What is a Notaire?

[Collywobble]

Hi

I know what they do, that's not the question.

From what I can tell, they are more qualified/responsible/empowered that a British Notary Public (yes I know there are differences within the UK) but not as qualified/responsible/empowered as a Solicitor?[8-)]

The question is simply one of curiosity.

Cheers

[Llwyncelyn]

Hi Collywobble where shall I start?

Lets start the French end they are essentially Govt appointed guys or girls and who have conducted a period of study and whilst they do give limited advice and support their main role (and no doubt Will will correct me) is to ensure that the Tresor Public gets into its coffers what taxes they say are due and which seemingly are laid down by law.  You will note the use of the phrase 'they say are due'

Again protocol suggests that they are referred to by the title Maitre and I am not sure if there is a feminine title and where one adds another 'e'.  From my standpoint they do not owe a duty of professional care either to the vendor or the purchaser but again Will may or may not challenge that view.

Now to the UK the Notary Public is very much an outdated position and the system is made up of Legal Executives Solicitors and Solicitors with rights of audience in the Higher Courts plain old simple Barristers and QC's or in time of a King KC's then of course its up the ladder to those eminent Winchester types or Stowe who wear lovely coloured robes.  It is convention that to become a QC takes about nineteen years save of course if you are also a MP then the time drops to fifteen years or so. 

The system would have you believe that all of the above save of course for HM Judges have a duty of care to those they represent and they have professional bodies and indeed complaints procedures and if it all goes wrong then its to the Bar Council or the Law Society and then after that to the Legal Services Ombudsman (in our case a Lady and a CBE) and who is not legally qualified.

All of the above have rights of audience in the various courts and in exceptional circumstances even a ordinary person can appear as a McKenzie friend.  As far as I am aware Notaires sit in their rather nice offices and do not have rights of audience.  Avocats do.

I hope the above is of some help and you are welcome to my many law text books as I shall no longer be requiring them that is after I have finished my Phd on the Human Rights aspects of a certain strike in 1984/1985.

rdgs and best wishes

[cooperlola]

Interesting point.  I refer to mine as Madame le Maitre - which is only an assumption because I know that our female mayor is correctly addressed as Madame le Maire! She doesn't seem to object but she may just be being polite to the ignorant Britesse.

[Collywobble]

Hi Llwyncelyn,

With regards to the duty of care and gov. pound of flesh collection aspects, this is more or less what I thought to be the case.   

I had previously been told  that they were about the same level of education and role as a solicitor, however I thought they sat somewhere between a notary public and a conveyancer which seems to be closer to the mark, in a manner.

As I say, I was just curious.

There was a really good documentary on Radio4 a few months back. (I listened to it via the web) It was fascinating, focusing on the interaction between the folk in the communities involved and how they coped with each other once the dust settled. They tend to recycle these things on R4.

Thanks for that and all the best for the Phd.

[Will]

I think Llwyncelyn's description is pretty accurate. It is very difficult to make direct comparisons because the systems in which lawyers operate are so different in France and England. A notaire basically represents the government (and acts as a tax collector) rather than looking after the interests of the individual client as solicitors do. I suppose an avocat in France is rather closer to a solicitor. Female notaires also have the courtesy title of 'maître'.

[tenniswitch]

[quote user="Will"]I think Llwyncelyn's description is pretty accurate. It is very difficult to make direct comparisons because the systems in which lawyers operate are so different in France and England. A notaire basically represents the government (and acts as a tax collector) rather than looking after the interests of the individual client as solicitors do. I suppose an avocat in France is rather closer to a solicitor. Female notaires also have the courtesy title of 'maître'.[/quote]

All that is certainly true in regard to property transfers, but aren't notaires also involved in divorce and adoption proceedings?

[Gardian]

I can add nothing to the above from a legal standpoint, except to say that our dealings were entirely formal and proper.

However ................ the aura in which the gentleman was held by our immobilier (who isn't exactly a shy retiring flower) got right up my nose. One would have thought that one was being introduced to royalty when it came one's 1st meeting (compromis) with himself.  Wait to be called in, seated around the desk, all very pedantic, (though excellent about his insistence that we understood every bloody word of what we were signing).

Fixing a date for the Acte de Vente really got to me.  For us, it was driven by completion in the UK, for which we had 14 days-ish notice.  That gave us an 'anytime during these 2 days' window: for us that could have been 0600, or 22.00, we didn't care.  The drama over 'negotiating' availability with the above-mentioned, nearly drove me and the (Brit) vendor to drink - correction, it did.

Excess of deference IMO & they don't do a particularly good job for either side - essentially a fonctionnaire.  BUT ..... you've got to play the game.   

[AnOther]

At a slight tangent:

I't would seem to be good politics, not to mention of course good manners, to introduce yourself  to your Marie and invite him/her around for drinks & nibbles at some point.

Is this the "done thing" and expected of newcomers or a bit presumptious ?

Who else should one invite, apart from the neighbours and an interpreter of course...!

 

[Hoddy]

I too was astonished by the deference shown to the notaire, but I've now seen it in other places. For example, on being allowed (at a price) into the gardens of the wealthy. I find it a little difficult to understand and hard to stomach.

Making contact with your mayor depends on where you are I think.

Hoddy

[Clarkkent]

To answer the original question, I thought their job was to authenticate transfers of land and other forms of contract. They do not act for either of the parties but make sure that the transfer is completed in accordance with appropriate legal requirements.  Part of this work involves collecting taxes.

They also register wills.

[Collywobble]

There does seem to be lots of deference to ones 'betters'.  A French lass who was known to me, was quite well travelled and admitted to being perplexed by this herself.

Funny for a country that sent a bunch for the high jump in the name of equality .[8-)]

[Will]

[quote user="tenniswitch"]

All that is certainly true in regard to property transfers, but aren't notaires also involved in divorce and adoption proceedings?

[/quote]

Yes, and in inheritance and some business matters. In all of these their duty is to see the law is upheld and the dues are paid, rather than pushing the case of the individual. That's the avocat's job.

The duties are shown at www.notaires.fr (in English if you wish). It's all a quirk of the Napoleonic code - although the profession existed before Napoleon, it is him we have to thank for their present function and status.

I don't understand the apparent deference either. Unless it's because they don't represent either 'side' and by sucking up to them you might get a favour or two?

[Collywobble]

[quote user="Will"] 

The duties are shown at www.notaires.fr (in English if you wish).

[/quote]

Being a woosie, I looked in the English section and noticed this tidbit   http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/notaires.nsf/V_TC_PUB/EXEMPTING-HOME-SEIZURE

"The Law on Economic Initiative of 1 August 2003 is designed to make it easier to start and transfer a business.

Under this law, any natural person who is self-employed may have a statement prepared by a notaire

and filed with the mortgage registry, stipulating that his or her

primary residence may not be seized. This protection applies to debts

incurred in the course of one’s business. The value of such a provision

should be apparent to any self-employed worker (tradespeople,

shopkeepers, farmers, professionals)."

This sounds like a good use of a Notaire to me![:P] Without having sought legal advice on the matter (as I only just stumbled over it) it would seem a prudent thing to do.

It would be a shame should anyone who reads this forum not know about this and loose their home. Perhaps the link could be included in one of the 'stickies'?  If it already is, then I stand corrected for laziness in not having already read it.[:)]

There is more info at:

 http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/notaires.nsf/V_TC_PUB/ENGLISH-BUSINESS        (English)

or

http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/notaires.nsf/V_TC_PUB/FRANCE-ENTREPRISE      (Français)

Cheers

[Will]

CW, that is an interesting fact, that I for one had not heard about. Typically French, it seems to contadict the notaires' wisdom that the CU marriage regime is not suitable if you have a small (i.e. not SARL or similar) business as it lays the family home vulnerable to business debts. It appears to offer a way around that difficulty.

I wonder if it only refers to mortgage debts, or if it has been superseded by something else?

[Llwyncelyn]

Gardian I know exactly what your mean.  Our Notaire arrived in his splendid hacking type of jacket wonderful polished shoes and basically adopted an approach of looking down at one.  He was a pain.

However we had to play the game and we had to sign for the house.

Nevertheless he was pompous and I then delivered and that is the word graphic details of what my professional is and was and that in my considered opinion Notaires are glorified civil servants (not that I have anything whatsoever against Civil Servants) and I had seen enough of these in my time and here I expected to be treated with the 'customary French civility' and next time around and when I sold my house I would not be coming through his rather wonderful front door but book and cover.......................

[AnOther]

[quote user="Will"]Unless it's because they don't represent either 'side' and by sucking up to them you might get a favour or two?[/quote]Hey, whatever it takes if you want or need it badly enough...........[;-)] [Www] [:$] [6] [kiss] [:D] [:@]

[Sunday Driver]

My notaire looks like Jamie Lee Curtis and laughs at my jokes.....[:D]

 

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]My notaire looks like Jamie Lee Curtis and laughs at my jokes.....[:D][/quote]Is that supposed to be good or bad.......................[blink]

[cooperlola]

Ernie, my own instinct would be to go and see your mayor when you've moved in.  I wouldn't go so far as to invite him/her to a "do" but as said above, I guess that depends on your locality.  Your neighbours are probably best placed to advise you on this.

[AnOther]

I was planning on doing at least that as a courtesy if nothing else, how much further to go I'll play by ear.

Mind you, although our house doesn't need any structural work, decoratively it probably hasn't been touched 30 years so is in desperate need of a complete interior revamp before anybody gets invited, I'm sure you can imagine what I mean [+o(]

[cooperlola]

Yes, we own the t-shirts!!

[Collywobble]

[quote user="Will"]

CW, that is an interesting fact, that I for one had not heard about. Typically French, it seems to contadict the notaires' wisdom that the CU marriage regime is not suitable if you have a small (i.e. not SARL or similar) business as it lays the family home vulnerable to business debts. It appears to offer a way around that difficulty.

I wonder if it only refers to mortgage debts, or if it has been superseded by something else?

[/quote]

Will, like I say, I couldn't see anything like "However, you then become liable...." but that bit probably wasn't translated to English [:)] There was a brief example of someone doing this when they started a small business. So I gathered that it wasn't one of these things that needed to be declared at the time of purchase. which is nice.

Cheers

[tenniswitch]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Ernie, my own instinct would be to go and see your mayor when you've moved in.  I wouldn't go so far as to invite him/her to a "do" but as said above, I guess that depends on your locality.  Your neighbours are probably best placed to advise you on this.[/quote]

I agree that it's a good idea, at least in a small ville, to go and introduce your self to M. (or Mme.) le Maire.  And to the Mairie secretary (who is the person who generally gets jobs done and can be a font of information).  I think it suggests to them that you want to be a part of the community, and the gesture will generally be appreciated.

I would wait and get more info about village customs before issuing any invitations.  One doesn't want to begin by doing something pas normal.

[tenniswitch]

[quote user="Gardian"]

I can add nothing to the above from a legal standpoint, except to say that our dealings were entirely formal and proper.

However ................ the aura in which the gentleman was held by our immobilier (who isn't exactly a shy retiring flower) got right up my nose. One would have thought that one was being introduced to royalty when it came one's 1st meeting (compromis) with himself.  Wait to be called in, seated around the desk, all very pedantic, (though excellent about his insistence that we understood every bloody word of what we were signing).

Fixing a date for the Acte de Vente really got to me.  For us, it was driven by completion in the UK, for which we had 14 days-ish notice.  That gave us an 'anytime during these 2 days' window: for us that could have been 0600, or 22.00, we didn't care.  The drama over 'negotiating' availability with the above-mentioned, nearly drove me and the (Brit) vendor to drink - correction, it did.

Excess of deference IMO & they don't do a particularly good job for either side - essentially a fonctionnaire.  BUT ..... you've got to play the game.   

[/quote]

Our notaires, while very busy, are quite nice and pleasant; maybe it's because we're in rather a rural area and their family has been here forever.  I did notice that at our latest closing, the sellers seemed a bit deferent to the notaire, but I chalked it up to educational/class differences.  The class system is alive and well in France in a way that n'existe pas in the US.  (Although, it reminded me a bit of the way some people in the US defer to doctors.)

[Collywobble]

[quote user="tenniswitch"]

The class system is alive and well in France in a way that n'existe pas in the US.  (Although, it reminded me a bit of the way some people in the US defer to doctors.)

[/quote]

In the opinion of whom?  Ask some doctor's maid and see what they think. Or maybe the $3ph (illegal) mexican gardener. I'm sure they live in a different US to most of middle class suburbia (which is where I live).   I'm not sure which US you're talking about, but obviously not the one I'm in.  

There is a huge class system here, but it's not around your surname/heritage (unless you are a Kennedy), but around what you do, how well known you are and how much $$$ you are worth, what Alumni you are part of (that one makes me sick), golf club you are in,  etc. My god, I know people who are card carrying members of  "Descendents of the the Mayflower". How pretentious.

I have seen more shows about royalty, here  than in all my life. People here are obsessed with status.

That said, I have some fantastic American friends who are really down to earth and share most of the above thoughts. Mind you, they are, in general, well travelled, as I assume you  are yourself  TW.

Right, no hard feelings and back to France

Cheers[B]