Help - they are driving me up the wall!!!!!!!!

[Harley]

We have found a buyer for our house, accepted an offer, signed the Compromis De Vente agreeing the name of the purchaser and that it will be a cash sale completed by an agreed date ( approximateley 3 months after signing).  The Agents have since changed the name of the buyer to another family member (outside the 7 day retraction period) and the new buyer has now sought a mortgage.  All this, without telling or asking us about it!!!!  We are hearing different stories all the time but these changes are now threatening the agreed date to sign the Acte De Vente with no fixed completion date even mentioned.  How far are they allowed to go and do we not have a leg to stand on with regard to holding them to the signed Compromis De Vente?  Help please before I swing for someone!!!!!

[Iceni]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing but here goes ...

A signed by both parties Compromis is a binding contract. The notaire is holding the (10%) deposit so surely just toddle on round there and tell him/her to grasp someone warmly by the throat, pay up on the due date or lose the deposit.

BTW don't understand how the agent is involved in all this.

John

not

 

 

[moon]

Are you sure the notaire is involved yet, sounds to me as if you both may have signed some sort of agreement drawn up by the Agent, in which case start driving

[Anton Redman]

[quote]A little knowledge is a dangerous thing but here goes ... A signed by both parties Compromis is a binding contract. The notaire is holding the (10%) deposit so surely just toddle on round there and t...[/quote]

These days the notaire does not receive, or even ask for the deposit until the cooling off period has passed ( based on our experience both buying and selling this year) . However if you have a copy of the compris signed by the first purchasers them you have a pretty strong case for forcing them to complete or pay the 10 % a liquidated damages. However if the new purchasers are prepared to pay the agreed price within a reasonable date of the original date I suggest you go with that. 

[shas]

If you have signed the compromis then your notaire is the person you should be contacting with any problems like this, I find the best way [ am going through the whole head ache mess ] is to fax, It is then on the desk and when they have time, [ are busy ] they do deal with and react to the problem, be patient but not lax.

It does not sound correct, so contact your notaire.

Sharon.

[Owens88]

I am no expert but as I understand it the French system is much more rigid than Britain.

You have received advice to act heavy through the notaire but then be practical if a real buyer (and timescale) emerges from the ashes.  Seems sound to me.

[Harley]

We have visited the Agency today to be told that our negociator (who has gone on holiday) should have informed us in writing, of the changes to the contract.  He didn't!!)  Apparently they are allowed to make these changes as long as it does not affect the completion date (the date agreed on the CdV was no later than the 30th October).  We did not receive any notification of these changes and because of the mortgage application we will now be unable to complete until the end of November.  This now has financial implications for us as we have an agreement to rent another property but will also have to find mortgage payments.  We have an appointment to speak to our Notaire tommorow.  If our Agent had told us at the outset, of the problems raised by our buyer, then all this could have been avoided.  We now have to get to the bottom of why we were not informed and try to seek compensation.  You see so often the expression "let the buyer beware" but let me tell you, the seller also needs to beware.

Thanks guys!

[Lori]

Do be careful.  A friend of ours had a Compromis signed by a French woman from Paris (not that that matters).  As it ended up, she could not obtain a mortgage - not so odd...  However, her son then "said" he would buy the house for her.  But, the Notaire did not draw up a new Compromis with HIS name on it.  When he decided he didn't want the house, there was nothing our friends (also French) could do about it.  The first buyer was out clear as she could not obtain a loan, but when her son came in as the second buyer, the Notaire should have re-written the Compromis under his name, she didn't.  Very unprofessional, but not uncommon here.

Everybody beware....

 

[Deimos]

[quote]We have visited the Agency today to be told that our negociator (who has gone on holiday) should have informed us in writing, of the changes to the contract. He didn't!!) Apparently they are allowed...[/quote]

(Again, I am no expert but), I would have thought that once the compromise is signed you can insist that it remain unchanged. Thus, if the purchaser changes and the new purchaser requires a mortgage, then the status would depend on any of the “let-out” clauses such as the clause that the contract is subject to the purchaser being able to obtain a loan. If the original purchaser was able to get a loan but the “new” purchaser cannot, then I would have thought that somebody on the purchasers side is breaking the contract.

Also, subject to any clauses in the Compromis allowing the purchaser to be “changed”, I would have thought that a Compromis is a contract between two people (or bodies or whatever) and one side cannot unilaterally change who the contract is between without the other parties agreement.

In your case, I would expect that if the purchaser is slipping the completion date then they will be liable for your costs incurred (e.g. additional rental payments, etc.). However, if there are the “let-out clauses then there may be the risk of “pissing-off” the purchaser so they suddenly “cannot get a loan” and thus have a let-out from the compromise. Maybe it depends on how set on your property they are, how good a deal they have, etc. (as the French property market does not appear too lively at the moment).

Ian

[Harley]

As we were not informed of these changes there is no new Compromis De Vente.  We were advised to write a letter stating our financial losses due to delay (caused by the changes which were made without our consent) and to delare that we will accept these changes as long as they pay compensation for our losses and are able complete by the end of November.  However, if we do this then it looks (from your comments) as though the original buyer is off the hook and the daughter then has to sign a new Compromis De Vente which then gives her a 7 day retraction period, so she can also back out and not lose any money.  This leaves us over three months down the line from accepting the original offer with no buyer and no deposit to claim as compensation.  We will have also past the best time frame in which to sell our property.  Have I misunderstood or is this the way it would/could work?

Should we just tell them to adhere to the original contract or pay up?  I can't help but get the feeling that someone is trying to pull a fast one and if we are not very careful we are going to find ourselves out of pocket and having to start all over again. 

[Teamedup]

Sorry but what happened to the deposit they make when they sign the compromis? Have I missed that bit?

Also did they have a clause stating that they could pull out if they couldn't get a mortgage?

 

[Deimos]

Good point about a new Compormis and the 7 day retraction. If that is the case then sounds like it may easily be quite a risk of losing your sale and getting no compensation. One aspect to the French system that I guess is both good and bad is that the Notaire is not working “for you” nor for “the buyer”.

I have no idea about the difference between “changes to Compromis” and “New Compromis”. Maybe it depends on what “let-out” clauses the original Compromis included (e.g. subject to getting a loan”, etc.) as it may be that one of these lets the existing buyer “off-the-hook”. I’d check what “let-out” clauses might be available to the buyer.

You see posts here where people comment on Brits signing a Compromis without being fully aware of its consequences but the same applies to French people as well (maybe more so as they can both fully understand and appreciate the meaning of the document).

Ian

[Deimos]

[quote]Sorry but what happened to the deposit they make when they sign the compromis? Have I missed that bit? Also did they have a clause stating that they could pull out if they couldn't get a mortgage?[/quote]

I believe that on occasions the deposit can be paid (and held by) the estate agent. I know that happened in my case and I was told that was fine by a Very Expensive … organisation. In my case neither I nor the seller was not pulling out so in practice it did not make any difference. I do not know how common this practice is.

Ian

[Ejc]

With our first attempt to buy - we were not careful enough with the suspensive clauses - and when our ownhouse sale fell though at the last minute in England and we couldn't arrange bridging - we ended up not being able to complete the acte as agreed - we then lost our deposit because our french bank was happy to give us a mortgage but we hadn't included the sale of our english house in the suspensive clauses... we made darn well sure that we had sold up before we looked again and are nowe the proud owners of a great place.

Look at your compromis - and you may well be able to take their deposit - go to your notaire, get his advice and follow it.

Good Luck

[Harley]

Has anyone else on this forum had any experience with their buyer being substituted half way through the sale?  Something is sooo not right here.  Will post as we discover more.

[P]

Surely the contract states that the buyer is ........ (the name), not the person that may be announced from time to time. Whilst not knowing anything about French law they must surely be in the wrong and whoever was originally named is responsible for forfeiting the deposit.

[moon]

As I said at the beginning I think this is an agents contract not a notaires, and they do as they please. Tell them no changes original purchaser to complete on time or forfeit deposit. If agency has returned the deposit threaten to sue them.

Bob

[Harley]

Apparently, it is French law that at any time during the sale, the buyer can substitute another buyer.

According to our Notaire, this is the case, as long as no other conditions are affected.  Well they have been!!!!

According to our Agent, the Notaire does not know the law and this is not the case at all!

We have now requested a meeting between the Notaire our agent and ourselves.  We will get to the bottom of this one way or another and when I do, the satisfaction of knowing who has been telling "porkies" is going to be priceless!

[Will]

At the agency with which I have connections it has, apparently, happened several times that for perfectly good reasons things have changed with the buyers or sellers. Although this doesn't stop the sale going through - in fact as things are at present with the market things would have to be pretty bad for a seller to think of pulling out - it does mean that a new compromis de vente has to be drawn up and signed, i.e. agreed, by all parties. It sounds as if this is what should be happening in this case.

I don't think it's a case of a notaire not knowing the law - by definition they know far more than you or I or anybody else who uses this forum. But some are notorious for interpreting the law in such a way that means they don't have to do any extra work. Again, this sounds like a distinct possibility here.

[Harley]

Our agents told us that a substitution could take place on the original CDV and that a second was not necessary and therefore if the substituted buyer withdrew, then it would automatically fall back on the original buyer.  If he then withdrew, he would lose his deposit.  In losing his deposit, the agents would first have to ask permission of our buyer to release the deposit to us and if he refused there would not be a thing we could do about it other than take him to court for the money.

Because it was not just the change of name that was affected, we thought that, legally, there should be a new CDV.  As this has not happened we are getting very suspicious particularly as no-one was going to tell us about any of this.  We seriously think that our buyer is looking for a way out without losing their deposit, and if we sign a second CDV than we are surely playing right into their hands.  This must mean that our first buyer is released and then the second gets seven days to withdraw.     

Our property certainly falls into the category of a holiday home budget and we have had lots of enquiries and people wanting to fix an appointment to view.

[Marc]

I'm fed up with our so-called buyers.  Having had the names

changed and waiting ages, they have now pulled out stating a problem

with finance. (Slightly odd as the house is cheaper than my car!)

Am I right in remembering that finance problems gets them out of the 10% charge?

[Opalienne]

[quote user="Marc"]I'm fed up with our so-called buyers.  Having had the names changed and waiting ages, they have now pulled out stating a problem with finance. (Slightly odd as the house is cheaper than my car!)
Am I right in remembering that finance problems gets them out of the 10% charge?

[/quote]

 

 

Only if there is a clause in the compromis that says the sale is dependent on their ability to get a mortgage.   Otherwise they have to pay up.

[hastobe]

Our compromis (drawn up by a notaire) certainly has a substition

clause.  This effectively says that the purchaser can substitute

another purchaser BUT the clause also states that the original

purchaser remains liable for meeting all the terms of the contract (one

of which is completion by an agreed date) and of finding the purchase

price for the property.  It also states that the original

purchaser cannot receive (or pay) any money for substituting another

purchaser.

With regard to the funds - this will depend if there is a condition

precedent in the contract with regard to the purchaser needing a

mortgage to complete the sale.  If there is, then providing he

cannot obtain a mortgage (any mortgage - so long as it is for the

given term and for less than a predetermined interest rate) he can

withdraw from the sale without forfeiting his deposit.  This

clause usually contains a term to the effect that the purchaser must

apply for a mortgage within a certain time frame (usually days of

signing the compromis) and must notify the vendor that he has made the

appropriate mortgage application and, again, as soon as he is aware

that it will fail (or has been successful).  Our compromis has a

penalty clause in in favour of the purchaser if we do not notify the

vendor (in writing) by the stated time limits.  In the absence of

needing a mortgage then he cannot withdraw - provided of course, that

the 7 day cooling off period has passed.

There is also a clause in our compromis that states that if either

party refuses to complete the sale / purchase within the required time

frame  then the 'injured party' can take the matter to court and the courts can force

the sale / purchase.  If that happens then the recalcitrant party,

as well as selling the house/paying the purchase price, also has

to pay the penalty clause, the court expenses and may be liable to

damages (though if you've just received the house/ purchase price plus

the 10% penalty clause I'm not sure what other damages could be

justified! I guess that depends on the cicumstances.)

I would add that we were suprised how many versions of the compromis de

vente there are.  Whilst most of the terms are broadly similar it

is by no means a standard contract.  We have seen four and they

all looked and read entirely differently (and varied in length from 5

pages to 16 pages!).

Although some terms are dictated by statute (such as the requirement

for a cooling off period) the rest will depend on your own particular

contract so you need to be sure what your compromis actually says...

Hastobe

Just as an aside - why are the agents holding the deposit?  I thought

the deposit should be retained by the notaire (in a separate 'client

monies account').  Any deposit paid by the buyer, even if it is

legitimately returned to the the buyer because they have withdrawn

within the cooling off period, would normally be returned net of the

notaire's expenses incurred to date (which must be met by the

purchaser).  If the agent holds the deposit how can the notaire be

certain of getting paid?

[Rob G]

A couple of slightly incidental points.

Whether the compromis de vente has been drawn up by an estate agent or a notaire is immaterial. In either case, it is a legally binding document once it has been signed by both parties to the transaction. When we bought our house, it was the agent who drew it up and the notaire's involvement only begain later. (In fact, on the compromis we had to specify which notaire we wanted to use.)

The compromis usually (though not necessarily always) states that if either party pulls out after the seven day cooling-off period, for any reason other than those laid down in the "clauses suspensives" (so-called "get-out clauses"), the recalcitrant party must pay a predetermined amount - usually 10% of the purchase price - to the other party. Practice seems to vary widely as to when/whether this 10% is actually ever paid. In our case, we never had to pay a penny until we completed the purchase. But that didn't change the fact that if we had pulled out for no good reason, we would have owed the vendors 10%, for which they could have pursued us through the courts.

Finally, in our case the amount of the notaire's fees was stated on the compromis - it was up to us to contact the notaire and find out what the fees would be. These were paid by us on the day that we completed the house purchase. Imagine our surprise last week, some three months after completion, when along with copies of the signed sales contract and deeds of the house, we received a refund from the notaire of over 500 euros!

Rob

[Debra]

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