NormanH Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 This brilliant article gives a potted history which provides essential background to the recent shootings...http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-brothers-campaign-of-terror-can-be-traced-back-to-algeria-in-1954-9969184.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 It's all very well to keep on blaming history, why not try to improve the situation today by joining in the society that you are now part of, and instead of skulking around and making an excuse of Islam, improve your life like the majority of first; second and third generation immigrants do. What happened in the past is no excuse. Don't forget history, but use the experience to improve the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 We tend to look at it with Western eyes ...Revenge Honor codes ...shame... mean much more to Arabs than people in the West . Failing to seek revenge for any action against them or their families weakens a man in their community's eyes It brings shame on them and their families and reflects on their position in their community and how their community / tribe is seen by others . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Good that you found that Norman as many British people don't understand the difference between how we ran our colonies and how the French ran theirs. A significant difference is that the people there were at the time French citizens and could hold a French passport (if they applied for one). This was the same for other colonies such as Morocco and what we call today Vietnam. When they all became independant many of those, in some cases frightened for their life because they supported the French, fled to France or what they called 'the motherland'. As an example if you ever go to an 'Asiatic' restaurant in France the majority are Vietnamese and not Chinese.Then you have to look at France and how it is run, education for example. Newly qualified teachers and doctors are 'posted', they don't in the whole get to chose where they will work, they are told, bit lie finishing basic training in the army. After a certain number of years they then get the opportunity to choose where they work if there is a job. Those freshly qualified end up in inner city areas because those that have 'done their time' get out as quick as possible. This, for many reasons, ends up with people poorly educated.Although the French will deny it I can tell you from personal experience that France is quite racist, much, much, more than the UK. The FN is a bit like Ukip in that it claims it is not racists (and it's leaders way well not be) yet it attracts many people that are.Another issue is the closing of facilities and services in inner cities where there has been problems. Even places like Carcassonne have areas where the local post office has been closed and deliveries halted because postmen and women refuse to enter these areas to deliver post. Social offices and doctors surgeries have closed for the same reason. The police will not go on foot, only in a car and then in groups of four or more. This leaves the areas further deprived and alienated from the rest of us in France. These are only some of the root causes to these current problems and they have been going on for years. The UK does not have the monopoly on 'sink estates'. This needs to be tackled by the state, these people need help yet they are part of the 'forgotten' and to some unpalatable France. Rather than ignore them and remove services they need to open the services, improve these peoples lives and make them feel included in the rest of France. This really should have been dealt with years ago.The sad thing is it is driving a lot of people out. Chief (UK) Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis spoke to his counterpart in France yesterday to pass on his condolenses. The French Chief Rabbi, Haim Korsia, told him that many Jews are leaving Paris for fear of their life and the famous traditional Jewish market will be closed for the forseable future and many Jewish shops are also closing. This is not for fear of attack by ordinary French people but attack from terrorists. After the shooting at Toulouse in 2012 the Jewish community has been on its guard but this seems to be possibly the final straw. Seems to me the gun and bomb are much mightier than the pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 "Even places like Carcassonne have areas where the local post office has been closed and deliveries halted because postmen and women refuse to enter these areas to deliver post. Social offices and doctors surgeries have closed for the same reason"I know I have been living in one of those areas for 19 years, and posting about it.I am always amused to read about 'the wonderful post woman who will even take the mail for us ' when I can't even get a package delivered in case the postie gets mugged. They bring the yellow slip ready filled in and I have to go and collect.[:)]But I hope people will seriously read that article to get the flavour of the brutality of French colonialisation.Many of the ex-colonials are still in powerful positions and have not forgotten their hankering for the old Algérie francaise.NickP speaks of 'What happened in the past is no excuse. Don't forget history, but use the experience to improve the future.' and that is quite right, but it applies to the French pieds noirs tooA very illuminating example is that the Maire of Béziers (who is a colonialist born in Oran) is changing the name of a street from 19 mars 1962 which is the official date of the end of the Algerian events to Hélie Denoix de Saint-Marc who was one of the OAS generals who rose up against de Gaulle (remember the Day of the Jackal?)So you see how these ex colonialists continue to refuse to let things rest...http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/citations/2014/12/05/25002-20141205ARTFIG00327-menard-veut-debaptiser-une-rue-commemorant-les-accords-d-evian.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 ''Seems to me the gun and bomb are much mightier than the pen.''The pen is mightier than the sword ..........until you meet someone with a basic knowledge of chemistry, metalwork and ballistics'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 In the UK before discrimination became illegal there were adverts, for example, for flats to let with the addition of 'no coloured' and sometimes 'no Irish'. Now of course discrimination no longer occurs.....let me just take my medication.Wonder if it is the same for Algerians in France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 [quote user="Quillan"]The sad thing is it is driving a lot of people out. Chief (UK) Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis spoke to his counterpart in France yesterday to pass on his condolenses. The French Chief Rabbi, Haim Korsia, told him that many Jews are leaving Paris for fear of their life and the famous traditional Jewish market will be closed for the forseable future and many Jewish shops are also closing. This is not for fear of attack by ordinary French people but attack from terrorists. After the shooting at Toulouse in 2012 the Jewish community has been on its guard but this seems to be possibly the final straw. Seems to me the gun and bomb are much mightier than the pen. [/quote]Another sad, and ironic thing is that most of the Jews in Toulouse (where we shop) are from Algeria, Tunisia or Morocco. Where they used to live in relative harmony with their Muslim cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 “The Root of Humiliation” Abusive Identity Checks in France January 26, 2012 This 55-page report says that minority youth, including children as young as 13, are subjected to frequent stops involving lengthy questioning, invasive body pat-downs, and the search of personal belongings. These arbitrary stops can take place even in the absence of any indication of wrongdoing, Human Rights Watch found. Insulting language, including racial slurs, are not uncommon, and some stops involve excessive use of force by the police. http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/france0112ForUpload.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 [quote user="NormanH"] “The Root of Humiliation” Abusive Identity Checks in FranceJanuary 26, 2012 This 55-page report says that minority youth, including children as young as 13, are subjected to frequent stops involving lengthy questioning, invasive body pat-downs, and the search of personal belongings. These arbitrary stops can take place even in the absence of any indication of wrongdoing, Human Rights Watch found. Insulting language, including racial slurs, are not uncommon, and some stops involve excessive use of force by the police. http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/france0112ForUpload.pdf[/quote]And the irony was that today many in Paris were shouting thanks to the police.We have had this a lot in the UK in the past. Whilst the abuse may have stopped if your black the UK your 28 more times likely to be stopped by the police and searched. Perhaps somebody could ask the same question in French on the Internet to see what those figures are here. In France they refer to it "Racial Profiling" because of the ID card system and the ability for police to stop people for ID checks as I understand the little I know.Interestingly only 17 % of UK prisoners were Ethnic to the end of 2013 (Prison Trust) of which 29% were non nationals. Only 4.7% of UK prisoners are Muslim where as in France there is somewhere between 60 and 70% (depending what you read) of the prison population being Muslim. If I knew which website to look on, rather than rely on French newspapers, I might get a better answer. It would also be nice to know by ethnic group as well. With regards to enthic background in French prisons there is very little information although I did find a figure for 1999 which stated that 60.3% were 'black'. If anyone could find (Norman) some proper statistics it might be interesting.These figures to my mind confirm what I, Wooly and others have said that these 'black' French citizens are treated very badly. Put in communes/lotisments, suffer from poor education, lack of job availability because of race and simply forgotten about. It is almost like they are being blamed for whatever went on in Algeria and other French colonies prior to their independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 There are some statistics in that report which I will try to dig out.What is important to realise is that the Colonial mentality and influence is still very strong.Many of the people in powerful positions were born in Algeria as 'pieds noirs' and harbour a bitter resentment towards those who gave them the choice of 'the suitcase or the coffin'..Don't forget that anyone over about 53 could easily have been born in 'French Algeria' or have been brought up by parents who had lived all their lives there.I can't think of an equivalent in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 [quote user="Quillan"]Good that you found that Norman as many British people don't understand the difference between how we ran our colonies and how the French ran theirs. A significant difference is that the people there were at the time French citizens and could hold a French passport (if they applied for one). This was the same for other colonies such as Morocco and what we call today Vietnam[/quote]Actually, on a point of order, there is a further fundamental difference which your generalisation overlooks. Algeria was a French DOM. This is not true of Morocco, Tunisia or indeed the "French" bit of Vietnam, all of which were, in fact, protectorates and not colonies as such. Thus, only Algerians were fully "French" in that Algeria was run as a French overseas department, just as places like La Reunion today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 [quote user="NormanH"]What is important to realise is that the Colonial mentality and influence is still very strong.Many of the people in powerful positions were born in Algeria as 'pieds noirs' and harbour a bitter resentment towards those who gave them the choice of 'the suitcase or the coffin'..[/quote]I find this very interesting as I know some "pieds noir" who were and are "ordinary working citizens". Their story is very different. It seems that when they were forced to evacuate from what can loosely be described as former French North Africa (not just Algeria), the reception that they got in France was appalling.Firstly, the Government had tried hide the size of the influx: in the early stages it was denied that this mass migration was even taking place: at one point saying that lots of people were coming over for holidays! Most faced a tremendous struggle just to even leave: ships were not provided except in extremis.Secondly, the port workers (notoriously controlled by the communists) ensured that whatever baggage and personal effects that were offloaded from the ships got onto land only after accidentally dropping into the water or being otherwise damaged. The CP and its apologists put it about that these incomers were "rich colonists who had exploited the North Africans" and represented them as "landed gentry". Most were far from that - though obviously some could have been thought of in that way. Most had been dispossessed of their property and belongings.Thirdly, very little/nothing had been done to provide accommodation (hence the eventual use of former internment/concentration camps eg Rivesaltes)Lastly, they found themselves grossly discriminated against when trying to find any form of work - in either the public or private sector. Many skilled or qualified people had to take whatever menial job they could wherever they could find it - if they could find a job. Families were broken up by this. Many emigrated to Quebec (and this is where some of the erstwhile OAS members went) or the DOM-TOM if they could. The effects went on for years: if you were white and born in North Africa, you needed to ensure that your children jumped through administrative hoops by the age of 18 otherwise they would not be considered French! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 That is true, but it is the ex-Algerian 'pieds noirs' that I was generalising about.The Maire of my town, associated with the FN, but not a card-carrying member; Éric Zemmour who I have mentioned elsewhere is from an Algerian Jewish family,...Other well-known figures: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_pieds-noirs_c%C3%A9l%C3%A8bres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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