Selling property in France

[Francelover]

We're in La Mayenne - Pays de La Loire.

Comment on photos - it's really tricky to be objective.  I have never seen a 100% perfect house.  We never try and use 'creative' phtography but that's not quite the same thing as saying that we'd expect anyone to take photos of all the negatives of their property and publish those as prominently as the positives.

The Immos could do more of course. Many have simply no idea at all of how to sell in a buyers' market.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Pommier]

When we sold our last house, the agents only brought a couple of viewers. Our own advertising brought lots of viewers, all of them French and all serious buyers. Some were looking for a holiday home, some for a permanent residence.

The price we achieved was in line with valuations.

I wuld agree that over large country houses will struggle to find buyers, especially if home renovated.

[mint]

[quote user="Francelover"]

We're in La Mayenne - Pays de La Loire.

Comment on photos - it's really tricky to be objective.  I have never seen a 100% perfect house.  We never try and use 'creative' phtography but that's not quite the same thing as saying that we'd expect anyone to take photos of all the negatives of their property and publish those as prominently as the positives.

The Immos could do more of course. Many have simply no idea at all of how to sell in a buyers' market.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[/quote]

What you'd never seen photos of unmade beds, children's toys strewn everywhere, washing drying in front of the fire, marks of pictures and mirrors on walls (after said objects have been removed), bare bulbs or wires without even fittings?

I know you are supposed to look past those images to the potential of the property.  I fear for the next agent who tells me that a property has plenty of potential!

Anyway, when I see things such as those described, I think to myself:  well, if they can't even tidy up for the photoshoot, how can I be sure that they have energised themselves so far as to have maintained the property properly?

[bubbles]

Exactly.

The photos our agent took were rubbish.

I eventually paid £100 to get someone to take some IN DAYLIGHT!

[Anton Redman II]

We handed over a disk of photos showing the house clean and in summer. I can and do look past the decor but uncleared washing up and clothes on the floor ?

[maude]

Just recently had another"valuation" to be told that they would only be interested if the price was so low that no effort would be required.thats not selling but running a remunerative charity!!! Maude

[Judith]

[quote user="Francelover"]

The Immos could do more of course. Many have simply no idea at all of how to sell in a buyers' market.

[/quote]

Many have simply no idea at all of how to sell - full stop! 

I only met two agents (when we were buying - we've yet to try and sell!), who had any idea at all - one taking us to see quite inappropriate houses at times, but we did see a lot with her.  One agent, when we walked in and asked to see a house in his window (we'd already seen it from the outside ourselves), seemed quite surprised when someone walked in off the street, and sent his mother to go with us!!!

And I do agree about photos - they bear no resemblance to reality. 

Selling and marketing is one area (along with customer service) where the French really could learn from their anglo-saxon cousins.

[Patf]

I wonder if selling privately is any more successful? There are plenty of sites to advertise, and potential buyers avoid paying the agent's fees.

There are house auctions too.

Don't give up hope - friends of ours here, who built their own house and so had no 10 yr. insurance have just sold after trying for nearly 4 years!

[Sprogster]

I think Francelover's main point is being missed, in that what I believe he is saying is that older rural French properties were primarily favoured by expat buyers, predominately the Brits and Irish. These buyers have all but dissapeared, because of the UK's and Ireland's economic problems, and until or if they return a lot of these properties are effectively unsaleable, as the French are not interested in this type of property and other Europeans tend to buy further south. Meanwhile, as is evident on this and other Forums, a lot of Brits with French property want to sell, as in straightened economic times the second home is the first to go, and of those Brits that moved to France permanently, the facts are that most return and therefore need to sell.

[zarathustra]

[quote user="Sprogster"]I think Francelover's main point is being missed, in that what I believe he is saying is that older rural French properties were primarily favoured by expat buyers, predominately the Brits and Irish. These buyers have all but dissapeared, because of the UK's and Ireland's economic problems, and until or if they return a lot of these properties are effectively unsaleable, as the French are not interested in this type of property and other Europeans tend to buy further south. Meanwhile, as is evident on this and other Forums, a lot of Brits with French property want to sell, as in straightened economic times the second home is the first to go, and of those Brits that moved to France permanently, the facts are that most return and therefore need to sell.[/quote]

This does largely seem to be the case. Having driven through lots of different regions of France in recent times, I've seen a lot of towns and villages (some very old and historic) sprouting outwards at the edges with small new builds, constructed em masse. I've also seen many sites that are marked out for future new build estates. I believe many more French are moving out of the cities, and are leaving rented apartments to own their own homes. New builds do seem to be popular with the French, and I have to say I do not know too many French who have taken on barn renovations. It's unfair to say there aren't French buying old houses, because I know several and others who are searching the market, but generally speaking the types of old housing bought by expats, generally appeals to other expats. With so much on the market, and the exchange rate never quite what it was, it's bound to have a knock on effect. With that said, looking at the exchange rate today, it's just about as good as it's been within the last couple of years... It may be the push needed to send a few more buyers to France.

[mint]

The stopping of the stampedes of Brits (at least according to some media, there are hundreds of thousands) has also to do with the impossibility of getting into the French health system for those that are not retired and do not meet the requirements.

[Will]

[quote user="zarathustra"] ...I have to say I do not know too many French who have taken on barn renovations. It's unfair to say there aren't French buying old houses, because I know several and others who are searching the market, but generally speaking the types of old housing bought by expats, generally appeals to other expats.

[/quote]

Although the above is a personal observation, and I wouldn't disagree with the general sentiment, I think it is a generalisation that is far less true than many forum users think.

Our own longère, which in a loose sense could be described as partly a barn conversion, was undertaken - or rather started - by a Frenchman (a Corsican to be precise) some 15 or more years ago now. But as it had two more French owners before we bought it in 2002 I would be the first to agree that it's not typical. And another 'wreck in a field' further south owned by other family members was eventually bought, and rebuilt, by French.

[Sprogster]

The vast majority of Brits in France are second home owners and in turn they made up by far the largest percentage of foreign buyers in France. As previously mentioned, a second home is a luxury not a necessity and are usually the first to go when someone is feeling the economic pinch. Add to this equation the fact that most banks won't lend at the moment on holiday homes, falling house prices in the UK and weak sterling and it is hardly surprising that many Brits are finding it difficult to sell their property in France. Just thank your lucky stars you do not own a house in Spain, where the situation is even worse!

[mint]

I know this thread is about selling rather than buying property but it's difficult to talk about the one without the other.

Sprogster's comment about second homes has reminded me to say that, when looking at a second home to buy for permanent use, be extra careful that everything works and all systems go. 

Many holiday homes are only used in the summer months, so keep a special watch out for fosses that may need replacing and ensure that there is an adequate heating system in place for the winter months.

Otherwise, be careful to make an offer that reflects the lack of these essential facilities.

[Francelover]

Sounds like we're all pretty much agreeing with each other!

Around here, some French people sometimes complain that it's now impossible to buy older properties for renovation as they're all being or have been snapped up by the etrangers.

That's manifestly wrong (virtually no older properties have been purchased around here since mid 2007 and many still remain needing purchase and renovation).  Our property had stood empty for 2 years before we purchased it. Another one not too far away was purchased by Brits having been empty for 15 years and yet another I know of had been empty for 20.

I know one family who purchased and renovated a house that had stood empty since approximately 1950.

I think these facts, plus common observation, suggests that French buyers just don't want older properties whether they're renovated or not.  There are a few exceptions (coastal properties, chic city centres etc) but it's generally true.

Many have told me that they love 'the dream' of owning a period house but then they get frightened by the thought of the maintenance and running costs. Odd really - given the poor condition of many newer low-quality builds I've seen! 

Once many French buyers see 'pre war' on a description they simply start looking elsewhere.

It's a pity really - for a number of reasons.  One of which is that when the Brits, Irish and other non-French buyers vanish, there is simply no residual French demand to even partly take up the slack. 

It's why great sections of the French property market are totally dead and why so many Brits that want or need to go home, just simply can't.  Those that regarded their French property as a second holiday home and investment may be particularly stuck because their capital not only isn't likely to grow but in fact reduce - and they can't liquidate it anyway.

Sad world n'est pas?

  

 

 

 

 

[Francelover]

Forgot to say.........

It's not only foreigners that own older property.

I know of several cases where French families own and reside in older property and are desperate to sell for career move and other reasons. Some have been trying and failing for literally years to sell and this is having a significant social impact on some families and their professional acitivites.

Taking us back to the start - this is what puzzles me. I see virtually no discussion of this in either the French or British media but it is a big subject and affecting hundreds of thousands of British and French sellers (who in turn, are potential buyers).  Many chains just can't get started yet the only coverage in the media is how well apartment sales are doing in Paris or Lyon etc.

Odd!    

 

[Russethouse]

Call me cynical but if the British media in question have companies advertising who make a living from French property sales or travel to and from France, they are hardly likely to shoot themselves in the foot are they ?[Www]

[Francelover]

Well, yes, you could be right but on the other hand they don't hesitate to cover the UK market doldrums when they happen and the advertisers there must be far more important to them in revenue terms than the relatively niche French or overseas markets.

In the case of France, I suspect the comparative silence in terms of this story is probably more to do with a Paris-centric preoccupation than anything else. It's odd though because even in the regions this story (if you believe it is a story) just is never covered - or at least not that I've seen.

Maybe nobody cares!

[Stan Streason]

Must say I agree with what the OP is trying to say.  When we were looking a couple of years ago it turned out that we preferred the houses already owned by English even if not fully renovated and we therefore assume if and when we come to sell it will probably be to other English.

As I struck a good deal and bought in sterling at a staggeringly low Euro price (translated at 1.06), my French capital gains tax base is very low.  If I were to sell when the English buyers come back (because among other things, presumably the pound is stronger) my French CGT is going to be enormous therefore I always assumed I was holding for the long term (what is it 17 years to avoid French CGT?).

As with investments, properties only get to be a problem when you HAVE to sell.

[just john]

There is of course the problem of matching buyers to sellers, but I know that there are buyers out there, however they do not expect to pay the boom time prices and that means prices 2005 or earlier. Several people looking to my knowledge have made quite reasonable offers which have been rejected as too low. It seems to be taking time for vendors to realise that the market really is, and will continue to be, collapsing, prices being offered now are probably better then they will be for a year or two except for the really exceptional. Equity from inflated prices in the UK market for instance has seriously reduced whether for a holiday or permanent move and the reduced volume of buyers are only going to pay seriously reduced prices.

[mint]

JJ, come back quick and talk to that chap whose house I want to buy?[;-)]

Go on, tell him he's a blithering idiot because, if he doesn't sell to me now, he'll get considerably less in a year or two.

He'll be that much older and prices in the UK  (where he wants to go) by then could be a lot higher!

No, it's all the sellers' fault:  they just won't see commonsense![geek]

Hey, this is only a joke so don't get all uppity with me, please [:P]

 

 

[just john]

Many a true word spoken in jest. It ain't no joke sweet, It is reality, I took a substantial hit on a property bought at peak, and sold at the bottom for personal reasons, but the liquidity helped me move on and make some back too. People who are not obliged to sell, will either sit on their imagined gain, hoping, or settle for liquidity at a (much) lower price. Simple.

Things will get worse before it gets better[8-|]

[mint]

Hm...........very encouraging for buyers but not for sellers.  Of course, buyers are usually also sellers.

I know of 2 friends who sold in France last year when the exchange rate was near parity.  Both had been in France less than 5 years, one of them for less than 3 years.

And, guess what, both made money!  Yes, on the exchange rate alone!

As with many things in life, luck also comes into it somewhere.

[PaulT]

[quote user="Russethouse"]
Call me cynical but if the British media in question have companies advertising who make a living from French property sales or travel to and from France, they are hardly likely to shoot themselves in the foot are they ?[Www]
[/quote]

On a similar tack I once asked a classic car magazine editor why they kept featuring MGBs. His reply, 'it brings in more advertisers'.

No, RH, you are not being cynical and the magazines that own this forum will do nothing to jeapordise their advertising income - without that the magazines would fold as the cover price would not cover costs and drastically increasing it would see sales plummet. So they must have articles that entice people to buy the magazine but ones that do not alienate their advertisers or even have articles that encourage advertising.

 

[Francelover]

Interesting comments though I see several along th lines of "you need to find the market value of your house".

Although I agree in principle, I must disagree in terms of much practice.

I do not know a single seller around here (French or British) who has turned down an offer.  Many Immos are saying (correctly I think) that right now price isn't an issue because there are simply no buyers to sell to. One told me that right now the very few buyers around are offering anywhere between 25-50% below the advertised price (if they offer at all).

Of course, you can't even be 'reasonable' and reduce your price radically if there's nobody there to talk to.

I can't speak for other regions but around here there is no evidence I can see of UK sellers trying to 're-create' the good old days of the 80s and 90s and trying to make huge year-on-year profits when they try to sell.  Most aren't idiots and realise it's tough and a buyer's dream market. Many I know have made massive reductions in their asking prices and still can't get viewers along. Some are prepared to take very substantial losses on the sale versus original buying price and STILL can't find anyone to even look.

It comes back to my basic point, right now in this area there are simply no buyers for these older rural or semi-rural properties. I think the mistake many incomers made was not over price but over saleability. The fact is, if yo purchased a house that had stood empty for 10 years, then even with renovation, was there any reason to think it would ever be more saleable in future?

I suspect the historians will have fun analysing and writing this all up one day!