Selling property in France

[Francelover]

Hi all

As a new member but someone that has happily lived in France for nearly 8 years, I'd like to post a note of caution on this site.

The Internet is full of wise and generally positive advice about the joys of living in France and the ease of buying a French property. Most of that is 100% correct and laudable.

However, if you read the various expat and French property sites, what you won't find is too much discussion and advice in advance about just how dificult it is to sell property in France and how easy it is to become hopelessly stuck.

I am putting a few words together here to try and act as an objective counterbalance to the message that everything in France is great for property owners.

These are the facts:

• We have lived here for 8 years and are perfectly happy - we have no regrets (in general) about having moved here
• For business reasons we need to relocate to another area of France - we are NOT unhappy expats looking to run back to the UK - we simply need to move to elsewhere in France
• We are not in financial difficulties
• We placed our large fully renovated character village centre (rural North-West France) property on the market at the end of 2007 using a base price that was the average of several locals agents' estimations;
• We have advertised locally and extensively on the Internet and have been very flexible on pricing
• In almost three years (admittedly including the worst of the recession) we have received a total of only 6 viewings
• I would not characterise any of the viewings as being serious
• We have not had one single serious enquiry.

What have we learned from this and what message would I like to communicate?

1. You can ignore completely the Immobiliers' constant positive spin regarding the French property market
2. There are simply no buyers (foreign or French) for older properties in this entire area (there are literally hundreds of properties on sale in our area that have been on sale for more than 2 years) this is entirely IRRESPECTIVE of the price
3. Only cheap new pavillon type houses are selling - mainly to French buyers plus properties in some of the more attractive city centres and majormetropolitan areas
4. If you buy an older character rural property in France - you may find it to be virtually unsellable in future.

Let me be clear - I am NOT complaining.  What I am slightly concerned about is that the harsh reality of life in terms of selling French property is just not being objectively communicated at the present time by many websites who concentrate exclusively the mechanics of buying.

My message? Be very sure that you understand that when buying a house here - it may be for life!

Rgds.   

 

 

 

 

[Lori]

I would agree, that is very good advice.

Our home has not been on the market as long as yours, but we suspect it may well be.  We are not in your region either, but the description you gave (most of it anyway) could easily be said about this area too.

I just told my husband, "what you think is one of your greatest assets/investments, may well turn out to be exactly the opposite.  If no one appears to want your asset, it can't really be considered one."

[PaulT]

When we were looking in 2006 - a time when you got lots of euros for your pound houses were taking a long time to sell.

It is the French way of selling properties that for me, as a buyer, seem to make it a time consuming effort.

We did become disillusioned. Houses were never as described and photos interesting. You cannot do a drive-by inspection before deciding you want an internal inspection. You have to go to the Immo, travel to the property and find the description is not of the house, in no way meets the criteria so another wasted viewing. Then the Immo captures you and drives you to look at a property that if the choice was living in it or a cardboard box you would choose the box.

We still joke about the house that was described as having a view of the Pyrenees. This was not apparent so I asked the Immo about it. Was taken in to the attic a chair was supplied to stand on to look out of the Velux and yes, there was a glimpse of the Pyrenees.

[Russethouse]

Francelover - I can't speak for other forums but here members tend to suggest renting before buying when thinking of a move, and they are pretty honest about the downside of life in France and all its aspects.

[krusty]

Sounds like good advice.

But when people talk about the number of years a house has been up for sale , I tend to think there are seasons for selling ....perhaps May to August .

So even though a house has been up for sale since 2007 if look at it from my view it is only up to its 4th season ....just my way of looking at it , what does the panel think ?

[Lori]

According to the agents (and Notaire) we are listed with, visits diminish (read don't happen) between November through March.  So far, our experience coincides with this.

Still, the house is on the market, so you can consider it seasonal, but sellers probably don't look at it that way.  Whatever difference it makes.

[zarathustra]

I was speaking to an estate agent in Charente, and they said they used to have seasonal sales, but now things have changed and a sale could come at any time of the year. I was a little surprised as I always assumed spring and summer would be better months and winter would be dead. France is well known for a slow pace when it comes to the selling of property. Most sellers are patient and don't mind waiting several years, but I can appreciate that would certainly not suit everybody. There seems to be an awful lot up for sale at the moment.

[mint]

After several months of house hunting, there was only house we looked at that was sold .

This was a beautifully renovated property in a very attractive village and the owners reduced the price by tens of thousands. 

[Sprogster]

Excellent advice Francelover, which has been reflected on this forum, as the most often repeated advice from other members has been rent before you buy. Not only because selling French property can be very difficult, especially the old rural properties Brits seem to prefer, but because the associated costs are so high you need to own the property at least five years to have a chance of getting your money back.

[bubbles]

In this part of France we have been told that nothing is sold in July or August.

But then this is a touristy area (66) and most people are in holiday mode - not in the mood for making important life-changing decisions.

[AnOther]

Whilst rent before you buy is good advice and clearly helps in choosing an area I'm not sure how relevant it really is to the issue highlighted by the OP, the time it can take to sell.

It's well known that it's far from uncommon for it to take a couple of years to sell a house in France nevertheless the time honoured maxim that everything will sell at the right price is as true here as anywhere else and I can't help wondering how many of the problems experienced by some Brit DIY owners are of their own making. Unrealistic pricing tops that list and other fairly obvious factors which come into play are poor

quality/bodged renovations and inappropriate/questionable style

choices.

Not so long ago the Immo who we bought our house through told me that for the first time they had begun to turn down commissions because of impossible valuations placed on properties by the sellers. I agree that with the diverse nature of property in France it can be difficult to arrive at an accurate market value however naive calculations such as bought for xxx, spent yyy, therefore must be worth xxx + yyy + a wodge on top for profit, simply do not work and all too often cannot stand up to a reality check.

Ultimately if you need to sell then my advice would be to avoid becoming fixated on your own ideas but be guided by a selection of local Immos - and then knock off as much as you can possibly live with, even if that is 25, 30, 40, or even 50%.

[Pommier]

There are lots of buyers out there (and yes, I'm talking about North West France). We sold our old, part renovated village house at the start of 2010 and had lots of viewers and quite a few offers.

If the house is the correct price it will sell.

[Quillan]

I think the pricing issue is the most important thing. Many Brits seem to think that the French market mirrors the UK one with regards to the increase in value over a certain period which it doesn't. Of course the prices increase, in some areas quite well, in others some are finding they can only get what they paid 5 years ago. Just keep an eye on the agent windows and see what price similar houses are valued at and then use the method that 'Another' suggests and I am sure you won't have too much of a problem selling.

[Russethouse]

Whilst rent before you buy is good advice and clearly helps in choosing

an area I'm not sure how relevant it really is to the issue highlighted

by the OP, the time it can take to sell.

 I get the impression that the OP feels forums such as this give a too rosy picture of living in France and French property sales - as the advice most given here is to rent before you buy this really isn't true of this forum - in fact if anything can make anyone rethink their plans, posting here must be well up on the list ![Www]

[P-D de Rouffignac]

There are numerous reasons why certain properties sell and others don't - priced too high compared with similar local properties, DIY renovations, unfinished renovations, un-appealing or eccentric tastes in decor, old fashioned decor and furnishings in an area where the market consists of young people, changes in the neighbourhood since you bought (roads, school, public buildings that may have blighted the surroundings), unfavourable reputation of the area whether merited or not, etc etc.

For a comprehensive view, I recommend the M6 TV programme 'Maison à vendre' where an estate agent's comments and recommendations give a clue as to why a property has not sold and what needs to be done to make it sell. Invariably results in a sale. Very instructive if you are prepared to put aside the usual prejudices about estate agents for an hour or so.

P-D de R.

[krusty]

I have just been reading that there will be compulsory purchases of house in flood zones early next year , so hopefully lots of potential buyers about.

I will have to get an advert that mentions i`m at 400m so safe from flooding. [;-)]

[danny]

Could I suggest that you try renting your house and then moving to that part of France that work takes you and renting a house there. I suggest that you advertise your house on the basis of try renting it and then if the person likes it , they can buy it at a predetermined price.

We have a house for rent or sale at present, and since we changed to try it before buying the number of enquiries has increased substantially. 2 interested parties have emerged.

The house is a rental house and we do not mind if it rents or sells. However with a good tenant it may solve your problem.

[Francelover]

Hi all

Some good points made. To clarify:

• I don't think the rent before you purchase advice is really relevent - if you buy eventually then the fact that you once rented the property won't make it any easier to sell if you eventually need to.
• I can speak a little for this region and to a lesser extent for parts of the South West - here the problem is nothing to do with pricing.  Many people that have been trying to sell for 2 or 3 years simply can't sell at any price - there are simply no buyers. OK, I accept that if we placed our house for sale at 125euros we'd sell it - but I'm sure you see the point.
• There are a few categories of exception. Older and cheaper properties (say 80kEuros and less) may still sell if they require restoration but there are very fewer buyers around even for those types. The modern pavillons on the slightly out-of-town/village lottisements are still selling - almost exclusively to younger family French family buyers. The more expensive larger modern properties are almost as badly stuck as the older properties but some are still selling to French buyers. Older restored properties of say 100k plus euros, are simply not selling at all.
• The "owners are overpricing" argument just doesn't hold water in many cases I know of. Virtually everybody I know set their price based on Immos advice and have made very significant reductions since - they still can't get any visits or significant interest. I don't know of a single case, French or incomer, where the owners have simply plucked a too-high price out of thin air. I know one Immo who cited a specific property as evidence of overpricing (not ours!), then discovered to his intense embarrasement that the asking price was actually based upon his written recommendation! 
• In terms of advice, I think that there is a shortage on this subject. If you Google "French house sale problems" you'll see what I mean. Page after page after page of Immos and expat sites saying how well the French Market is holding up, how positive things looks for the end of 2010 and 2011.  Try it and you'll I think see what I mean.      

I'll offer my personal perspective and advice (which may be wrong)

In this region there are four different and distinct property markets:

1. The smaller newer and cheaper pavillons typically on the outskirts - almost exclusively French owned and one sector that is still moving
2. Chic city centre houses and apartments in the major cities - still selling a little - mainly to French buyers:
3. Village, small town and rural older properties restored - purchased and restored largely by expats since the early 1990s. A very large number of French buyers have no interest in this property type at all and won't touch them with a bargepole. As the expat buyers have virtually disappeared since 2007, this market is almost completely dead and there is absolutely not the slightest prospect of it picking up.
4. As per '3' but smaller, cheaper and perhaps unrestored (or partly restored) properties. There are still a few (but only a very few) mainly overseas buyers around for this type of property.

If you're an owner of a property in category 3 and perhaps 4, then you're stuck with no realistic prospect of a solution on the horizon.

We may persue the renting-out option.

Just wanted to sound a warning note to the unwary!

Cheers.

 

 

 

[Russethouse]

 Just looking at my local (Uk) paper and one house is being advertised as having an open day..Ok you'd probably get lots of rubber neckers but you never know, something may click !

Bon Chance

[Francelover]

That's a really good idea we hadn't thought of!

Thanks!

I stress we're not bitter, desperate or disgruntled.  It is though quite frustrating and proving to be a significant showstopper in terms of our plans.

I can't see any real mass solution - it will take the UK market to pick up drastically and for them plus other non-French buyers to recover their confidence before these market segments pick-up. I doubt that French buyers will ever spontaneously start buying older rural properties.

I believe they've similar or even worse problems in Spain. Life's never easy is it?

Cheers.

 

[Russethouse]

When you say you are in the NorthWest are we talking Brittany? Normandy? Loire Atlantique ?

[mint]

Don't know if Open Days work in France though, RH, if only because distances are great and interest could be very scant on the ground.

2 days ago, I rang an agent just to ask which hamlet a house was situated in. I only wanted to know to establish whether I wanted to live there and perhaps to drive around and get the feel of the place.  I would, of course, have then been able to decide if I wanted to view.

Back came the reply:  if you'd sign the bon de visite enclosed, I'll tell you where it is.

I suppose agents have to protect their fees, interests, etc.  But, I did find that a bit OTT and, certainly, I have not had any agent refusing to even tell me which location a property was in.

This does support what the someone else has said about agents wasting their own and the prospective purchaser's time.  If you always have to meet an agent to even find out where a house is and go through the rigmarole of arranging an appointment, appointing a meeting place (so that they could physically take you there) and go through a viewing, that's a lot of effort for no reward if it's nothing like what you are looking for.

As someone else has also said, photos on the internet often bear little resemblance to the real thing and you come away, cross and frustrated and vowing never to have dealings with that particular agent ever again!

I have now developed a blunt, if honest answer:  I just say, if you don't mind, I don't think I'll go inside to view this one as it'll just be a total waste of time as it's not the sort of property I am looking for; thank you all the same.

[Russethouse]

Open days are a fairly new idear here too, but in this situation whats to lose ? It may start a trend [:)]

Especially if the Op gets the agent on side, but even if not some advertising would help, as its a new idea maybe the local press would be interested - that couldn't hurt....

A few flowers, coffee on tap, possibly some baked goods on offer to give the impression of something people might want to aspire to......

[mint]

RH, I somehow doubt that anyone would want to aspire to my coffee and baked goods!

[Russethouse]

 Go on, you are too modest !

Of course a glass of something may hit the spot too [:)]