers under cut the resale market. Now even the new build developments have stalled, with hundreds of unfinished developments. The sub-prime crisis, credit crunch and market saturation is to blame. Many developers are facing bankruptcy. I expect the situation to get much worse before the turn around arrives. I would not recommend anyone buy into that market until things improve. It could take quite a while.

[Alan Zoff]

I did wonder at first if it was a bit of a selling ploy but it was noticeable when I went round with the immobilier in rural central France when I was buying 3 years ago, he never locked his car, even when we wandered off on foot to a property well away from the road. The keys would be in the ignition, mobile phone on the seat and we would just leave it with the windows wide open.

And when I wanted to revisit one of the unoccupied houses on his day off he said to feel free - it wasn't locked anyway. (The house didn't even appear to have any locks that I could see. OK, it was to all intents unfurnished - though, some nice vegetables in the garden, Logan - but it would be an open invitation to vandals, drug addicts, squatters, etc in many parts of the world.)

The local Press suggests things have deteriorated a little, as the Police now give occasional warnings about security, but it still has a much safer feel than other places I could mention. I have been told though that one consequence of the Brit invasion in some rural areas is that villains from the towns may now see the countryside as offering more lucrative opportunities.

[Sprogster]

With regards to crime, the better comparison with the Mediteranean areas of Spain, would be the Mediteranean areas of France and unfortunately in Southern France, house and car break ins are endemic. My house in a nice residential area of the Var, is fitted with an alarm, has shutters reinforced with metal bars, security locks and security lights, even though it is on a gated domain with 24 other houses close by. Notwithstanding, at least one of my immediate neighbours is broken into each year,  even if occupied and if not,  often the house being vandalised in the process.

I am sure there are comparable sparsely populated rural areas of inland Spain where crime is very low and people leave the doors of their cars and houses unlocked. Like here in the C.I.!

It is a bit like making broad comparisons between the whole of the UK and France, when most general comparisons are meaningless, unless you compare regions of similar demographics.

 

[Alan Zoff]

I have said the same before, Sprogster, when people have compared "idyllic France" with "lousy Britain". If they are comparing the countryside of one with an inner city of the other, it is a senseless comparison - whichever way round you do it.

[cooperlola]

True Alan.  We lived in the same house in rurual Kent for 28 years, and the key was left on the outside of the door all the time we were in, night and day, even while we slept.  Never a sniff of a burglar.  You have to compare like with like (and you can do that, almost anywhere).

[chessfou]

[quote]If they are comparing the countryside of one with an inner city of the

other, it is a senseless comparison - whichever way round you do it.[/quote][AlanZoff]

Not quite. The difference is the distance (and time) between dodgy areas and quiet countryside.

In the late 1980s we moved from London to the "country." At the time it was almost crime free, even though only a fast 75 min drive from N. London or a fast 60 min drive from E. London. However, a couple of the local towns suffered from a developing "banlieue" and a veritable crime wave.

Here in la France perdue (you know, just that bit more out of the way than la France profonde) we are two and a half hours from the nearest "banlieue" and there aren't any sizeable towns in the region anway. Is it possible to get that far away in England? I don't think so (I used to drive occasionally up to St Andrews and I seem to recall that Newcastle-Edinburgh wasn't much more than 2 hours).

I suppose that the crime wave will eventually reach here but at least it will take a while longer (especially as fuel prices will deter thieves from such long journeys).

[Alan Zoff]

We did the same. In any event, despite her diminutive size, the family corgi would have seen off anyone daft enough to try sneaking in. I used to make damned sure myself she knew it was me when creeping back in the middle of the night. She would take on large cows on the local common so a mere human was no problem.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Alan Zoff"]We did the same. In any event, despite her diminutive size, the family corgi would have seen off anyone daft enough to try sneaking in. I used to make damned sure myself she knew it was me when creeping back in the middle of the night. She would take on large cows on the local common so a mere human was no problem.[/quote][:D]  Troy would have invited them in and given them his ball to play with.  Even if they were wearing a stocking mask and carrying a bag marked "swag."

[Gastines]

I wonder when comparing if posters ever return from whence they departed?  We used to live in Bournemouth.I was in Boscombe the Lower end in my early youth and my wife from East Howe/Kinson. Working class families and all that went with it. Bournemouth centre and coast side was considered the home of fairly wealthy and the shops in Westover Road considered the Bond Street of the south coast but how things change. Boscombe now noted as rife with drugs/prostitution and thieving and Bournemouth noted for sand/sex and sleaze. Popular now as a Stag/Hen Party weekend and usually followed in monday's local rag by reports of various fights/glassings etc . etc. Family holiday resort a thing of the past,thousands of tiny one bed flats for the benefit recipients and a general decline in virtually every aspect of life. We try not to think of what our children/grandchildren put up with and see and hear every day and I suspect it is the same in many area's of the UK. No doubt there are plenty of places in France and Europe in general that also suffer from similar problems but as most of us who chose to live her have picked our surroundings,I believe that we have only ouselves to blame for what we put up with. To the average Uker the thought of owning land bigger than a postage stamp must seem a dream but living in the back of beyond can have it's drawbacks even if it's only feelinf a bit vulnerable. After 4 go's at trying to get what suited us, we have found that living near a town/city does have advantages even if in older age it's the proximity of all services and having neighbours. The advantage in a smaller community like ours but near to everything else, is that everyone knows everyone,the kids/youths don't go round causing trouble as they and their parents soon get a visit and if a burglary occurs,every is soon aware of it, in over 5 years here I've heard of one.

Going back to Uk you may be in for a shock with the rapid decline in everything.

Regards.

[cooperlola]

Yes, I regularly stay a mile away from my old home - and do so 2 or 3 times a year (last time in February).  Nothing seems to have changed much.  Still the same old locals propping up the bar!

Oh, and I have less land than I did in the UK.  The only difference is that I own it - not the building society.

[inkflo]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Yes, I regularly stay a mile away from my old home - and do so 2 or 3 times a year (last time in February).  Nothing seems to have changed much.  Still the same old locals propping up the bar!

Oh, and I have less land than I did in the UK.  The only difference is that I own it - not the building society.

[/quote]

I would agree with the "owning it" bit. It's so expensive now in the UK.

Also, going back for the short term and living in a place day to day, long term are hugely different I think.

[cooperlola]

Hmm.  But one talks to the people who still live there and one thing is obvious, to me at least.  Those who moaned about the UK when I lived there, still do so.  Those who were happy, still are.

[Alan Zoff]

In my experience, people tend to be happy bunnies or miserable sods wherever they might happen to live. Moving country won't change their characters.

[Gastines]

May I respectfully point out that the words miserable/grumpy etc were not used in my posting. I was asking posters if their view of the UK had changed over the last few years. My wife and I have actually been back five times in the last 12 months to look at property in and around our old haunts, from Bournemouth to Salisbury to Bridport and apart from the pleasure of seeing family and friends that's as far as it's got. Dorset in general is a nice county but the point being made was how general services and appearances have declined, plus how the cost of living has escalated.I was quite happy in UK,most of the time ,am very happy here and would be happier still if daughters/grandchildren will follow, and they might.

Regards.

[Alan Zoff]

Sorry Gastines. Mine was a general remark following on from the previous post and not at all aimed at you or anyone else on the thread.

I agree. England has changed, in many respects for the worse. As have other countries with similar problems. It's exaggerated in Britain because of the size of the country and the number of people.

Frankly, I doubt I would have looked at buying in France if I could have found a similar house and plot for the same money in rural Britain. But that wasn't going to happen, was it. France is changing, too, but more slowly - at least in the centre - so it was also a case of perhaps buying some time.

Of course, there will be plenty who will say that post-Thatcher Britain is a great improvement on what went before. In some ways, it no doubt is. But there are invariably flip sides. I could embrace the challenges of modern life, rather than look backwards, but frankly I don't care to. Or rather I would like the best of both, of course. Dream on.

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="Gastines"]

I wonder when comparing if posters ever return from whence they departed?  We used to live in Bournemouth.I was in Boscombe the Lower end in my early youth and my wife from East Howe/Kinson. Working class families and all that went with it. Bournemouth centre and coast side was considered the home of fairly wealthy and the shops in Westover Road considered the Bond Street of the south coast but how things change. Boscombe now noted as rife with drugs/prostitution and thieving and Bournemouth noted for sand/sex and sleaze. Popular now as a Stag/Hen Party weekend and usually followed in monday's local rag by reports of various fights/glassings etc . etc. [/quote]

Gastines, of course it also goes the other way.

There are two areas in central Paris that, in the 80s, were no more than dives (we loved them), and avoided by the good people. These are now so upmarket that flats once worth the equivalent of  £100K then are now worth between 500000 – 700000 euros. Also, in these same areas, you can have a Chambre de Bonne of 6sqm (yes, SIX sqm, we checked last week) at a mere 40K euros upwards.

On the other hand, I now live in an area that was, once upon a time, the Belgravia of my town, but over the last half a century or so has gone the other way due to the greatly reduced fortunes of the rich vigneron families that used to own the magnificent properties. That’s life, I suppose. Who knows, perhaps someday soon, this area will be the new Marais of Languedoc.

I'm sure we can find similar examples (yours and mine) in most cities in most countries.

[LanguedocGal]

Back to Spain.

Sprogster, like you, I think it’s more rational to compare like with like. Compare the crime rate of a densely populated town of 200,000 people to a sparsely populated commune of 1000 residents, for example, gives a terribly misleading overall impression.

Logan, re the price crashes in Spain. I cannot speak for the new developments in coastal regions, as the issues are complex indeed. However, even if prices drop in some of the major towns, it’ll have to be by at least 50% before owners lose out, unless they bought within the last 3 years.  I know people who bought in Seville and Barcelona and whose properties appreciated by up to 300% over 5-15 years. Also, these flats are in lovely old buildings located in or near the town centres, in areas that were once rundown and undesirable, but now highly sought after; nothing resembling those ghastly soulless developments that sprung up in so many coastal regions over the past 20/25 years.

I wish I’d had the intelligence to buy something in a crummy area in central Barcelona 15 years ago. As it happens, if prices crashed 50% (wouldn’t actually wish that on anyone), I may be able to pick up a 45sqm studio.[:(]

What do you think will happen to property prices in major Spanish towns in the medium term?